Fed up of getting ripped off

Since when did feeding supplements become "necessary" or routine? I have several equine vet friends, one in practise nearly 50 years, and they ALL tell me that they have never seen a case that required a nutritional supplement. Some have seen problems caused by OVER supplementation, however. One woman killed her horse by feeding daily codliver oil in large quantities. People only get ripped off if they choose to be, by believing all the guff spewed out by feed companies marketing.
 
Cortez said:
Since when did feeding supplements become "necessary" or routine? I have several equine vet friends, one in practise nearly 50 years, and they ALL tell me that they have never seen a case that required a nutritional supplement. Some have seen problems caused by OVER supplementation, however. One woman killed her horse by feeding daily codliver oil in large quantities. People only get ripped off if they choose to be, by believing all the guff spewed out by feed companies marketing.
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But there are a lot of gullible inexperienced horse owners out there who have problems with their horses - very often problems caused by their own inexperience and lack of access to good advice. They are easy prey to the marketing man, and they are their target market, wanting a "silver bullet" to feed to their horse to make the problems go away.
 
Cortez, I feed a general mineral supplement because we are told that UK grazing is deficient in copper, zinc, selenium and magnesium, do you think that this is not necessary?
Cortez said:
Since when did feeding supplements become "necessary" or routine? I have several equine vet friends, one in practise nearly 50 years, and they ALL tell me that they have never seen a case that required a nutritional supplement. Some have seen problems caused by OVER supplementation, however. One woman killed her horse by feeding daily codliver oil in large quantities. People only get ripped off if they choose to be, by believing all the guff spewed out by feed companies marketing.
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I don't bother with any other products apart from those from Forageplus. I trust them, know their products do what they say they do and they are based on solid, scientific analysis.
 
Yardbird said:
Cortez, I feed a general mineral supplement because we are told that UK grazing is deficient in copper, zinc, selenium and magnesium, do you think that this is not necessary?
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Have you had your grazing analysed? Have you had bloods taken which showed a nutritional deficiency? Have you had problems with your horses which were solved by feeding a supplement? Or are you feeding a supplement "just in case"?
 
I've not had anything analysed nor blood tests taken, but there is a visible difference in the quality of my horses feet when hes on a mineral balancer and a large dose of salt than when hes off. I have a photo somewhere showing the difference but I cant find it. There is a difference between a deficiency that is severe enough to show on a blood test, and making sure the horse has optimum levels
 
Cortez said:
Have you had your grazing analysed? Have you had bloods taken which showed a nutritional deficiency? Have you had problems with your horses which were solved by feeding a supplement? Or are you feeding a supplement "just in case"?
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Forageplus make a supplement based on the average deficiencies thrown up in the many hundreds of forage and soil tests they have done over the years, sometimes the presenting symptoms are as slight as discolouration of the coat. The overall situation is that a lot of horses lacking optimum levels and aren't operating at 100%, but if that really doesn't matter to you there is no reason why you should supplement. I do because my horse has various slight problems (thin soles being just one) and I like him to not be below par to do what I ask of him.
 
I honestly can't see why some posters think this is a bad idea.? The point Luke has made is that equine supplements should not be allowed to make and advertise unproven facts to sell their products. I am hardly wet behind the ears but I honestly thought that the law would protect consumers and it was only from reading various posts on this forum, that I realised just how different the various offerings are. Not dissimilar to Bakers advertising as the ultimate dog food...and then you check and realise how rubbish it is. Yes, a letter could be sent but social media has far more reach and impact. Here's an example for you, my horse is struggling with Uvietis. Each time he has a flare it means aggressive and tiring treatment. He wears a guardian mask, only out at night and I am truly desperate to pinpoint what sets his flares off. I found reference to a supplement...emailed for more info and the response was disappointing. This would be around the £120 per month for my horse as well.
 
JillA said:
Forageplus make a supplement based on the average deficiencies thrown up in the many hundreds of forage and soil tests they have done over the years, sometimes the presenting symptoms are as slight as discolouration of the coat. The overall situation is that a lot of horses lacking optimum levels and aren't operating at 100%, but if that really doesn't matter to you there is no reason why you should supplement. I do because my horse has various slight problems (thin soles being just one) and I like him to not be below par to do what I ask of him.
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The coat is essentially dead, and the colour colour can vary due to outside conditions, ie the amount of sun and oil in the coat, or not.
I think only a blood test would truly tell if a horse is deficient in anything and most would have to be extremely deficient to show clinical symptoms.
With all of these things is it truly works its a drug and would have a gone though full drug testing. Most sell them as feed supplements and that's how they get away with all this pseudo rubbish. Ask them for the scientific papers that anything is based on and the blind trials, you usually get silence. Even human supplements which have been well researched show little benefit ( Vit D and folic acid being exceptions), although the industry makes millions of pounds out of them
If you think it works, OK but the basic ingredients of all these supplements cost pennies, you are paying for advertising and someones smart car.
 
honetpot said:
The coat is essentially dead, and the colour colour can vary due to outside conditions, ie the amount of sun and oil in the coat, or not.
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Lol where do you think it comes from and what it is made of? Every year they grow new hair twice, and the minerals affect the protein which it is made of
 
Yes it comes from the hair follicle, but once its produced its exposed to outside factors. So unless you are testing the hair its self, like you would do for a drugs test, its appearance may bear no relation to the actual factors that affected the follicle that grew the hair at the time it was being formed.
My hair is red, it is bleached by the sun, so looks fairer. I have just had it cut so now the unbleached base of the hair is exposed, so my hair looks darker. An outside influence has affected my hair, it doesn't mean I need extra vitamins. If you analysed my hair it may show what I have been eating for the last four months or if I had a general anaesthetic. I have only ever seen people prescribed vitamins and minerals based on blood results, but next time I see the vet I will ask what supplements if any they would prescribe based on the appearance of a horses coat. Its just bad medicine.
 
JillA said:
Lol where do you think it comes from and what it is made of? Every year they grow new hair twice, and the minerals affect the protein which it is made of
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I had a mare who was bright bay the in her summer coat and very dark bay in her winter coat. Didn't matter what she was fed, that's just the way she was. I moved around the country a bit with her and my other horse who had very little variation coatcolour between summer and winter.
 
Just seen someone on fb claiming that their 'special' aloe vera can cure egs, navicular and laminitis.
I've asked for the evidence, I'm sure it will be forthcoming. ..
 
honetpot said:
Yes it comes from the hair follicle, but once its produced its exposed to outside factors. So unless you are testing the hair its self, like you would do for a drugs test, its appearance may bear no relation to the actual factors that affected the follicle that grew the hair at the time it was being formed.
My hair is red, it is bleached by the sun, so looks fairer. I have just had it cut so now the unbleached base of the hair is exposed, so my hair looks darker. An outside influence has affected my hair, it doesn't mean I need extra vitamins. If you analysed my hair it may show what I have been eating for the last four months or if I had a general anaesthetic. I have only ever seen people prescribed vitamins and minerals based on blood results, but next time I see the vet I will ask what supplements if any they would prescribe based on the appearance of a horses coat. Its just bad medicine.
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They may blood test these days, but in the past it was routine to supplement copper if your black cows turned brown. It's a well documented effect of copper deficiency.

I blood test my horses. Unless I supplement copper and zinc they test high in iron and manganese, because of my grazing and water supply.
 
Haha I have a long term illness which hasn't improved for 14yrs but have been told many times that aloe vera will cure me. I seem to be a target for mlm schemes, as soon as people realise I'm ill and desperate for a cure they try and sell me every crackpot miracle cure under the sun.
 
I haven't read the whole thread but surely it is basic commonsense to have a soil analysis done? If I was a cereal farmer, I'd be doing that every few years minimum and possibly every year so that the artificial fertilisers I apply are only what the soil needs and I'm not wasting my money putting on something that a crop doesn't need.

But I used to be a sheep farmer so instead of putting chemicals (other than basic requirements of N, P, and K) on the land to grow grass, I'd either (a) treat every sheep once a year with a bolus containing the missing elements, (b) put minerals in the feed, or (c) provide mineral licks. But it is also possible to put it on in the fertiliser, just a bit more diffiocult. Deficient sheep didn't thrive and had a copper coloured tint to their wool. Catching them and administering a bolus would often cure the problem. I never bothered with a blood test.

Copper is poisonous to sheep but they still need small quantities for metabolism, so I'd supply the Red Rockies for cattle which contain copper. The Yellow Rockies are normally recommended for sheep as they don't contain copper as there is enough in healthy soil.

I've been breeding Highland ponies here for about ten years now and the ponies get Red Rckies containing copper and cobalt same as the sheep got. There are of course other minerals and trace elements in the blocks as well, and they thrive. I could feed them expensive supplements to get the same trace elements and they'd simply excrete what they don't need, but that costs money and isn't necessary, so why do it?
 
honetpot said:
The trouble is there are lots of horse owners who have very little knowledge of basic horse nutrition, they want the best for their horse and some pseudo scientist tells them if you feed this it will do that. If only life was so simple.
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If they know that little then I would suggest they are no-where near ready to own a horse. Since my horse was PTS I have become the proud owner of 3 lovely chickens. I had some experience of caring for other peoples' chooks when they went on holiday over the years, but spent six. months reading up on the subject of keeping birds of my own before I went and bought them . They don't have any supplements or fancy stuff either and I turn over the pages of adverts without reading them.
 
It's funny when you see people who obsess about the vits/mineral/protein etc their horse gets but then they go home and pour any amount of rubbish into themselves (myself included!).

Is it a case that horses (like people) will cope happily with an average diet, might be low in a few things but will generally tick along fine. Is it only horses in high intensity work that really need their diets analysed?
 
fatpiggy said:
If they know that little then I would suggest they are no-where near ready to own a horse. Since my horse was PTS I have become the proud owner of 3 lovely chickens. I had some experience of caring for other peoples' chooks when they went on holiday over the years, but spent six. months reading up on the subject of keeping birds of my own before I went and bought them . They don't have any supplements or fancy stuff either and I turn over the pages of adverts without reading them.
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You are quite right! Here is a picture of mine, I have upwards of thirty on free range. They get straight wheat, nothing added. Half a bucket of grain thrown in the scratch pit every day. They roost in the trees, summer or winter, and scorn the use of the shed.

These are meat birds, nest wild, and emerge with a dozen or so chicks in tow when they've hatched them.They are kept as poultry used to be kept before they started messing them up with hybridisation and selective breeding.

Shocked to read on a farming forum that modern "free range" laying poultry are expected to lay for 18 months and then go for soup!

roosting1.jpg
 
Dry Rot said:
You are quite right! Here is a picture of mine, I have upwards of thirty on free range. They get straight wheat, nothing added. Half a bucket of grain thrown in the scratch pit every day. They roost in the trees, summer or winter, and scorn the use of the shed.

These are meat birds, nest wild, and emerge with a dozen or so chicks in tow when they've hatched them.They are kept as poultry used to be kept before they started messing them up with hybridisation and selective breeding.

Shocked to read on a farming forum that modern "free range" laying poultry are expected to lay for 18 months and then go for soup!

roosting1.jpg
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My girls would love that! They are very much pets with benefits, so I spoil them in that I spend alot of time chatting to them and sitting watching them, but they have just their layer pellets, mixed corn, meal worms and a few bits of bread every so often. Their absolute favourite treat is a few grapes. Yes, commercial birds are slaughtered after their first year as their production rate slows (mine are still going at it hammer and tongs at 18 months) and even if they laid just one a week they will have a home for life. My cat is disgusted.
 
I'm hoping to try and get some independent "experts" to help with the page. I am going to write to a nutritionist who advertises as indepdendent and see if she will help.
 
Luci07 said:
I honestly can't see why some posters think this is a bad idea.? The point Luke has made is that equine supplements should not be allowed to make and advertise unproven facts to sell their products. I am hardly wet behind the ears but I honestly thought that the law would protect consumers and it was only from reading various posts on this forum, that I realised just how different the various offerings are. Not dissimilar to Bakers advertising as the ultimate dog food...and then you check and realise how rubbish it is. Yes, a letter could be sent but social media has far more reach and impact. Here's an example for you, my horse is struggling with Uvietis. Each time he has a flare it means aggressive and tiring treatment. He wears a guardian mask, only out at night and I am truly desperate to pinpoint what sets his flares off. I found reference to a supplement...emailed for more info and the response was disappointing. This would be around the £120 per month for my horse as well.
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Exactly! Thank you. No one should be mislead or missold whether they have 1 GCSE or a degree in equine science!
 
LukeWill said:
I'm hoping to try and get some independent "experts" to help with the page. I am going to write to a nutritionist who advertises as indepdendent and see if she will help.
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Good for you. I buy almost nothing in the way of supplements. My first horse lived to be 36 years of age, working until 6 months before he was pts and never gave me a vet bill. The YO at one yard we used was fond of saying "How do they manage without us?" tongue in cheek.
 
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