Fat dog - getting fit - slightly lame

skinnydipper said:
Nobody has said its fine to have an overweight dog, excess weight reduces lifespan. Fat is toxic and inflammatory whether it be canine or human.

I was talking about pain and the right to decide whether it is okay to leave a dog in pain. Just to be clear - it is not okay.

My preference is for a trained professional to evaluate my dog, diagnose and advise on treatment.

I know you prefer to do things your way when it comes to the health of your pet and disregard veterinary advice. As a result of that I would neither seek nor take your advice.
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You have no idea if the dog is in pain or not .....maybe the difference between us is having some common sense instead of a blind faith in vets ......who knows, non of us know this dog so we are asking about an imaginary scenario and if it was my dog I would call concentrate on losing weight and getting fit. I appreciate if it was yours it would be some medication etc etc. Let’s just agree to disagree as non of us know the full picture. We all make decisions for our own animals as well as ourselves and we probably all hope we are doing our best !
 
bonny said:
You have no idea if the dog is in pain or not .....maybe the difference between us is having some common sense instead of a blind faith in vets ......who knows, non of us know this dog so we are asking about an imaginary scenario and if it was my dog I would call concentrate on losing weight and getting fit. I appreciate if it was yours it would be some medication etc etc. Let’s just agree to disagree as non of us know the full picture. We all make decisions for our own animals as well as ourselves and we probably all hope we are doing our best !
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:rolleyes:
 
Common sense is actually knowing that an animal does not bear full weight on a limb, because it is experiencing some form of discomfort. That some people would rather ignore pain or discomfort in an animal and choose to focus solely on the weight, when one is possibly married to the other, because they don't trust a vet, is not 'common sense' in my world.
 
bonny said:
You have no idea if the dog is in pain or not
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Dog was limping so clearly was in enough pain to have a noticeably lame gait.
What a person chooses to do about that is a different matter, but yes we do know the dog was in pain and quite possibly still is.
Would I rush it to the overnight vet as an emergency for a couple of lame steps - probably not. For my own fit dogs I probably would just rest a few days and keep an eye on it. For an overweight dog who needs the exercise book a vet check if only to prevent the risk of causing further damage
 
Part of being an owner is knowing what constitutes as serious enough for a vet visit - can you imagine how difficult it would be to get a vet appointment if everyone took their pets in for EVERY situation in which they weren't always 100%?
 
SpringArising said:
Part of being an owner is knowing what constitutes as serious enough for a vet visit - can you imagine how difficult it would be to get a vet appointment if everyone took their pets in for EVERY situation in which they weren't always 100%?
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a new dog with an unknown medical history and lameness problem constitutes as serious enough for a non emergency vet visit. A dog you know well or a dog with known medical history may not, depends on the dog, for example one of my dogs has a known arthritic knee, if he goes lame on that leg we rest him for a few days and then crack on, if he goes lame on any other leg he goes to the vets, My other dog is fit as a fiddle and has a known medical history which is completely clear, if she went lame she would be off to the vets to make sure she hasnt done something like damaged a cruciate ligament.
Using the cruciate ligament as an example, they are tricky to fix, dogs do not always show up massively lame when they damage them but continuing to exercise a dog with a damaged cruciate will make the damage much much worse and sometimes leave the dog with life long pain.
 
It’s probably a good idea to get any new dog checked over by the vet in any event, particularly for a new owner with an obese dog.

Regarding the paw on its own...

My first instinct would be stone, thorn, seed or other debris between pads/toes so I would check the paw thoroughly, trim away the fluff from between the pads and so forth. I’d have a very gentle feel the joints on either side and see if one felt particularly hot, caused the dog to react or felt mechanically unsound. If I found anything I couldn’t fix with some tweezers and antiseptic it’d be off to the vet.

Failing that, if it was only minor stiffness I would probably keep a close eye on it for 24-48 hrs and if it persisted I’d take the dog to the vet, sooner if it became worse.

It did make me wonder, do dogs pads get soft if they aren’t exercised for a prolonged period? I’ve never had a dog who hasn’t been walking regularly.

Pain in dogs can be difficult to quantitatively assess. I’ve owned dogs who regarded a bur round their bum as a mortal wound but would carry on obliviously when they’ve managed to gash themselves on something so severely it required many stitches.

Generally speaking when in doubt it’s usually best to seek out veterinary advice, however in the interests of not single handedly paying for the vet’s new Porsche, I would give a little more latitude to a poor paw than I would any sign of internal distress.
 
My younger dog has very sensitive feed/pads, he will come up lame if he is walked on a rocky surface, he always lived in a town and was usually walked on a pavement, the park or in a forest. I do have to be careful where I walk him and choose places with paths or a boardwalk, and he is prone to slipping and pratfalls. When I got him, I had to build up his fitness as he had been kennelled for a few months because of illness, although he was not overweight, and I did get him completely re x-rayed after a few months when he suffered a minor injury, I was not sure where it had emanated from, he did have an old shoulder injury, he is a mature dog and at that time I did not want to put him into a programme of work without being completely sure he was sound.
The older one was raised in the mountains and is tough as old boots, can go anywhere, and is extremely sure-footed, rarely lame.
 
Dogs are animals. All animals will walk on all 4 legs unless in pain or there's a mechanical illness preventing proper placement of the feet. Mechanical lameness is rare, pain is common. Many mechanical lamenesses also involve pain.

10 minutes is a very short amount of walking to be showing lameness and pain after.
I'm fat but I can walk a lot without pain for quite some time-my muscles might burn but I won't be actively limping after a long walk....think on the level of discomfort required before you, as a human, start to limp...and then remember animals hide pain as a natural survival mechanism.

It is not normal to be limping after gentle exercise in a young animal, even if they are overweight. The weight won't help anything but its unlikely to be the sole reason for the limping. Being fat isn't painful. It does increase your risk of orthopedic and musculoskeletal issues though. It may, however, be why a young collie is fat. Painful animals move less and don't burn off as much energy.

Check the limb top to bottom for anything obvious esp around the feet and nails.Check and see if the muscle mass over both shoulders matches.

Get a video of the dog from a sideways angle and a straight on view-front and behind if possible. With video showing head body and legs in all shots to show off the limp if possible(they like to make liars of people at the vets-the power of adrenaline kicking in and masking things cannot be underestimated)

Alternatively given hes only lame when walked, provide strict rest while on a low-calorie diet for two weeks then re-trial exercise. Still lame after 2 weeks of rest and weight loss ( 2 weeks allows the body to heal most minor issues) = you have a problem that is quite likely going to need medical intervention.

Continually exercising an area that's causing discomfort is rarely a good idea. Rest is rarely a bad idea. Continuing to exercise an injury is a good way to make things worse.

Multiple meals of a low calorie balanced food that produces a calorie deficit is usually the easiest way to weight loss in dogs.
You cannot out-exercise a bad diet...and its very easy to overfeed.

There are multiple charities out there that will help the dog if your sister cannot afford it.
However if your sister isn't prepared to provide basic medical treatment to an animal in her care I would suggest she needs to rehome the dog to someone who is willing to care for it appropriately in the longterm. What's she going to do if it actually gets sick? this is only a minor issue compared to some things that can go wrong with a pet.

Ironically the car I drive...a 2006 corolla hatchback. I can dream of a Porsche-maybe someday i'll be able to argue its a work expense like the large animal vets do with their vehicles :P
 
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I don't think you're a vet in this country are you Aru? In the UK it's the small animal vets that drive the smart cars, the large animal work is pretty badly paid for a professional job with a five year degree. It's always so interesting to find out how things work in other countries :)

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ycbm said:
I don't think you're a vet in this country are you Aru? In the UK it's the small animal vets that drive the smart cars, the large animal work is pretty badly paid for a professional job with a five year degree. It's always so interesting to find out how things work in other countries :)

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I'm in Australia. Small animal only. I make 40 Australia dollars an hour-in UK money that's around 20.17 pounds an hour. That's before tax...On salary so no overtime pay.
I'm considered to be quite well paid for my level of experience-8 years experience. Comfortable with solo work.able to preform most surgeries except orthopedics, and able for most consults with complex cases-though I do occasionally refer to our local specialists.
I run my current practice as the lead vet but do not own it(corporate). As a general rule people dramatically overestimate how much a vet actually makes. It's expensive to run a hospital. This is my first year running a practice...and the conclusion I've come to is I'm glad I haven't bought the place.

I didn't do vet med for the money. If I wanted to make money Id have done human medicine...like so many people advised my 19-year-old self lol
I enjoy my job but I won't be owning a Porsche any time soon.

That said sometimes I dream of giving it all up and buying some land to just go breed dogs instead and never talk to a human again lol. But its a way of life as much as anything else...which is how I still end up talking dogs in my time off :p
 
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My North Manchester vets certainly don't have fancy cars either - in fact mine quite often takes consult charges etc off a bill if she thinks it's going to be a significant one. They don't really push any food etc either, they do sell coats and toys but at a pretty competitive rate and I'm pretty sure that goes to a local animal charity. They're super practical and almost always go down the most straightforward route without encouraging pricey investigations although they do offer them where necessary. All in all I have a lot of respect for them and will continue to treasure them.
 
ycbm said:
Clearly ? You're obviously too soft to charge people
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Have you been speaking to my boss? ?

And yes even though my carriages are both second hand similar vintage to the cars they have all the mod cons I want on them and are worth more than Kathy KA ? I do spend pretty much everything on my eyewatering hobby so the car comment was tongue in cheek!

Pay is slightly better in the UK than Oz I think, but much worse than the USA. Last year I ran a corporate branch practice on approx 20.86 an hour (with plenty of unpaid overtime) and that was better than most my peers for a ‘day’ job and represented a 50% payrise over 18 months.
 
Vets, what a bunch of bastards, driving crappy cars and coming onto internet forums giving out advice for free **triple axle eye roll**

One of my vets does drive a very fancy car. He's earned it, he's earned every penny, fair play to him.
The orthopedic vet I used last year knew I wasn't insured, so she referred me to a cheaper place closer to home, to get the x-rays done.
Yes, some vets take the hand, but there are plenty of very good ones too.
Some people on this forum sound like they one got turned down for a date by Noel Fitzpatrick lol.
 
I take offense to that....I love my crappy car and it's incredibly reliable despite all the abuse and neglect I throw at the poor machine...TOYOTAS FOR THE WIN!

I do wonder why so many people resent vets making money though. It never seems to be as much of an issue for the human Drs- Ironically I have a brother whos is a GP and graduated the same year I did. We get to swap stories and ideas all the time. neither of us would play job swap!

I've always found it a bit interesting because it's worldwide so it cannot just be blamed on the NHS covering humans' medical costs in the Uk.
Is it down to a lower value being seen for on a dog's life over humans? There's definitely an element of that involved for some but not all I think.
Or is because of guilt due to financial restrictions-they exist and it's crappy but we all have a limit on what we can do!
I guess its easier to blame and shift responsibility onto the expensive vets rather than delve into the guilt/less than pleasant reasons on why you don't want or cant to spend money on an animal's care.
Or maybe it's just a lack of faith in medicine full stop-again fair enough it's not a cure-all situation and the pros and cons to everything...
Or is it ignorance and not realising we can prevent suffering? or having to deal with the idea that animals feel pain too and by not wanting to deal with the financial burden we can cause suffering via out actions...so many possibilities.
Is it the values we as humans place on animals-everyone is different in that and even different animals have different values to us all.
But I've always found it fascinating all the same.

P.s I grew up in a rural house that straight up did not use vets for our pets. We had lots of outdoor dogs and multiple small pets. My only young personal exposure to veterinary was too large animal vets on family farms or yards until I was a teen. Farm animals had financial value therefore they were treated as needed to keep them alive and well-or as required by gov with tb testing.
Lol if my parents could see me now...I suspect they would be somewhat baffled at the lengths and finances people put into keeping their dogs alive and healthy. My values have changed over the years as well. My current dog is the first animal I have ever chosen to insure as it happens. I blame the human-animal bond thing.

Interestingly in Noel Fitzpatrick book he mentions something similar to this with his mother...shes his biggest supporter in many ways-per the man himself...but is also completely baffled by the level of what he does and seemed not quite understanding that his job as a surgeon to dogs is something many people do value.
Or that things he's doing are at times seen as groundbreaking. Because he's not a real dr/surgeon after all he JUST works on animals.
 
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It's a really interesting topic for sure.
I pointed out that a dog wasn't right weeks and weeks ago. I know someone else did similar a few weeks after that, and gave them the number of the orthopedic vet I went to. And then again, last week - and it was only then **when there was an audience** that the person said, my goodness, we never noticed, oh yes, we will go to the vet, first thing on Monday. They'd just lost a dog a few months before that, who had really gone through the mill, their dogs are all insured, so I imagine it was more a case of not wanting to think or believe that this dog was hurting, so soon after losing another dog and 'going through it all again', rather than avoiding the expense.
It will probably be nothing more than a tweak, but I don't think that the intervening weeks of running and jumping and training/bursts of high impact activity, will have helped in the interim :(

PS I thought my younger dog was dying of something horrible a few weeks ago, I was stressed to high heaven, I emailed a huge monologue to the vet with the fancy car, who had treated him in his youth. This is a guy I have known my whole life, he is a go-to guy for my breed. Yes, he is eye-wateringly expensive, I don't go to him for routine jobs, but the fact that he called me back, talked through everything and calmed me down and got me a quick appointment and threw everything he could at what turned out to be something relatively mild, was worth the initial shock when I got to the card machine ;)
Plus he's not a wimp and doesn't flinch when examining the yowling melodramatic beast and trusts me that I have his head solidly wodged between my knees lol.
 
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Aru said:
I'm in Australia. Small animal only. I make 40 Australia dollars an hour-in UK money that's around 20.17 pounds an hour. That's before tax...On salary so no overtime pay.
I'm considered to be quite well paid for my level of experience-8 years experience. Comfortable with solo work.able to preform most surgeries except orthopedics, and able for most consults with complex cases-though I do occasionally refer to our local specialists.
I run my current practice as the lead vet but do not own it(corporate). As a general rule people dramatically overestimate how much a vet actually makes. It's expensive to run a hospital. This is my first year running a practice...and the conclusion I've come to is I'm glad I haven't bought the place.

I didn't do vet med for the money. If I wanted to make money Id have done human medicine...like so many people advised my 19-year-old self lol
I enjoy my job but I won't be owning a Porsche any time soon.

That said sometimes I dream of giving it all up and buying some land to just go breed dogs instead and never talk to a human again lol. But its a way of life as much as anything else...which is how I still end up talking dogs in my time off :p
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The way to make money as a UK vet is to own the practice and do only small animal in a reasonably affluent area.

Outside of that, vets really don't get the levels of remuneration that you'd expect for a profession that takes so long to qualify.

My horse vet, practice owner, tells me he's finding it very difficult to recruit vets when they see what they can earn without doing shifts if they move to small animal.

It's a bit of a joke in the UK, the smaller the animal, the bigger the bill :)



PS I'm in Cheshire. I can reduce my bills for cats significantly by driving an extra five miles to towns in Derbyshire or Staffordshire
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Humans are incredibly complex and complicated in the way we think. it's interesting in how much it does impact the way we treat our dogs though!
I've had several people tell me they only change to us as their new vet as they couldn't face going into their old vets because that's where their last pet was pts and they couldn't face the place again or in other cases when they delayed and delayed in coming in because they could see symptoms they were worried were serious and mentally could not cope with the dog being sick on top of other life stresses at the time.

This is the part people who love animals and want to be vets forget..... All animals come with the owner and you have to care for the owner as well as the pet in a lot of cases. Most people are good and just want to do their best within their means but we are a very interesting species.
 
Aru said:
Humans are incredibly complex and complicated in the way we think. it's interesting in how much it does impact the way we treat our dogs though!
I've had several people tell me they only change to us as their new vet as they couldn't face going into their old vets because that's where their last pet was pts and they couldn't face the place again or in other cases when they delayed and delayed in coming in because they could see symptoms they were worried were serious and mentally could not cope with the dog being sick on top of other life stresses at the time.

This is the part people who love animals and want to be vets forget..... All animals come with the owner and you have to care for the owner as well as the pet in a lot of cases. Most people are good and just want to do their best within their means but we are a very interesting species.
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Totally, I think the vet I referenced above knows what a flapper I am and to be honest the phone call was the best bit of the whole process. The dog is fine and in great form and everyone is telling me how well he looks, when I thought he was at death's door :p

Compared to the large animal vet in the village where my mum lives, there are stories about him doing operations on dogs on a table in the bar that he also owns, and couldn't really get his head around treating small animals. He also doesn't like serving women in the bar and prefers them to wait in the lounge :p
 
In October I took on my mothers lurcher shes an older dog. 12ish I think well I know she was being fed to often and excised well not all .
she was way too fat .
I fed her a small amount of high quality kibble twice daily and allowed her to self exercise in the garden .
the weight dropped off her and she self exercised to comfort she now looks great full of energy .
the advise to let her self exercise was good advice it’s worked well .
Op I would talk to a vet it may be the collie needs anti inflammatory drugs are needed .
 
CC those kind of vets are worth their weight in gold. My go-to is currently on maternity leave but despite this, during my last flap demanded that I WhatsApp her a picture of my dog's septic arsehole immediately. :oops:

IMO the rise of the corporates has had a huge effect on pay and conditions in the industry, some for the better, some for the worse. The small independent ycbm describes is a vanishingly rare thing.
 
ycbm said:
The way to make money as a UK vet is to own the practice and do only small animal in a reasonably affluent area.

Outside of that, vets really don't get the levels of remuneration that you'd expect for a profession that takes so long to qualify.

My horse vet, practice owner, tells me he's finding it very difficult to recruit vets when they see what they can earn without doing shifts if they move to small animal.

It's a bit of a joke in the UK, the smaller the animal, the bigger the bill :)

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That's likely true to be honest.
There's a limit on how much most people can spend on their animals everywhere.

It's significantly easier to have owners-who want and can afford(many via insurance) to get gold-standard care to come to you, in a set building with set consult and surgery times and have enough equipment in house to be able to offer a full workup......then to work in a low-income area where people cannot afford to treat their pets but still want the same level of success and outcome as if the tests etc have been performed...because most people who bring their animal to a vet do love them and want to do the best they can.
Higher base costs- as equipping and running a hospital is hella expensive, but slightly better profit margins overall if you can actually practice medicine to a high standard.
A small animal vet can see animals all day so you don't lose money in your driving to and from calls and if you have clients happy to work up the animals like a human and you practice good medicine the money will follow.
It's also more enjoyable to actually get to help people without the constant issue of costs being the main decider on medical decisions. Higher expectations for recovery etc given the investments been made so more pressure and mental stress but the odd's of success are better when you can actually find out what your treating and afford to treat what you find.

The corporates have already caught on to the top scenario and have bought up a massive amount of small animal practices in order to gain some of those profits....the days of the independent small animal vets who do their own oohs etc are coming to an end tbh. You cannot do high-end day time and night time, charge an affordable amount to owners for that and manage to keep associate vets employed at the moment. Its easier to just do day time practice and hope that the local emergency room is decent and that your owners can afford the costs at a nighttime center. It's quite similar in Australian cites...and the rural areas are struggling with vet shortages even more than the cities who are also always looking for staff.

The uk has 270 vet jobs advertised at the moment as it happens, there's a massive recruitment crisis.
There's a very high a burn out issue rate that's causing a large number of vets to shift to relief work as its less stressful and better paid then day to day practice or quit the industry completely...or life completely in some cases. none of which is great for retention rates in practice.

The industry has been on a knife-edge for a while. Eventually though as more and more places struggle to find people to work for them.. practice will simply have to offer more money to their associates to get them to stay and charge clients more in return. Its risen already in the 8 years since I graduated. Basic economics.

The small animal vets are sort of already at that point in the UK and the sector is growing so they are pulling in the mixed animal vets to the Dark side... with the promise of being able to have a life outside of work and better pay for less hours worked. oh and less chance of serious injury versus the equine and large animal vets.

Heres hoping ye never get to the American levels through- vet med is much more expensive in the states as they all graduate with outrageous levels of student loans to pay back. This means the base costs are high at the point of access.
 
CorvusCorax said:
It's a really interesting topic for sure.
PS I thought my younger dog was dying of something horrible a few weeks ago, I was stressed to high heaven, I emailed a huge monologue to the vet with the fancy car, who had treated him in his youth. This is a guy I have known my whole life, he is a go-to guy for my breed. Yes, he is eye-wateringly expensive, I don't go to him for routine jobs, but the fact that he called me back, talked through everything and calmed me down and got me a quick appointment and threw everything he could at what turned out to be something relatively mild, was worth the initial shock when I got to the card machine ;)
Plus he's not a wimp and doesn't flinch when examining the yowling melodramatic beast and trusts me that I have his head solidly wodged between my knees lol.
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Sounds like your onto a winner there! This is the thing with expensive...its less offensive when you feel like you get what you pay for.
Also, a GSD being yowling melodramatic beastie....never :P :P I met an absolutely fabulous one recently-nice enough that I found out more about who bred him for future reference...and even though he was the most even-tempered GSD I've meet in a long time....he still acted like he was being murdered viciously for the temperature being taken!

I'm assuming beastie is fine despite the trauma of the experience for both of you?
 
Yes he's fine, thank you, it was a skin infection which caused a little stress which led to V&D and weight loss and one thing was married to the other.
The attitude of the vet makes all the difference I find, the local guy (who I go to for minor things, cows are more his thing) is scared of him and he knows it, this guy is very businesslike and doesn't take any crap and laughs at the singing, and the dog respects him for it and they're best friends again after the initial impressive operatic performance. The dog was pulled about a lot as a youngster with his old injury and I don't blame him for being apprehensive, I've had a lot of work to do in associating vet = the place where you get the cooked chicken :p
 
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I had a £200 bill for a Saturday afternoon (3pm) callout.... I told the vet what was wrong with the dog, she gave the dog a totally unnecessary anti sickness injection (dog wasn’t throwing up, I’ll already assured the vet of this, £35 for that).... I really didn’t feel I got value for money ? I actually went to this practice because they run their own out-of-hours rather than buying it in - silly me, I thought that would make it cheaper for the customer ???
 
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