Fed up....thoughts? Ideas? General sympathy?!

[kc100]

Potted history of bonkers horse....ride him for a friend who is petrified of him, 17hh (ish) WB x appy (nightmare combo I know!), 8 yrs old, abused by previous owner for 2 years (left in an isolation paddock for most of 2 years with no food, no dentish, no health checks etc), passed around 4 dealers before my lovely (but naieve) friend saw him, thought he was pretty and decided to buy him as her 1st horse.

Teeth in such a state - remnants of wolf teeth left, plus holes in his gums around the teeth which were all infected. He couldnt chew properly because of this, hence he had no condition and was skin and bones. Fast forward to new owner - spent a fortune getting teeth fixed, finally sorted after 1 year of various treatments. Then scoped him (as we thought likely to have ulcers) - grade 2 and they are infected. So on Gastroguard and anti-biotics. Putting on tonnes of condition now and looks like a different horse which is great!

Problem is he is simply screwed up from last woman who had him. She'd beat him onto the lorry (now petrified of the sound of loud engines/lorries), starved him, isolated him (now petrified when other horses leave the menage without him - separation issues). We have good days and bad days, seems to be alternate days and its getting a touch tiring to be honest.

Current owner will never sell him (she's in the process of looking for a 2nd horse, proper confidence giver type not silly WB this time), and never put him down so please dont suggest that - he is borderline dangerous if you dont know him (on the ground and ridden) so selling him on is not wise. I'm happy riding him because I know all of his 'special' quirks and the way he reacts (often to thin air).

My biggest issue is we cant get the bit in his mouth, he has just spent so long associating the bit with the pain in his teeth that despite dentist having confirmed countless times that teeth are 100% better, no infection left and absolutely nothing that could be causing him pain (he has the gag on without sedation now so that confirms mouth is better). We just cant get the damn bit in his mouth! We've tried every method possible, coating the bit in every substance under the sun...you name it, we've tried it. Normally is a battle for about 1 hour until some fluke means we get the bit in, and we are all too tired by the end of it to do any real work in the school.

So you're about to suggest bitless right? Had the same idea months ago - tried the orbitless. Had no brakes, was really rather scary even for someone like me who rides everything and anything, so got off and sent that one back. Bought a hackamore last week (needed more brakes!), went out for a hack in it and was OK. Schooled in it, was OK. Tried hacking out again yesterday - not OK. Tried to gallop off with me - took him into the school as was annoyed with him and not letting him get away with it. Ignored me the entire time, he just knew I had nothing going on up front (he is not at all sensitive to the leg either so even with the strongest leg aids he just ignored it) and took the biscuit.

So hackamore is hit and miss, not consistent enough to be getting real work out of him and he was running through it so he knows he can get away with more when I've put that on.

Even when we get the bit in by some fluke, we then have the spooking. Now admittedly its improving since the ulcer treatment, he is less stupid and hasnt put me on the floor recently which is an improvement. But we still do the most bizarre movements at literally NOTHING. Goat leaps in the air (all 4 feet off the floor and jumping into the air), reversing backwards, shooting sideways....he is petrified of everything and nothing all at the same time.

Urgh sorry for the rant - we're not giving up on him, just having a bad week with him really and need to get frustrations off my chest! If anyone has any amazing ideas for getting the bit in his mouth let me know, or just want to tell me to get a grip that's fine!

 

[Claire-R]

If it was my horse I would take him back to basics. A lot of ground work as it sounds like hes scared but also taking the mick! wipe the slate clean and tackle his issues one by one rather than all at once!

You'll get there though, never give up. I nearly gave up on my mare and I'm glad I didn't as she is awesome now! after a lot of stress and tears.

 

[ester]

Has he had any proper down time in between?

I wonder if you are sort of trying to force the being ridden issue with a horse that doesn't sound all that comfortable with that question/can't cope with the rest of life.

 

[Equi]

Id go right back and get him a simple snaffle stick it in and give him a really nice dinner with it and do that every day and eventually he will know that the faster he puts the bit in the faster he will get fed. Then start to reduce the feeds to a handful and eventually to just a treat, so hes not actually getting fed before a ride. The eating will also make him mouth the bit a lot so he will realise it is not sore anymore.

 

[MS123]

I wonder if you are sort of trying to force the being ridden issue with a horse that doesn't sound all that comfortable with that question/can't cope with the rest of life.

My thoughts exactly. I don't think you should even attempt to ride him, sounds as if he's had a very hard life and deserves now to live the rest of his days as a lawn mower! I wouldn't try and force him to do something he obviously doesn't want to do given his past, and present issues.

 

[kc100]

Id go right back and get him a simple snaffle stick it in and give him a really nice dinner with it and do that every day and eventually he will know that the faster he puts the bit in the faster he will get fed. Then start to reduce the feeds to a handful and eventually to just a treat, so hes not actually getting fed before a ride. The eating will also make him mouth the bit a lot so he will realise it is not sore anymore.

Thanks for this - he is already in a snaffle (well when he allows it in his mouth!) and we've tried the feed once in, then back off thing, as well as the treat once its in etc. Problem isnt really once the bit is in (he turns back into a dope on a rope again once we've got it on) - its the actual getting it into his mouth. Dont think there is anyone on earth tall enough to force it in his mouth when he sticks his head in the air to avoid it! He also barges you if he starts getting fed up of it, he has broken headcollars/ropes etc if you try having a headcollar around his neck whilst you put the bridle on. We hate the battle and dont want to force the issue so we'd prefer to be calm and gentle about it rather than it turning into a bargy fight, but gentle gets you nowhere more often than not and he is a big horse that knows his size - he likes to take the mick basically cos he knows he can.

 

[Tnavas]

Maybe what you are dealing with is also the reason he has had a tough life, been dumped in a paddock etc. his current behaviour is not the end result but the cause.

Give him the winter off, treat him like a baby horse and do masses of ground work. Have a chiro check him over too, not wanting a bridle on could also be because he is sore in the poll.

 

[joycec]

If all else fails, I would consider getting one of those straight bar black plastic bits with teeny tiny bit rings, threading it through the gap in his teeth at the side and then attaching the cheek pieces.

The other way you probably won't want to do, because it deliberately hurts them. But if you have to, you can fold the lip over the bottom canine tooth/tush and press down on the point of the tooth until he opens his mouth and quickly put the bit in. Of course I don't recommend hurting him, but this is how a dodgy dealer would do it, if you have exhausted every other option.

Do consider though, whether he is simply telling you he is unhappy to be ridden. The last one I had who refused to take the bit, several years ago now, turned out to have some fairly serious physical problems. I'd be looking at hocks, hind suspensories, sacroiliac and back if nothing is obvious.

It may be the old owner treated him badly because of how difficult he was, rather than the other way around.

 

[soulfull]

If friend never intends selling or riding him herself, does he actually need to be ridden? Just wondering as your friend is getting a new horse to ride could this one not just be a field ornament?

 

[kc100]

My thoughts exactly. I don't think you should even attempt to ride him, sounds as if he's had a very hard life and deserves now to live the rest of his days as a lawn mower! I wouldn't try and force him to do something he obviously doesn't want to do given his past, and present issues.

I do see where you are coming from, but he is only 8, part of me agrees and thinks give up and let him be an expensive pet but then he is young and he only had 2 bad years, vs the rest of his life that is a relatively short period of time. Do you have to write off everything that has a bit of trouble in its past? He is bred for showjumping and whilst I know he'll never be a competition horse it would be a shame if he could never at least go out for a hack and do a bit of schooling at home as all the basics are there - he has lovely paces and works in a beautiful soft outline, so he knows his job deep down.

He has had plenty of downtime, especially when his teeth were being done - at least 3 months off, with periods of 3-4 weeks off in between as well depending on whatever treatment is going on at the time.

I guess I just dont have a defeatist attitude so I'm not on the giving up bandwagon just yet, there is a good horse in there somewhere...appreciate he might not want to put the bit in (and is just a naturally spooky character), but if he hated work so much he'd be a total plonker as soon as I got on and wouldnt stop until he had me on the floor right? Once the bit is in, and if nothing is particularly scary that day, we can have a lovely schooling session....albeit they are few and far between but I have seen glimpses of something good.

Just seems a massive shame to waste an 8 year old all for the sake of 2 years with an idiot of an owner....

 

[Brightbay]

I would suggest you contact someone like Melanie Watson (video example below). The spooking and leaping around are as a result of what's known as trigger stacking - the horse can deal with a certain amount of stress, but once their stress levels in response to things they are fearful of (being bridled) are raised, even small and insignificant things can cause a meltdown. You need someone who understands this, and who can advise you on how to deal with it.

Melanie Watson and "Bridling Poppy"...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPg2388wd4Y&feature=youtu.be&a

 

[Orangehorse]

Look at Linda Tellington Jones books about ground work, body work and helping damaged horses. Schooling with a bitless is similar to a bit, a bit of metal won't physically stop a horse, they have to be schooled to know what it is. (I had a nutty PC pony that was ridden bitless half a century ago).

There is also clicker training, but you need someone v. experienced to start you off.

I think you have tried all the conventional methods, you need to start thinking outside the box now. Try some of these weird cowboys, for instance, like Mark Rashid or Tom Durrance, or dare I say, Monty Roberts. Monty is coming to the UK this autumn for some demos ...........................................

 

[joycec]

he'd be a total plonker as soon as I got on and wouldnt stop until he had me on the floor right?

Afraid not. There are horses who are so fundamentally good natured that they will try and work through serious pain for their rider. Then things build to a point that they can no longer tolerate and they flip.

If this horse started being a problem at five or six just as people started asking him to do some serious work, then I think he needs a full physical work up including either major x rays or a scintigraph.

 

[kc100]

Maybe what you are dealing with is also the reason he has had a tough life, been dumped in a paddock etc. his current behaviour is not the end result but the cause.

Give him the winter off, treat him like a baby horse and do masses of ground work. Have a chiro check him over too, not wanting a bridle on could also be because he is sore in the poll.

We've been in touch with the original owner (who sold him to the last owner) - she had him from 6 months to the age of 5, he was a complete angel apparently, appreciate she might be peddling a few tales here but she doesnt have a reason to lie. He would hack out alone, and was the most sensible horse on the yard. Then 2nd owner bought him with the view to hunting him (hunt producer apparently), and selling him on as hunt masters horse due to his size and jumping breeding. He is the sort that likes company of other horses, so when she tried taking him out hunting and getting him to lead he wouldnt - so she lost patience with him. He likes to follow others not lead, he has never been or will ever be comfortable being in front. She also decided he was lazy (most likely because he wasnt eating properly because she never had the dentist to him) and that he wasnt worth bothering with so left him in the isolation paddock, eventually trading him in for a childs pony from a dealer.

I 100% believe he wasnt a bad horse with behavioural problems before the 2nd owner had him - I think the 1st owner may have been a bit slack with the dentist hence why there were remnants of wolf teeth left, did a bad job - but I dont think the 1st owner has any reason to lie to myself and the horses current owner. She was desparate to find him after selling him to the 2nd owner, the 2nd owner kept in touch for a while and the 1st owner kept tabs on him best she could through friends that knew the 2nd owner but eventually when he was being passed around the 4 dealers she lost track and couldnt find him. It was only when someone at my yard saw her photo of the horse asking after him on facebook we got in touch with her and she came to see us, telling us all about his past.

The 1st owner was a sweet lady, private owner, and loved that horse to bits - she may have a case of rose tinted glasses but I'm sure she wasnt lying when she said he was a genuine, kind type. I've seen all the pictures of him growing up and he did plenty as a youngster, things he could never do now so she wasnt lying to us about that.

We've done all other vet checks too including having chiro out, she confirmed there wasnt anything major to write home about mainly because he's done more or less nothing for the last 3 years.

 

[Equi]

Thanks for this - he is already in a snaffle (well when he allows it in his mouth!) and we've tried the feed once in, then back off thing, as well as the treat once its in etc. Problem isnt really once the bit is in (he turns back into a dope on a rope again once we've got it on) - its the actual getting it into his mouth. Dont think there is anyone on earth tall enough to force it in his mouth when he sticks his head in the air to avoid it! He also barges you if he starts getting fed up of it, he has broken headcollars/ropes etc if you try having a headcollar around his neck whilst you put the bridle on. We hate the battle and dont want to force the issue so we'd prefer to be calm and gentle about it rather than it turning into a bargy fight, but gentle gets you nowhere more often than not and he is a big horse that knows his size - he likes to take the mick basically cos he knows he can.

Once or twice isn't going to cut it, it needs to be weeks, months even. Have the feed ready and let him see it and he will want to put his head down to eat it at which point you attempt the bit, if he puts his head up leave him until he brings it back down to get the food (have the bucket at the door so he can't push you out of the way and put up a rope stall rope thingy.

Also try what someone else said, but the bridle on first with no bit (just have it attached on one side) then it will be easier to get the bit in without losing the whole bridle with each try. This is the way i bitted my two.

 

[kc100]

Afraid not. There are horses who are so fundamentally good natured that they will try and work through serious pain for their rider. Then things build to a point that they can no longer tolerate and they flip.

If this horse started being a problem at five or six just as people started asking him to do some serious work, then I think he needs a full physical work up including either major x rays or a scintigraph.

See my last response for full story - but he never 'played up' at 5/6, he was just deemed lazy by 2nd owner because she had let his teeth go bad (hence wasnt eating properly), plus he didnt want to lead out hunting, so she deemed him not fit for purpose and left him to rot basically. Or decided she didnt want to pay to fix it - probably a mix of both. Prior to 2nd owner buying him aged 5 he was happily jumping and schooling, progressing as any young horse would be at that age with 1st owner.

 

[kc100]

Once or twice isn't going to cut it, it needs to be weeks, months even. Have the feed ready and let him see it and he will want to put his head down to eat it at which point you attempt the bit, if he puts his head up leave him until he brings it back down to get the food (have the bucket at the door so he can't push you out of the way and put up a rope stall rope thingy.

Also try what someone else said, but the bridle on first with no bit (just have it attached on one side) then it will be easier to get the bit in without losing the whole bridle with each try. This is the way i bitted my two.

Sorry it wasnt clear - when I said 'once in' I meant once the bit was in - we did that process for months to no avail. Also have done the bridle on with one cheek strap detached, and tried to get the bit in that way - head still thrown up in the air.

We have honestly tried all the 'conventional' methods and every way possible you might think of getting a bit in a horses mouth.

 

[ester]

I don't think 3 months is that long, I was thinking more like a year, chill out be a horse and then consider starting again.

How does he react to bridleing with the bitless?

 

[kc100]

I would suggest you contact someone like Melanie Watson (video example below). The spooking and leaping around are as a result of what's known as trigger stacking - the horse can deal with a certain amount of stress, but once their stress levels in response to things they are fearful of (being bridled) are raised, even small and insignificant things can cause a meltdown. You need someone who understands this, and who can advise you on how to deal with it.

Melanie Watson and "Bridling Poppy"...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPg2388wd4Y&feature=youtu.be&a

That video is really interesting - he has the same issue holding the nose. Definitely think it might be worth getting someone like that out to him (and us) so they can teach us how to do that kind of thing, happy to put the work in over weeks/months if it means he stops being so fearful of the bit.

 

[Rapidash]

I think he needs at least a year off to get his head around things. Maybe more. 3 months is not actually that long for a horse.

I think a good natural horseman could really help though.

I'm not convinced coming up with a way to get him happier with the bit will help much by itself. It sounds like one symptom of many.

Whatever you do I suspect it will cost a lot of time and money so good luck!

 

[Brightbay]

That video is really interesting - he has the same issue holding the nose. Definitely think it might be worth getting someone like that out to him (and us) so they can teach us how to do that kind of thing, happy to put the work in over weeks/months if it means he stops being so fearful of the bit.

Even if Melanie isn't in your area, she is part of a network of people who are able to apply a similar approach and train owners to use it efficiently. It would be worth contacting her to get suggestions on whether there was someone near you. Debbie Busby of Evolution Equine I think works in your area.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

I'd start by teaching to tie up without pulling back and breaking the headcollar, even when scary stuff is going on. When he's got that, leave the headcollar on (not just round neck) whilst you bridle. I second the poster who said to pass the bit through the gap in the teeth. A bradoon snaffle or one of those plastic bits, with new good quality stiff leather cheekpieces attached, pass the cheekpiece through and use it to pull the bit through gently and slowly.

Have his eyes been checked? Since he spooks so much.

Have you considered putting the basic schooling in place, and teaching any new stuff, on long reins? That way you're not up there risking a fall you're safe on the ground and your friend could walk at his head. If he was more responsive to leg aids you'd have more luck with bitless bridles. You can't ride from the hand in them.

A German hackamore is stronger than an English one. If you can't get any bit in his mouth other than a small ringed snaffle, and if that's not enough, you can put the snaffle on a sliphead and have a "double bridle" type setup with a hackamore as the curb.

When your friends new horse arrives you can hack together. He can gradually learn to go alongside and to take the lead for short periods.

I expect it will take ages but like you I wouldn't give up. Apart from anything it likely is not in the horses best interest. If your friend won't PTS and is not experienced enough to handle him herself, who is going to take care of him when you get too busy with a horse you can ride and are maybe not available to help her all the time?

I'd forget about his breeding and talent, just find out what he shows aptitude for and can cope with, start some basic training in an environment where he's happy and with methods that he stays relaxed with, then aim to progress from there however slowly it takes.

 

[kc100]

I don't think 3 months is that long, I was thinking more like a year, chill out be a horse and then consider starting again.

How does he react to bridleing with the bitless?

No problems at all - on and off without even batting an eyelid. Its only when you go near his mouth with a bit, or try and place your hand on his nose with the bit in your other hand when he starts throwing his head in the air and moving backwards to avoid you.

 

[kc100]

I'd start by teaching to tie up without pulling back and breaking the headcollar, even when scary stuff is going on. When he's got that, leave the headcollar on (not just round neck) whilst you bridle. I second the poster who said to pass the bit through the gap in the teeth. A bradoon snaffle or one of those plastic bits, with new good quality stiff leather cheekpieces attached, pass the cheekpiece through and use it to pull the bit through gently and slowly.

Have his eyes been checked? Since he spooks so much.

Have you considered putting the basic schooling in place, and teaching any new stuff, on long reins? That way you're not up there risking a fall you're safe on the ground and your friend could walk at his head. If he was more responsive to leg aids you'd have more luck with bitless bridles. You can't ride from the hand in them.

A German hackamore is stronger than an English one. If you can't get any bit in his mouth other than a small ringed snaffle, and if that's not enough, you can put the snaffle on a sliphead and have a "double bridle" type setup with a hackamore as the curb.

When your friends new horse arrives you can hack together. He can gradually learn to go alongside and to take the lead for short periods.

I expect it will take ages but like you I wouldn't give up. Apart from anything it likely is not in the horses best interest. If your friend won't PTS and is not experienced enough to handle him herself, who is going to take care of him when you get too busy with a horse you can ride and are maybe not available to help her all the time?

I'd forget about his breeding and talent, just find out what he shows aptitude for and can cope with, start some basic training in an environment where he's happy and with methods that he stays relaxed with, then aim to progress from there however slowly it takes.

Thanks for the detailed reponse - he stands tied up in a headcollar no problem, loves being groomed in fact so stands very happily whilst being groomed. You can also walk away and leave him tied up and again, no issues. Only issue occurs when the bridle comes out of the tack room. Any other scary situation (dogs running at him, children screaming, various other yard business/noises) he is not bothered by and will stand tied up calmly and happily. So definitely is associated with the sight of the bridle (you can see him spot you walking towards him with it and he tenses up). With the bitless he soon relaxes when he realises nothing goes in his mouth, equally if you do get the bit in his mouth (a rarity!) he soon relaxes once its on.

Have tried leaving headcollar on whilst we put bridle on, it can be done but again getting the bit in is the issue and its a fight regardless of headcollar/no headcollar.

Havent checked his eyes actually (probably the only thing that hasnt been checked!) so that's worth investigating.

The annoying thing with him is the basic schooling, when he's paying attention, is fully in place. He is excellent on the flat, walk trot and canter with some basic lateral movements, lovely transitions, all done in a soft outline. Knows to stretch and work long & low in between periods of work in a more uphill frame. The basics are definitely in there, its just getting his brain on side for long enough to maintain it that's my biggest issue.

We cant even get a snaffle in his mouth, the conventional way or by detaching the cheek piece on 1 side - he knows both ways mean we want the bit in his mouth and he doesnt want any part of it. Once the bit is on (again rarely) - a snaffle is more than enough and he is not strong with me. He's only strong in the bitless bridles because he isnt responsive to my leg when he is being inattentive.

It is a bit of a catch 22 - with the bit in, if he's having an inattentive day, I can use a bit of hand to re-focus him and get him listening to the leg again. But in the bitless, which he far prefers in terms of getting it on, if he's having an inattentive day he'll ignore my leg and I have nothing up front to focus him, meaning he gets a bit strong and does what he wants to do.

The plan in terms of my friend and I is that I'll keep on going with him whilst she gets her new horse, rebuilds her confidence with her new horse and she can enjoy riding again. I've got a yearling who I'll start up in 2/3 years time, so I've got a couple of years with current problem horse to see what we can achieve with him. So there isnt a worry of me getting too busy for the foreseeable future! Plus my yearling is staying at the same yard as her, so when I'm working with him I can still spend a bit of time with friend's problem horse - and fingers crossed he'll be less of a problem and she can plod around on him from time to time. We also have the added bonus that my husband wants a horse to ride so between her 2nd horse she is looking for and the current problem horse, my husband can have a sit on one of them every now and then. So they'll all get plenty of riding between them dont worry!

Thank you for the encouraging words, I'm very much looking forward to her 2nd horse arriving so we can have plenty of regular hacks alongside a schoolmaster who will show him how ponies are supposed to behave!

 

[kc100]

Even if Melanie isn't in your area, she is part of a network of people who are able to apply a similar approach and train owners to use it efficiently. It would be worth contacting her to get suggestions on whether there was someone near you. Debbie Busby of Evolution Equine I think works in your area.

Looks like Debbie might be Halifax way (saw a comment on her website saying she's near to Halifax but that was 2013) so too far away - but have found someone in Warwickshire so may well contact her for some lessons. Thank you for the suggestion.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

You missed the point re screaming kids dogs etc and tying. You said he is not bothered by it and stands calmly. Find something he is bothered by. He needs to learn not to break free even when scared. You could use the bridle, its about pushing him but not too far. He needs to learn that breaking free is not an appropriate response. He needs to learn to tolerate short term fear in situations where you know he is not in any actual danger eg bridling. If pulling back and breaking free is allowed through fear when there is no pain or danger, then how do you eg clean out a wound which isn't dangerous but is painful? Domestic horses need to learn to tolerate short term necessary unpleasantness.

 

[kc100]

You missed the point re screaming kids dogs etc and tying. You said he is not bothered by it and stands calmly. Find something he is bothered by. He needs to learn not to break free even when scared. You could use the bridle, its about pushing him but not too far. He needs to learn that breaking free is not an appropriate response. He needs to learn to tolerate short term fear in situations where you know he is not in any actual danger eg bridling. If pulling back and breaking free is allowed through fear when there is no pain or danger, then how do you eg clean out a wound which isn't dangerous but is painful? Domestic horses need to learn to tolerate short term necessary unpleasantness.

Yes great but he doesnt break the twine when he breaks free - he pulls so hard on the lead-rope that the rope itself snaps, the metal clip attached to the rope snaps, or the headcollar snaps. I'm not sure why the rope or headcollar breaks before the twine (I know the twine is supposed to break first!) but for whatever reason we cannot find a leadrope strong enough to cope with the pressure of when he pulls back on it. So as much as we might find something that scares him, we cant teach him not to escape as there is nothing on earth apparently strong enough to hold him. So he'll always win by breaking the rope - unless someone has a suggestion of a rope strong enough to not snap!

But either way, I'm not a fan of scaring a horse out of its wits and calling it 'desensitisation' or whatever nonsense its called, I want to address the fear and overcome it not completely overwhelm him with fear until he submits. The video from Melanie Watson with the bridle training kindly suggested by another poster is more of what I'd prefer to learn, repeated training using a clicker if necessary to remove the association of fear and gradually overcome it. I appreciate some people use desensitisation with success but he is not the type of horse that responds well to being thrown in at the deep end and forced to 'get on with it', and believe me we've tried.

 

[lurcherlu]

We had one like this with her bit ...... Jam , honey or syrup anything sticky and shed open her mouth cost the bit I it ,after 6 months of slowly doing this she would drop her head and open her mouth for her bit . Turn away and restart him ,it's all very well being happy to ride a crazy horse , but in reality with correct re schooling , groundwork and a good education there's no need for him to be crazy . Any time you take step forward and he hates it go back a step .treat him like an unbroken baby , forget his past and live the now . Go slowly and take it as his speed , just because you can ride him whilst he's behaving like this doesn't mean you should . In spring when you bring him back into work I'd be putting his bit in and leaving him with it in whislt I faff about then take it out , so bit doesn't equal work . Listen to him , him not wanting his bit in may not be pain from the mouth but the fact he's linking the bit with the fact he has to be ridden when its in . Play games with him , make his learning fun , reward him fr little tiny things , hugs praise , ate , strokes well done, good boy etc . Make him your best friend , I have a appy x welsh but the appy side of her is wb based and she really is a saint , I backed and broke her there are such trainable horses

 

[joycec]

See my last response for full story - but he never 'played up' at 5/6, he was just deemed lazy by 2nd owner because she had let his teeth go bad (hence wasnt eating properly), plus he didnt want to lead out hunting, so she deemed him not fit for purpose and left him to rot basically. Or decided she didnt want to pay to fix it - probably a mix of both. Prior to 2nd owner buying him aged 5 he was happily jumping and schooling, progressing as any young horse would be at that age with 1st owner.

A horse does not even have a full set of adult teeth until it's that age, so for a horse to go lazy because of its mouth at that age is a very strange story. I still think the horse is more likely to have been neglected due to performance issues caused by the same problem that are still causing him issues to be ridden today. I have a feeling that getting the bit in his mouth is the least of his problems and more likely a symptom than a cause.

Why would he dump you if he was happy to be ridden? Your description is of a horse who, nine days out of ten, or more often, does not want a rider on his back. I think you need to stop worrying about his mouth, and find out why.

 

[joycec]

This is the bit I mean. Unfasten it completely, thread it between his closed teeth into his mouth. Do up cheeks. If he gets his head up stand on a box. Feed him with it in. Do that without ever riding him until he takes it happily, however long that takes. Then ride. If he still doesn't want to be ridden get x rays and scans, nothing else will tell you for sure if he has something physical wrong with him.


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gold-Ring...t=UK_Horse_Wear_Equipment&hash=item3a98242d88