Fed up!! Chronic loose poo/diarrhoea/ulcers!! Can anyone help??

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MissieSFW

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Have also posted in Competing and Training but thought I would also post in here!!

I have an 8 year old TB mare who I bought in September. Ever since she came she has had very loose droppings, ranging from at best squidgy unformed mounds through cow pats to at worst explosive diarrhoea. Over the winter she has consistently lost weight and condition and looks ribby and poor.

I have had the vet out 3 times since November for diarrhoea and colic, and they have run all manner of tests including bloods, faecal sample, ultrasound and scoping, none of which has turned anything up with the exception of the scoping which diagnosed low grade gastric ulcers (so minor the vet actually advised not to bother treating, although I wasn't happy with this advice so she has had a course of Abprazole granules as couldn't afford Gastroguard - has made a small improvement in certain things such as her coat condition and appetite for hay but nothing dramatic), however the vet didn't think that the diarrhoea was related to the ulcers, and sure enough the ulcer treatment has made no difference to the consistency of her droppings. She is fed a bland, high fibre diet consisting of ad lib good quality hay (which I struggle to get her interested in but haylage gives her the squits!), 1kg Alfa A oil, 2.5 kgs of Calm & Condition and 450g Baileys Lo Cal balancer per day split into 4 feeds, and can't see how I can really feed her much more but I still struggle to keep any weight on her. I'm at my wits end as have spent an absolute fortune on vets bills, feed and supplements and got absolutely nowhere! So far I have tried:

Quizzing the previous owner - said she could be a bit loose on good grass and haylage but nothing major so either she's downplaying it or she has got a lot worse since coming to me, as apparently kept condition last winter on same diet as now plus haylage!!
Cutting out various feed groups eg. alfalfa to see if she improves -she doesn't
Adding a Probiotic - Feedmark BioPro which she has been on since Oct with no effect whatsover
5 day Panacur wormer prescribed by vet for certain type of worms known to cause diarrhoea - no effect
Abprazole ulcer granules - no effect
Feedmark ulcer calm plus meadowsweet and slippery elm - may possibly be helping with the ulcers but no effect on poo
corn oil - as above!
codeine tablets - was prescribed these by vet during her last episode of diarrhoea at a rate of 10 twice a day for 7 days, dropping to 5 twice a day for 2-3 days. She had 4 doses then went the other way and colicked! Cue emergency vet callout.

I would be really grateful for any suggestions of where to go next. I have asked my vet about testing for intolerances, as my instinct is that she's picking something up from the grazing (god knows what) and was told the tests can be very expensive and not very reliable, however there is a £40 initial test for sensitivity to 4 different kinds of grasses which if it shows up positive can then be taken further, so I'm considering doing that. I have also asked them about supplements I could try, but they have said not to bother and just to keep everything simple and use codeine at a very low dose if she gets really bad, but I keep hoping that there must be some kind of answer or solution out there somewhere.

I am considering trying:
Switching her onto Pure feeds to strip everything right back to a simple diet with lowest possible sugar, starch etc
Activated charcoal
Colligone
Gastro Plus
Global Herbs Diareze
Boswellia (so-called wonder herb advised by Feedmark)
Aloe vera juice

But I don't know which to try first or whether I'm just throwing good money after bad and actually none of them will be effective for this kind of chronic problem with no obvious cause.

Any suggestions would be extremely welcome! So sorry this is so long but thought you probably needed to know the whole story!
thanks for reading :rolleyes:
 
MissieSFW said:
I am considering trying:
Switching her onto Pure feeds to strip everything right back to a simple diet with lowest possible sugar, starch etc
Activated charcoal
Colligone
Gastro Plus
Global Herbs Diareze
Boswellia (so-called wonder herb advised by Feedmark)
Aloe vera juice

But I don't know which to try first or whether I'm just throwing good money after bad and actually none of them will be effective for this kind of chronic problem with no obvious cause.

Any suggestions would be extremely welcome! So sorry this is so long but thought you probably needed to know the whole story!
thanks for reading :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
I would try these first and I would definitely soak the hay (I'm afraid) as some hays can be high in sugars. Soak for a minimum of one hour to twelve hours in fresh water each time. If possible keep her off or at least reduce grass to test if that helps.
I would also feed something very simple such as speedibeet and add minerals and yea sacc to that. Do feed salt too if not already.

Then I would look at the gastric/gut products.
Consider emailing here about the Egusin SLH. it's not cheap I'm afraid. http://shop.forageplus.com/products.

Make sure worming is up to date as well. x It's horrid dealing with this when you can't get to the bottom of it. My tb gets soft and cow pat droppings on some un soaked hays and grass at times.
 
Hi,
She was wormed with Equimax when she came September/October time, then had the 5 day Panacur wormer from the vets in November. She is due for worming now but had diarrhoea again last week so didn't want to until that had cleared up. Also vets did a worm count at the end of January which was clear so didn't think there was much need. I was going to use Equest but vet has advised using one for tapeworms (not sure why if worm count was clear but anyway!) so will probably try and get some next week.

Thanks amandap for the advice. I will try soaking the hay and see if that helps. What do you think about the Pure feed co? Would the calm and con be simple enough on its own with a balancer as was thinking of cutting out the alfa a oil anyway as doesn't seem to be doing much and she's started leaving it anyway. Will get a salt lick too. She is on turnout all day, there is very little grass but she does like to pick at what little there is, and though it's hard to tell she does seem to be slightly worse when on the grass compared to when she's stabled at night, but not much in it really!
 
MissieSFW said:
Hi,
She was wormed with Equimax when she came September/October time, then had the 5 day Panacur wormer from the vets in November. She is due for worming now but had diarrhoea again last week so didn't want to until that had cleared up. Also vets did a worm count at the end of January which was clear so didn't think there was much need. I was going to use Equest but vet has advised using one for tapeworms (not sure why if worm count was clear but anyway!) so will probably try and get some next week.

Thanks amandap for the advice. I will try soaking the hay and see if that helps. What do you think about the Pure feed co? Would the calm and con be simple enough on its own with a balancer as was thinking of cutting out the alfa a oil anyway as doesn't seem to be doing much and she's started leaving it anyway. Will get a salt lick too. She is on turnout all day, there is very little grass but she does like to pick at what little there is, and though it's hard to tell she does seem to be slightly worse when on the grass compared to when she's stabled at night, but not much in it really!
Click to expand...


what is her temperament like?
 
My mare was similar,though not as bad.
I cut all molasses, cereal and alfalfa out and her poop is completely normal.
She's fed fast fibre,linseed meal and pro balance plus added lysine
I add in ers pellets for weight gain and up the linseed.
 
She's really chilled for a TB, which is why I bought her! Fine taken away from others, stables and travels well, doesn't box walk, stands up nicely, not spooky or sharp.... Very easy really! Not a stress head at all!
 
Also forgot to say she has been on linseed before as got some free from feedmark, not sure if it's the same as linseed meal though? It was a 5kg tub and she got 2 small scoops a day. Didn't make a much difference!
 
The linseed meal gives fibre as well as the oil. Stuff like lozengers are full of glucose so not good.
Lysine is a protein often deficient and needed to build muscle.
Ers pellets are oil based and low starch/sugar so ideal for weight gain using small feeds.
 
Mine used to get a bit squirty on alfalfa. The tapeworms can only be tested by blood test.
Tbh I think you need to get her back to only fibre. Something is upsetting her :(.
Id try adlib soaked hay and hifi lite in buckets as a partial hay replacer and extra fibre source. She needs more fibre to slow the passage of food
through the gut. Then 3/4 small meals a day of speediebeet, linseed, charcoal maybe a vit and min supp.
What I would be worried about is giving her anything starchy at all or too rich which basically rules out any condition feeds. She sounds she is super sensitive to something the moment
poor thing and the combination of the CC and balancer and alfa a oil might betoo much for her delicate insides :(.
HOpe u find the solution.
 
This is exactly what my horse Oscar sounds like. He has very poor nutrition as a youngster and as a response (my hunch is) his guts work far too quickly. He was undr vet supervision when we first got him so it was nothing 'medical' and the vet has agreed with my hunch.

I sorted it this winter with adlib hay, a barley straw bed (don't forget barley straw is a feedstuff; he can pick at it and it provides roughage with no sugars) and a feed of topspec original feed balancer, hifi lite and unmollased sugarbeet and carrots. He poo went from cowpats and unformed heaps every half an hour to proper solid poo at normal intervals in 4 weeks.

He is kept away from hayledge and rich foods, (oils turn to free radicals in the gut so keep away from them if possible), and it has transformed him, he's obviously not uncomfortable any longer!
 
my mare can be similar, although hers would be consistently cow pat like.
The only thing that makes a difference with her (well I say the only thing, she has never been fed bagged hard feed etc) is to get her on 'poor' and definitely unfertilised grazing.
 
Sorry to hear your horse is so unwell. I too had a horse with this problem some years ago. A really hard horse to get weight on in any way, liquid dung at times and to add to it not a great eater.

First round - teeth done and wormed with broad spectrum wormer - no change
Next - Out on good grass - still no change
Next - Fed good hay., barley and sugarbeet - no change

Teeth rechecked and scoped - no probs says vet!

Moved north!

Still problems - first winter looked like a hat rack and cost a fortune to feed.
Time for teeth to be done - called in local dentist - found - one lower back tooth growing into the roof of the mouth, dentist removed the shear and slowly and steadily the weight went on. Droppings improved but were never 100%.

Also something to consider is the length of time since being raced - some TB's are put on steroids to improve muscle - especially those with problems, they can become anorexic for many months after and totally fail to thrive.

Do persevere with early cut quality hay - don't soak it - your horse needs the goodness from it, early hay is more digestable (cut in June). Mix 50/50 with baylage and make it available 24/7. Be aware that oily feeds will loosen her up. Make sure that she has a good electrolyte balancer and a good vitamin mineral balancer as she will be deficient in some nutrients as a result of the diarrhoea. Feed the supplements in unmolassed sugarbeet. Avoid all grain feeds of any sort.

Have the vet blood test for redworm and tape worm. Worm damage early in life can affect their guts really badly and it's amazing the number of expensive TB's growing up who are on a very poor worming program either through ignorance or lazyness. Seen first hand when working for top trainers - forsome it's an expense they can't be bothered with!
 
Hi Tnavas, thanks for your post. Should have said she had her teeth done at same time as all the other tests in January, they were very sharp apparently and she has put a bit of weight on since then, although may also be due to me putting her back onto calm and condition? She was also tested for worms via blood tests at the same time - all clear.
She was in training as a 3 year old but never raced and was only in training briefly before going to the lady who had her before me for 4 years, and she doesn't strike me as one to cut corners with worming etc but who knows?
Am now totally confused re feed. I've been advised by Allen & Page that calm & condition is fine for horses with ulcers/digestive issues as largely fibre and low starch/sugar, also mainly consists of unmolassed sugarbeet, does contain some wheat feed - is this a problem?? I likethe idea of the Pure Condition by Pure feed company, but it contains a lot of full fat soya oil as the main conditioning source and again not sure whether this is a bad thing? Always thought it was a good thing as a non-cereal based form of calories??!
 
I had an elderly TB with similar probs and it was all about his teeth in the end, not his diet. Have you had teeth checked by a good equine dentist, not the vet? No matter what I put into him he just couldn't chew it properly and it was going straight through!!!

Worth a try. Ask around for good dental techs in your area. Good luck.
 
No I must admit it was the vet did her for me. It was on my to do list for after my stables were finished (didnt fancy trying to get her teeth done in the middle of a field!) but then that coincided with vet visit so I thought they'd have sorted the worst sharp edges. But I will find a proper dentist to do her in a few weeks time.
 
MissieSFW said:
What do you think about the Pure feed co? Would the calm and con be simple enough on its own with a balancer as was thinking of cutting out the alfa a oil anyway as doesn't seem to be doing much and she's started leaving it anyway. Will get a salt lick too. She is on turnout all day, there is very little grass but she does like to pick at what little there is, and though it's hard to tell she does seem to be slightly worse when on the grass compared to when she's stabled at night, but not much in it really!
Click to expand...
I can't say about Simple systems feeds I'm afraid, I've no experience of them. I do agree with Firewell and start with a fibre only diet. Unmolassed beet is a good, easily digestible fibre and if it suits her is a good addition, in my view, to hay to start with. I would add just salt and yea sacc to begin with and see if she settles at all with those changes. If she does, then add a good, low sugar balancer containing lysine and also micronised linseed. Do add salt to her feed rather than a lick, just table salt does fine. Build up to a level tablespoon daily for 15-16hh.
The more complex the mix and the more supplements you feed, the harder it will be to pin down anything that may be upsetting her. So, I would soak hay, phase out C&C etc. while phasing in unmolassed beet etc. If you can just feed soaked hay for a few days without upsetting/distressing her that should give a good clue if sugars are a big factor.

Sorry to ramble, you've got a lot of advice and I don't want to confuse you more. I do think getting sugars as low as possible and the diet to fibre plus minerals is a good baseline. Excess sugars can irritate the bacteria in the hind gut so they need time to rebalance if that is a cause. Soaking hay etc. usually starts to have an effect in two to three days ime. Getting weight on should come when you get her gut settled. It did with my girl.
I wish you good luck.
 
Definately get a real qualified equine dentist to check - my horse had several 'so called' dentists look at his teeth and they had all missed this back tooth. Recently I had an equine dentist (qualified) work on my mare and he found that she had a lower molar, wider than it should be with a very sharp edge on the outside - this horse had been done six months earlier by the vet and as the equine dentist said - they had not even noticed it as the growth on the tooth was far more than six months worth. I now have a horse with a happy mouth.

My feelings about vet checking teeth is the same as asking my doctor to check my teeth - my doctor knows only the very basics! An Equine Dental specialist is the best thing anyone can do for their horse.

As far as all the recommendations from all the feed companies go - Ignore them all! - they are only interested in selling their product to you. ANY wheat product is not good for your horse.

Just one more thing to add that can help weight gain is to ensure there is no back/neck discomfort - my most precious horse came to me in poor condition and my boss used to make horrible comments about his weight telling me he always looked sick! His neck was out of alignment - badly - and he found eating painful - that included grazing too, feed him up at chest height and he ate well, at ground level not well. Finally after many months of chiro treatments he was manipulated under general anaesthetic and never looked back from that day. As plump as a brood mare with a few weeks.
 
i really rate the aloe vera juice, for a fiver out of holland and barrett it makes a big difference to my boy who has a sensitive digestive system i noticed a difference in a couple if days!!
 
Thanks everyone!
Must say I'm not keen on the soaking hay idea- whilst I can see the logic on the sugar front surely soaking it will remove most of the nutrient value, not to mention the work load which I struggle with anyway having two small children and a job!
 
Soaking hay is a lot of work. Tell me about it! I'm sure you'll get her sorted from some of the other suggestions. :)
 
Your mare sounds exactly like my previous horse, i spent 18 months trying various things and researching all the symptoms had him scoped for ulcers but clear! had his droppings tested as they were also foul smelling at times and like cow pats, nothing showed up, hind gut ulcers do not show up when scoping so i came to the conclusion it could be that.

I cant tell you the amount of things i tried, he was never fed grain, changed to hay instead of haylage, tried licorice, lots of anti acid supplements and tablets still no change, the best he ever was droppings and condition wise was when i had him on charcoal, and protexin, he was hard to keep condition on but looked ok on speedibeet, topspec cool cubes and readi grass, i also added aloe vera juice, he was fed little and often 3 or if i could 4 times a day and always adlib hay, the charcoal worked the best! hope this helps.
 
Thank you.. Am dithering between charcoal and coligone, and will probably keep the ulcer calm going as an antacid. Now thinking I should take her off alfa a and calm and condition, although the reason for feeding them was that she was on this combination when she came and looked fantastic! So you wouldn't think she could be that sensitive to them all of a sudden, but I'm so desperate now I'll try anything!!!
 
My very good-doer mare also had ulcer symptoms and very loose cow-pat like dung. She is also prone to colic. I give her Aloe Vera juice for the ulcers which seems to have worked as she is much better tempered. I simply gave her 4x 30ml scoops of dry bran daily, which also worked well. I have now cut this down to 1 scoop per day and she is fine.
For your mare, I would cut out all cereal feed and give her soaked grassnuts (not too wet in this case) and dried grass chaff as well as ad-lib hay.
 
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