Fed up - laminitis again!

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rforsyth1984

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Vet has just been out, 4 weeks box rest again for the horse that doesn't do box rest :(

2nd bout of lammi this year, having been more careful than ever. Was supposed to be going hunting for the first time next week, now my poor boy is facing christmas locked up in his stable with minimal rations.

Good news is he doesn't seem to be as sore this time, and they don't want him in for x-rays (they were clear last time).

Feel totally helpless to prevent it happening again, I'm already doing all I can. Will cut back his feeds further, and when he is back in work make more effort to make sure he is ridden 5 days a week (difficult with work commitments, but if thats what needs to be done...). Not really sure what else I can do. He is muzzled through spring and summer, I can't reduce his turnout because he freaks out, and has a dust allergy and arthritis in his hock so has to go out every day. I suppose I could try having him brought in at lunchtime, which he might cope with?

He is on rubber matting and easibed. Obviously on a thick bed now, is there any merit to keeping him on a thick bed permenently? Will be a total waste of £300 worth of mats and not great for his respiratory system but if it might help?

So frustrated!
 
Cutting back feed means cutting back on nutrients. You need to make sure he has adequate resource for repair - and that means adequate mineral supplementation etc. Maybe talk to Sarah at ForagePlus.

Sugest you go on to the UKNHCP forum and post - there are folks there who have experience of managing laminitics long term and can give you good advice.

Personally I think that soft beds are OK while they are actually really sore - but as soon as possible they need a firmer surface and rubber mats are fine - even better if you can leccy fence off an area around the stable or a grass free area for him. My experience of one "professional" and one "recreational" laminitic tells me that they actually find soft surfaces harder to bear than a firm supportive surface. You can always use pads if you need to.

Lastly - no shoes - get them off. They have no role to play in the treatment of the laminitic and peripheral loading on a compromised laminar attachment is just not going to help - let the whole foot weight bear.

But that's just my opinion, others will inevitably argue for shoes. ;)

(P.S> I use buckets full of concrete with a leccy fence pole stuck in it to tape off an area if it is on a hard surface like concrete)
 
Thanks for your replies. Vet has told me to cut feed right down for now, and put him on soaked hay. This isn't totally practical so he's going on soaked hay overnight and small nets of haylage durng the day. Once he is 'over' the attack, he will go back on ultimate balancer and alfa beet/alfa a oil to make sure he is getting all the nutrients he needs.

I'm going to speak to the farrier in a couple of weeks to decide the best course of action. I will bring up the idea of barefoot, and permenent heart bars (reccommended by vet), but ultimately will go with what my farrier suggests (he's the expert, not me!)

The issue is not at all weight related, my horse is a reasonably fit 15hh arab, not at all overweight (a little under in the spring to prepare for the grass coming through!). He had lammy about 6 years ago (stress of box rest for tendon injury caused it), then nothing until last year when there was a suspected mild attack (along with deep seated solar bruising and abcesses), and this year when he has had 2 attacks (1 in June, 1 now).

Unfortunately, sectioning off an area is not possible on the livery yard am on. The yard is idea for me and my horse in every other aspect, so I'm not prepared to move, as other yards in the area are no better for turn out flexibility and worse in other aspects.

Thanks again for your comments, I will check out all sources of information. Any other ideas most appreciated.
 
brucea said:
(P.S> I use buckets full of concrete with a leccy fence pole stuck in it to tape off an area if it is on a hard surface like concrete)
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My tempory leccy fence is heavy tree trunk sections drilled to take the spikes. Not as stable as concrete I imagine and you do need to keep electric supply good but it works really well. :)
 
You're severly laminitic horse still has shoes on? :eek: Having his shoe during an attack is one of the worse possible things you can do and the vast majority of farriers and vets will agree! He's got excruciatingly painful hoof wall attachments so how on earth is a rim of shoe (where ALL they stand on is the hoof wall!) going to help?!

Shoes off and get him some hoof boots - they provide that soft but supportive ground he neds constanly without having to spend a fortune on bedding. You can try different pads inside to find out what makes him most comfortable. Have a look at Cavallo boots - they're so easy to put on and off, fit most horses and and good for using pads in.

He will need more than just soaked hay: try Pink powder - it's as minimal a supplement as you can give.

And then lots of gentle movememtn once he's over the crisis. And consider staying barefoots foot as it's the easiest way of monitoring them and you can spot an attack coming on a little earlier.
 
he will go back on ultimate balancer and alfa beet/alfa a oil to
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Not what I would feed a laminitic!!!!

Alfa is like cream cakes to them!Doesn;t matter if you believe it's not weight related - it is nutritionally related!

Maybe think about unmolassed beet, minerals, something like yea-sac or pink powder, maybe linseed which is a better way to feed oil, brewer's yeast too.

Got to rethink the traditional feeding approach with laminitics I'm afraid. :)

P.S. balancers are often crammed full of wheatfeed and other undesirables. Need to chase out any molasses too - never give molassed feeds to a laminitic - it's maybe not much, but can be the straw that broke...
 
I'm sure you already know this, but Arabs can be prone to some metabolic disorders, which can trigger laminitis. Unfortunatley I can't remember what they're called (blonde moment!). Have you had him tested for insulin resistance and Cushings? Sounds to me like the laminitis is triggered by some sort of stress. Can you think of anything? Can't help with the management etc, other than to say make sure you feed plenty of roughage with a low energy value, no sugar/molasses & a good pre/probiotic/yeasacc supplement.
Try & keep positive, I'm sure he'll come right.
 
What a horrendous situation. I do wonder though why your horse gets haylage at all. It can be full of sugar. Wouldn't it be better for him to just have soaked hay permanently. I'm sure people will correct me if I'm wrong, but thought it worth raising.
 
Haylage tends to be lower in sugar than hay as it is used up in the fermentation process. It can be more acidic though which might affect some horses.

When mine gets laminitis (usually mild) I feed well soaked (12 hrs) hay or high fibre/timothy haylage along with fast fibre and/or hi fi lite with Benevit vitamin supplement.

I also allow limited movement, providing the horse is comfortable enough and isn't on bute, usually in a small paddock or turnout area with access to soft/supportive surfaces.

I would also remove the shoes, I was also told to put heartbars on my horse, but I went barefoot with her instead and I am pleased I did. Not saying that this is what you should do btw, but it worked for me.

The frosty grass at the moment will be a huge factor for lots of laminitics, I'm currently checking for digital pulses daily as we are just getting a thaw from two feet of snow.
 
I've no idea any more whether I could say that hay or haylage has more sugars. It seems to depend on the individual batch and even bale! Haylage can be too rich, aka high in protein and other nutrients, too for some horses.

Imo unless you can get your forage analyzed, soaked and rinsed hay is the safest. I've been here before and this time I am NOT wavering or changing my mind. It's just not worth it for the suffering my pony may have to endure. :(
 
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I agree amandap.
Personally I wouldn't feed hayage that hasn't been analysed, which is why I always feed a branded make which can give you the analysis of the batch you are using, (currently using Silvermoor.) I do think that there is a risk using haylage from your local farmer in that the analysis may be very different.
I'm sorry to hear that your horse is suffering again, it can be such a depressing disease :(
Hopefully the thaw will last a while and make soaking easier!
 
Sorry to hear your horse has lami. I have a lami horse and it is a constant worry. My horse isnt over weight but her lami is due to a sensitivity to sugars in grass. I havent had her tested but we think she may be insulin resistant and treating her like an IR horse with a low sugar diet and limited access to grass works for keeping her sound. Exercise has proved to be the final key. I try to hack her out 5 or 6 times a week when the grass is growing, a minimum of 1/2 hour walking.

I did a lot of reading and research there is a lot of info out there, it can get confusing as some of it is conflicting but hopefully I now have control of my mares problems.

Good luck.
 
touchstone said:
I do think that there is a risk using haylage from your local farmer in that the analysis may be very different.
I'm sorry to hear that your horse is suffering again, it can be such a depressing disease :(
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Thanks and yes it was a risk and I shouldn't have taken it. She is much better today after 2 full days soaked rinsed hay and is feeling like moving off her deep bedded area so I'm breathing a big sigh of relief.:)

Hope your horse is improving op.
 
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Really sorry to hear this, how awful for you.

My mare got laminitis in March and she was stabled for 5months until she got better. I changed her diet, she had impints put on then heartbar shoes, now she has normal shoes. It was an awful experience, I nearly lost her and I hope it doesn't happen again, I am very cautious now, probably too cautious.

Since she has recovered she is only fed 1scoop of Happy Hoof morning and night with magnesium and a cup of speedi-beet. I weigh and soak her hay for 12 hours and double net, having to soak her hay at home as the tap at the yard has been frozen. I turn her out for 4-5 hours every day but she is always muzzled, even in this weather as she'd gorge. I didn't turn her out in the snow as my farrier advised me not to, but she goes out in the afternoon when the frost has lifted.

Have you had her Insulin/Cushings and blood tested? Also I found great information on the metabolic site thats run by Jackie Taylor.

Good luck x
 
1st off, can I ask, was your horse possibly turned out out onto frosty grass? I see so many people think that the first sign of frost means their lami prone horse can go out and play.
Biggest surge of lami attacks actually happen after the first seasonal frosts.
Shoes off and onto a deep deep bed, all the way to the door. No area should be uncovered.
Hay should be soaked for at least 24 hours, ideally with a water change halfway though, and a good rinse at the end before draining.
Phone a feed company (Allen and Page are a good one) and ask them for feed advice.
Starving a lami is one of the worse things you can do, but then feeding the wrong things can cause problems also.
I would also be asking the vet to do a cushings test. Pergolide treatment can quite literally be a life saver for a horse.
Hope your boy is feeling better very soon.
 
brucea said:
Not what I would feed a laminitic!!!!

Alfa is like cream cakes to them!Doesn;t matter if you believe it's not weight related - it is nutritionally related!

Maybe think about unmolassed beet, minerals, something like yea-sac or pink powder, maybe linseed which is a better way to feed oil, brewer's yeast too.

Got to rethink the traditional feeding approach with laminitics I'm afraid. :)

P.S. balancers are often crammed full of wheatfeed and other undesirables. Need to chase out any molasses too - never give molassed feeds to a laminitic - it's maybe not much, but can be the straw that broke...
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Pink Powder has wheatfeed in aswell!

I agree I wouldn't be feeding Ultimate Balancer or Alfa A Oil, as regardless of any weight issues, they are too high in Starch and Sugar for a Laminitic. I would switch to something like Bailey's Lo Cal or Blue Chip Lami Lite or Topspec Anti Lam if you want to continue on a Balancer.

Alfa A is fine for Laminitics if you choose one without added sugar, i.e. Fibre Beet (Speedi Beet and Alfa A together) or Alfa A No Mollasses, and I agree, I would add the oil in seperately.

I use Alfa A No Mollasses and Global Herbs Global Vite with my boys and it seems to be working well. With the younger competing one I add Speedi Beet and Oil if he needs a bit extra, but he is usually too full of energy as most Arabs are :D

I also only give them soaked hay (or steamed for the old boy as he won't eat soaked anymore). Keeping forgers crossed for you xxx
 
P.S. I alsso have mine on Global Herbs Laminitis Prone.... it contains GH Restore so great Liver Tonic/Detoxifier and then you use it as part of your preventative regime! I love the stuff and alot cheaper than some of the 'specialist' herbal tonics out there :D

On the shoes - go with what your vets and farrier say as they are the experts! One of my boys had his shoes removed and pads put on as he was so sore but shoes back on with pads and a trim was the best for him! Other boy kept his normal shoes on and went Natural Balance... again perfect for HIM! You just need to work out what's best for you and your boy x (((HUgs)))
 
joeanne said:
1st off, can I ask, was your horse possibly turned out out onto frosty grass? I see so many people think that the first sign of frost means their lami prone horse can go out and play.
Biggest surge of lami attacks actually happen after the first seasonal frosts.
Shoes off and onto a deep deep bed, all the way to the door. No area should be uncovered.
Hay should be soaked for at least 24 hours, ideally with a water change halfway though, and a good rinse at the end before draining.
Phone a feed company (Allen and Page are a good one) and ask them for feed advice.
Starving a lami is one of the worse things you can do, but then feeding the wrong things can cause problems also.
I would also be asking the vet to do a cushings test. Pergolide treatment can quite literally be a life saver for a horse.
Hope your boy is feeling better very soon.
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Completely agree with the comment regarding frosty grass, many fail to realise that it is just as dangerous - speaking to my vet last week they have had several cases within the space of a few months due to the frost.

I have a ex Lami whos now been diagnosed Cushinoid, which makes it 10 times harder to juggle, all i can recommend is remove yours off the haylage - full of sugar and i found triggered a mild reaction in my boy when fed. And muzzle - this i find is the most effective, there are always ways and methods to control it - you need to get a good routine going.
I would also advise contacting a feed company and look at your horses diet, reducing a feed wont make an ounce of difference. Not being harsh but its clearly either something you are feeding, i would get vet back out and get tested for either cushings or a metabolic issue.

And remove shoes.. good luck.
 
Definately take him off the haylage - it is too rich and will not help his laminitis. No matter how inconvenient it is soak his hay whenever he has it. Try working him just off grass and hay and see how he goes.

While it's great to feed all the supplements - they do actually survive very well without them - they are a fad of the last 20 years or so - our horses in the past didn't get them and we certainly didn't see all the metabolic problems problems we have now. It was rare to see a lamanitic horse - native pony that had had a bit too much spring grass but that was all.
Lamanitics came off the grass were stabled and fed bran mash with epsom salts and meadow hay. Feet cold hosed and frog marched. They generally recovered very well.
 
Evelyn that may have been the case in NZ, but it is not true of the UK.

The frog marching was a particular failure and speaking to a laminitic specialist vet who has practised during that period and still practices today - he for one deeply regrets that phase as barbaric and unsuccessful.

In the UK our forage/grass tends to be low in several key minerals. It varys by location, but commonly copper, zinc, magnesium. Some areas are also high in iron which is also a problem.

This is why supplementation is necessary in the UK.

Bran mashes are now no longer relevant. Grain is now milled so effectively that little value is to be found in the bran and can over time without supplementation deplete the body of calcium.

In the UK our lami incidence has grown too. But it more closely correlates with the increase in bagged feeds (many containing molasses), generally fatter horses doing less work and an increase in nitrate and other chemical useage.
 
Brucea - movement is very important - but as you said, it has to be within the horse's comfort levels. I am uncertain about the use of the word 'encouragement'. I would prefer facilitate. As for some encouragement includes chasing around with lunge whips which I would not endorse.

The horse on this post http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/12/which-one-has-laminitis.html was allowed to move when he wanted to, at a pace he wanted to and had a choice of surfaces. It wasn't long before he was moving quite a bit........

what the vets used to do was nerve block them and march them round and round. not surprisingly there was a high failure rate
 
LucyPriory said:
Evelyn that may have been the case in NZ, but it is not true of the UK.

The frog marching was a particular failure and speaking to a laminitic specialist vet who has practised during that period and still practices today - he for one deeply regrets that phase as barbaric and unsuccessful.

In the UK our forage/grass tends to be low in several key minerals. It varys by location, but commonly copper, zinc, magnesium. Some areas are also high in iron which is also a problem.

This is why supplementation is necessary in the UK.

Bran mashes are now no longer relevant. Grain is now milled so effectively that little value is to be found in the bran and can over time without supplementation deplete the body of calcium.

In the UK our lami incidence has grown too. But it more closely correlates with the increase in bagged feeds (many containing molasses), generally fatter horses doing less work and an increase in nitrate and other chemical useage.
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I am talking about when I lived in UK - 36yrs + Our horses survived and did very well without all the xtra supplements we are brainwashed into using.

The only time I will ever use bran is when a horse needs junk out of it's system fast - as you say it has no food value AND despite supplementation of Calcium will still prevent calcium absorbtion.

Totally agree with you that lammi is on the increase because people are misguided in to feeding everything. My ponies were never fed - not even in winter they had meadow hay. Our school horses and ponies too were fed when they worked and hayed twice daily. We didn't get frost induced lammi or have horses with Insulin resistance. SOY is the biggest contributor to this as it effects the endocrine system.

If people stopped being brainwashed by all the feed companies glitz and went back to feeding the basics we would have far healthier horses.

I do understand what you mean by the frog marching - it was pitiful to watch - but seem to work
 
Yay Evelyn you are probably nearly as old as me! :-) Which at the moment feels about 200..... (Sorry I am not suggesting you are 200, just that in AD terms we are about the same age, but I currently FEEL 200)

There has been no widely publicised research that links all the pieces but we know that nitrate based fertilizers inhibit the take up of other minerals so our forage is now mineral deficient in a way it probably wasn't all those years back.

We also know that horses with mineral imbalances are less able to metabolise sugars (or any food) efficiently.

So it all kind of fits. Lucky lucky people that can graze their horses on organic meadow grass that is an unimproved ley.

Equally horses have evolved to eat 60/70 plant species upwards. A horse in a typical UK paddock today won't get a quarter of that. Especially with the trend for individual turnout on hankerchiefs with no hedge.

We also know that IR is linked to long term obesity in the same way as type II diabetes.

And that IR can be managed with regular appropriate exercise. And that many leisure horses don't get that.

So laminitis is unfortunately a sad reflection of human inadequacy. How many of us can face up to that?
 
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As for some encouragement includes chasing around with lunge whips which I would not endorse.
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That is not encouragement, that is compulsion and cruelty. :mad:

Gentle walking in hand, browsing on things like nettles and blackcurrant, just being taken out of the stable and tied up in the yard thoroughfare where everyone could scratch his nose and say hello as they pass.....helped out laminitic immensely.

It's important for a laminitic to have interest and social contact and attention - it's depressing to see them and depressing for them to be stuck in a box for months on end.

SOY is the biggest contributor to this as it effects the endocrine system.

If people stopped being brainwashed by all the feed companies glitz and went back to feeding the basics we would have far healthier horses
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Bagged feeds are responsible for many problems - and horses in the UK are generally over-fed. Balancers are expensive and unnecessary, and to provide the actual mineral requriements for a horse you often have to feed at the recommended levels which will be far too much for most leisure horses and ponies on pasture in the UK.

Soy is not a natural feed for horses, nor are peas or for that matter barley and oats. Few horses have problems on a forrage based feeding system, supplemented by minerals...magnesium, copper, zinc etc., specific to the horse's needs in the environment where he is kept.

One of mine had regular colic - every few weeks - when I was buying baged feeds - when he was taken off all bagged feeds and put on the barefoot friendly diet, the colic magically stoped and never happened again.

I always assumed it was grains, but in the last few months I have been feeding sprouted oats and he is fine with that.
 
I have taken the tack of allowing my pony currently with laminitis to choose when to walk. She is in a large earth floored barn with a big deep shavings area and is now choosing to walk off the shavings for longer periods. When she is sound on the earth I will allow her into the yard with pads. I wouldn't consider walking her in hand until she is comfortable on all surfaces in pads of her own volition myself. I don't know what is best but I go by what she is saying. She is alone in the barn with her mates outside whom she can see and touch but I keep her isolated so she can't be hassled and forced to move faster or more than she feels able.

The other thing that has changed is the types of grass sown and liming etc. is not done much these days. The pesticides and chemical fertilizers applied without testing of soil and especially high nitrate ones is I'm sure another factor. Chemicals are everywhere even in the water these days.
 
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