Fat horse suddenly dropped underweight, WWYD?

Gingerwitch said:
Yes it looks a healthier weight - but where on earth is its muscle ?
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Where's the muscle on 3DE horses who are competing at higher dressage levels than this? It isn't devoid of muscle, it's just not slabbed in it.

Echobravo, it's not a question of what you see and what I see - there are reasonably empiric standards for judging condition (while they may be difficult to apply to photos on t'internet) and this horse isn't showing any of the hallmark signs of a condition score <1 (on a 5 point scale).
 
OP I have a Irish draught who has lost over 200 kilos if I knew how I would post pictures of him looking like yours in picture one and from march looking like a lean mean hunting machine it's a shock to see the difference and to think the horse was lugging all that round on his joints .
But all my experiance tells me them you feel your horse is not right as the owner you are almost always right so I really would give the vet a call.
 
crabbymare said:
My summary is that he went away for schooling but to where you work so you know what he was doing. he came home 4 months ago after a virus but looking ok and in the last 2-3 weeks he has dropped weight? if so I would be looking at getting a vet to have a look at his teeth and run bloods :( what are his poos like and is he feeling well in himself?
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He came home just under 3 months ago but still in the exact same workload (not with me - with another lady who had been having regular lessons on him whilst he was away with the person training him so its consistent). Yes its the last 2-3 weeks he has really dropped for him which as I said before is so abnormal (in summer from April onwards when they went out overnight I used to bring him in onto a shavings bed with no hay or food for 6-8 hours a day and work him and he still looked like picture 1). I will get the vet to look at his teeth even though they are not due yet. He is if anything a little constipated I suppose, he poos a lot less frequently but they are large and has since hes been home (2 poos a night over a 16 hour period) but when the vet came out the other day for my other horse I mentioned this and she basically said so long as its regular and hes eating, drinking and temp is normal dont worry. He does seem fine, just not himself - nothing clinically wrong from the outside (heart rate, eyes, coat (other than the lumps), temp ect).
 
Get bloods done and worm count. We have had two in our yard with rapid weight and muscle loss. Both had worm and liver issues
 
2 piles in 16 hours may be regular but it is hardly normal, is he eating plenty of hay, I wish mine only did that overnight but I would be on the phone to the vet thinking they had colic.
Has his hay been restricted all winter, it could be that he has not been getting enough fibre and it is now taking its toll causing the weight loss, possibly combined with low level dehydration as he is working harder.
 
Worm him, equest pro max followed straight away by pancur five day. Stick him on haemavite b plus... Max dose daily and protexin probiotic. Feed him four high calorie feeds daily, feed from a manger incase he is uncomfortable feeding from the ground, ensure he has good quality hay/haylage available at all times. Get vet out, ring them tomorrow. They will be able to do basic bloods at their surgery but more advanced tests will have to be sent away (normally) advanced tests cost about £30 so ask for these to be run straight away. Get EDT out to check teeth (even if they have recently been done. Stop all work for a while to assess situation.

For feed, I'd use something by Allen and page that comes in pellet form but needs to be soaked. Something like veteran vitality (regardless of age) is a good feed in such circumstances... Possibly add something like linseed. Soaked feed as opposed to mixes means that the horse uses much less calories digesting and processing the feed. Haemavite blood tonic helps them make the best of the feed they process and boosts the immune system, blood oxygen levels etc... It is used primarily with performance horses and horses in poor condition or recovering from illness. Protexin again will help with making the best of what they are eating.
 
blackcob said:
Is it just me that thinks he looks better in the after photos then? :o
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Yes, in one way I agree, he was as op admits obese in the first photo... But if he has been on schooling livery and come back looking as he has in the other pics... I'd be fuming... There is no topline to that horse. My youngster gained more topline in one month Than that horse has in four.
 
Please, please do not fill it full of food until you know if there is a genuine problem or not (or indeed what the issue is - it sounds as though there's something going on).
 
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Queenbee said:
Yes, in one way I agree, he was as op admits obese in the first photo... But if he has been on schooling livery and come back looking as he has in the other pics... I'd be fuming... There is no topline to that horse. My youngster gained more topline in one month Than that horse has in four.
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From the posts the horse looked ok when it came back 4 months ago and has lost weight in the last 2-3 weeks and since coming back has been on the yard where it got obese. I think it looks a better weight but the sudden drop along with the reduced number of poos is for me a bit worrying
 
Two poos in sixteen hours is really not normal something is going on , get a worm count , a tapeworm test when you get bloods done I wouls not start stuffing him with loads of food paricularily high calorie ones the poo thing would make me worry about making sudden changes.
Is he eating and drinking normally ? How much forage is he getting ?
 
Sorry worm counted 4 weeks ago, negative! Thank you will get bloods re done and keep a close eye. I hate not knowing what is going on with him, will make sure hay is ad lib and look at changing feeds - has to be done slowly with him or he colics :\. I did think the first time I saw he had only done 2 that he was colicing and went on colic watch and stayed at the yard for 2 days! I also think its not normal but he is out overnight now (as of this weekend, weight loss started before he was turned around) and in during the day where I will now make sure he does not run out of hay. He used to always finish his hay even when blatantly not hungry but now does not always finish it. Last time he had bloods he had the usual tests then sent away for biochem and everything else to be checked out and he came back as deficient in calcium and magnesium as well as anemic and high white blood cell count. Second lot better and third normal but white blood cell count low, most likely as he was recovering from whatever was wrong. I cant help but think that hes got something, somewhere from another yard or place and massively regret moving him around now. Not much I can do now though other than try to find out whats wrong!
 
If he was overweight and has dropped like that i would question diabetes. Is he drinking and weeing more? ... but still eating everthing in sight? Although these symptoms you need to get the vet out to test. I have a 22yo mare who is on 5000mg of metformin a day to control her type2. Shes great and still doing all pc activities
 
crabbymare said:
From the posts the horse looked ok when it came back 4 months ago and has lost weight in the last 2-3 weeks and since coming back has been on the yard where it got obese. I think it looks a better weight but the sudden drop along with the reduced number of poos is for me a bit worrying
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Yes, two poos shouts impaction or obstruction. I'd want scans/scopes done. Op, many things can cause this symptom including cancer... Get that checked.

I really couldn't make out the time line from op's post, but if the weight loss is so dramatic and since coming back... I would be very worried.

I would also say that many reactionary issues... Even GS happen two months after the 'trigger event' if there was a change in pasture or management two months ago, do not discount this as the cause.
 
I think with the white blood cell thing perhaps this is to do with his immune system post virus and that supplements to get him back on track like protexin and the blood tonic might help, however I am also concerned by the poo frequency so I think just make sure he has plenty of hay and speak to the vet about getting bloods again, and also discuss supplements/feed with them.

He does look a lot better than when he was fat but there'll be nothing left if he carries on losing at this quick rate!
 
Snowysadude said:
Sorry worm counted 4 weeks ago, negative! Thank you will get bloods re done and keep a close eye. I hate not knowing what is going on with him, will make sure hay is ad lib and look at changing feeds - has to be done slowly with him or he colics :\. I did think the first time I saw he had only done 2 that he was colicing and went on colic watch and stayed at the yard for 2 days! I also think its not normal but he is out overnight now (as of this weekend, weight loss started before he was turned around) and in during the day where I will now make sure he does not run out of hay. He used to always finish his hay even when blatantly not hungry but now does not always finish it. Last time he had bloods he had the usual tests then sent away for biochem and everything else to be checked out and he came back as deficient in calcium and magnesium as well as anemic and high white blood cell count. Second lot better and third normal but white blood cell count low, most likely as he was recovering from whatever was wrong. I cant help but think that hes got something, somewhere from another yard or place and massively regret moving him around now. Not much I can do now though other than try to find out whats wrong!
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Actually there is plenty you can do. If he is losing weight, yes you do need to find out what's wrong, but you need to try and slow the weight loss down while you do this. Use decent high calorie food, with added oil since there is an issue with stools, a blood tonic for the reasons below and a probiotic to help process and make the most of the nutrition. You need to use the above teqhniques to slow the weight loss down to a minimum so you have time to work out and address what is causing it.

Believe me, I do know what I'm talking about

Reading this...get him on a blood tonic as a matter of importance. My vets reccomended haemavite b + in my previous post. I can attest to it being fantastic. With a low white cell count and anaemia and a virus which will have compromised his immune system. You need to address this. It's not expensive, use the max dose.. Measuring cup filled to the top.
 
You are doing the right things .
I would wieght tape him tomorrow and do him twice a week or so to keep a track of whats going on.
get some more bloods done , I hope it's all ok.
 
QB, as far as I can gather from the OP's posts (which aren't terribly clear in places), this horse has lost the weight over 6 months - that isn't actually that rapid, given how overweight it was. The OP said it has continued to drop off a bit over the past few weeks - not that it's losing weight in an overly dramatic fashion.

Until the vet has seen it and confirmed the nature of the issue it would be very unwise to make massive changes to diet, or to try and put the weight back on (if there were no underlying issue causing the weight loss - which is possible, though the lack of faecal matter suggests there is something going on - putting the weight back on is the last thing it needs).

Unless, of course the horse's condition changes dramatically while waiting for a dx or test results.
 
JFTD said:
QB, as far as I can gather from the OP's posts (which aren't terribly clear in places), this horse has lost the weight over 6 months - that isn't actually that rapid, given how overweight it was. The OP said it has continued to drop off a bit over the past few weeks - not that it's losing weight in an overly dramatic fashion.

Until the vet has seen it and confirmed the nature of the issue it would be very unwise to make massive changes to diet, or to try and put the weight back on (if there were no underlying issue causing the weight loss - which is possible, though the lack of faecal matter suggests there is something going on - putting the weight back on is the last thing it needs).

Unless, of course the horse's condition changes dramatically while waiting for a dx or test results.
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If its as you interpret and has been over a protracted period of time, then I agree. My only concern (more of a gripe than concern) would be the alarming lack of TL if the horse has been away being professionally schooled for four months. If the weight loss is a shorter period of time (within the month) then no, I'd be whacking on the calories, tonic and protexin ASAP as well as calling the vets... This time of year is prime for GS. However, if as you interpret, it's over a drawn out period, I would a) agree he looks better for the weight loss, but b) be annoyed that I'd sent a horse away to be worked and he had no topline. I suppose the main question is how much has he lost since he has returned to op, what feed and work he has had since his return.

Op, either way, I'd get the vet out, get advanced bloods test done and a general mot. Pop him on the blood tonic and protexin because of the results of the last test either way. In addition to weight taping take photos, same time of day on a regular basis.
 
Just a thought was he tested for tapeworm? Also worn counts do have accuracy issues, if mine I would treat him anyway. Otherwise I think he needs a proper work up on the basis that 2 poos really is not normal
 
Agree with testing for tapeworm. Friends horse lost weight quickly and it was tapeworm infestation, which doesn't show up on a worm count.
 
Thanks again for the replies, to make it clearer (sorry was late last night, I had a long day) he was approx 625kgs when he came home, and was 730 before he left (which is a fantastic difference and lost over 4 and a 1/2 months of hard work, I did his feed and hay throughout as worked on the yard and it was ad lib and fed enough) and in the last 2-3 weeks has dropped to 550kgs (according to weigh tape which I know are not the most accurate). This is what is worrying me as averaging 25kgs a week loss is not normal and my fear.

QB I remember the horrific problems you had so am ringing my feed supplier who deliver today and 9 and getting those supplements! If they don't have them they will source and order. He was wormed for tapeworm (pancur 5 day then equest pramox(sp?)) when he came home just under 3 months ago and was on red cell and electrolytes at the time. Worm count was negative a month ago done by the vets. We are on a strict worming schedule at our yard as 2 years ago the worm counts were horrific and now all horses have to be negative before they get turned out in the herds and then are regularly checked. Will keep an eye and update when I know more :).
 
Goldenstar said:
The poo thing worrys me especially as this horse is grey.
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Sorry but lol at this, my horse is grey, does far more than 2 poos a night - maybe ten, I'm not sure he squodges them about and tries to bury them, as far as I can tell he does as many as possible to get the staining evenly distributed :rolleyes:

I'm guessing you mean chances of cancer by your post, but not the first thing that sprung to mind :o
 
550 kilos does not seem a too light for a horse at that type my OHs ID is 530 kilos hunting fit so I would not be trying to get this horse to quickly gain wieght it's not necessary however you do need to address this now .
Blood test to rule out tapeworms is essential and veterinary imput to rule out some of the big nastys like chronic grass sickness and melanomas and also blood work to see what going on .
 
Gingerwitch said:
Sorry mate - If this was my horse after being on schooling livery i would be asking for a refund ! In fact I would be bloody fuming - 4 months schooling livery - what on earth have they done to him ? and what the hell have they been feeding him on, as I would strongly suggest nothing - unless he has just stressed the weight off him?
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They've probably worked him very hard and not fed him to try and prevent him from becoming crippled... Being too fat doesn't just increase the likelihood of laminitis but also the continual stresses on the joints and back will be hugely increased.

I prefer the new look. You can get fat off horses very rapidly by making them work hard and not letting them eat a lot. We managed to get a very fat pony to lose something like 10 inches off her belly in 2 weeks without doing anything more drastic than working her.
 
Gingerwitch said:
Sorry mate - If this was my horse after being on schooling livery i would be asking for a refund ! In fact I would be bloody fuming - 4 months schooling livery - what on earth have they done to him ? and what the hell have they been feeding him on, as I would strongly suggest nothing - unless he has just stressed the weight off him?
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I agree. This horse doesn't looked worked. Just dieted (poorly).
 
Snowysadude said:
Thanks again for the replies, to make it clearer (sorry was late last night, I had a long day) he was approx 625kgs when he came home, and was 730 before he left (which is a fantastic difference and lost over 4 and a 1/2 months of hard work, I did his feed and hay throughout as worked on the yard and it was ad lib and fed enough) and in the last 2-3 weeks has dropped to 550kgs (according to weigh tape which I know are not the most accurate). This is what is worrying me as averaging 25kgs a week loss is not normal and my fear.

QB I remember the horrific problems you had so am ringing my feed supplier who deliver today and 9 and getting those supplements! If they don't have them they will source and order. He was wormed for tapeworm (pancur 5 day then equest pramox(sp?)) when he came home just under 3 months ago and was on red cell and electrolytes at the time. Worm count was negative a month ago done by the vets. We are on a strict worming schedule at our yard as 2 years ago the worm counts were horrific and now all horses have to be negative before they get turned out in the herds and then are regularly checked. Will keep an eye and update when I know more :).
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For Amymay bold is mine but its easy ti miss in the other posts :)
 
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