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PucciNPoni

PucciNPoni

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THis is not a ask for veterinary advice - I am getting advice from my vet and considering the options. I'm just venting a little. Though if anyone has any "other" ideas I'm willing to listen ;)

One of my poodles (the older one who is a veteran at 8) has had struggles with colitis all his life. It's been under control for nearly 2 years and he has been looking really well. About 6 weeks ago he stopped eating. We ran a couple different blood panels and ruled out liver/kidney issue as well as pancreatitis. I've been hand feeding bland diet foods to keep him eating but he has lost 10% of his body weight since June.

Two weeks ago both dogs started having loose stools, not exactly diarrhoea but then it progressed to diarrhoea. I've kept them both at home and quiet and sent stool samples off to be tested. So far everything negative (still waiting on campylobacter). Then the vomiting started. Starved for 24 hours and then gave small amounts of food. Both kept it down and then this morning gave bland breakfast and the older dog lost it within 20 minutes. He is not dehydrated but I know my vet would prefer he be hospitalised if he can't keep the food in. Before the bouts of sickness and diarrhoea we on the verge of doing scans to see if there was a good explanation for his lack of appetite. It seems odd that all this is coming at once (and both being sick, they can't both have an obstruction surely, especially since the bitch has improved).

I'll speak to my vet later today and see what she suggests. But I'm worried naturally as I would have expected some improvement by now.
 
My apricot st.poodle girl( who passed two years ago) had similar symptoms throughout her life.
From one year through to 12.5, she had IBD,sibo ,bouts of helicobacter( stomach biopsy) ,e.coli ,proteus bacteria and on it went....in the end ,after literally spending thousands on her investigations..her regime was..
Medrol... 8mg every two days for life.
A daily probiotic.we used enterogermina.
Antibiotics as required...flagyl,amoxillin and Tylan were favorites.
And Zantak..for stomach liner...
She tested negative for addisons...so vet chose this regime and we treated her as "addisonian"

My last import was from Sweden,intensively health tested and a joy at 4 yrs not to have even a loose stool.....but genetic tests show he's a Dm carrier...I'm facing denial from all swedish breeders and Swedish kennel club saying it's not in the breed and thus won't recommend breeders to test for it.........whaaaaat?????
One uk dog from same litter has also tested as Dm carrier and his offspring also...so be careful what you buy in... E mail me for pedigree if you like.
 
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THanks Bellasophia,

all of his breeding is UK but as poodle blood lines are of an interest to me, would be keen to note.

I took him in to see the vet today, he had a jab of cerenia to stop him being sick. Got him home and two hours after his jab he was sick over and over again, vomiting water and bile and dry heaving. Gave her a quick phone to ask if I was meant to with hold water (we were starving him again today and only giving him a small bit tonight and then booked in for scans for tomorrow so needed to be starved before sedation anyway). She said no, water should have been fine, but now that he's being sick despite the cerenia that I should consider hospitalising him. So I hung up, he was sick again , and again (more dry heaving) so I just decided better he be in on fluids over night and maybe start some of the tests today.

So between tonight and tomorrow more bloods, more urine tests, scans and xray, IV fluid whatever we can do to make him comfortable. Really worried about him now. The bitch seems to have recovered pretty well from her bout of gastroenteritis, but I think whatever is causing him to not want to eat the past six weeks has weakened him so that he's not recovering as well.
 
I used to inject the ranitidine(Zantak) when my girl was nauseous..even the tablets would be brought back if we used the pill form.it really helped her a lot.
My dog also came up negative on all bloods,liver and kidney values alltested fine..it was the bacterial issues we found caused this syndrome and the dogs immune system just couldn fight them.
Good luck for your boy..I hope he gets a diagnosis and you sort this out..it's really worrying when they can't say the cause and you treat generically.

Re my current dog..
(The current boy is mostly USA lines..both parents ch world winners..father has already sired over two hundred pups ,in poodle pedigree database..so I wrote to breeder to let her know how my boy and his litter bro (in uk)had tested for the Dm..you'd think they'd want to know since they plan to breed my boys litter sister to a dog who's G.dad is also their own father..no it's not in the poodle lines she says..!
God help the future of our breed when these alleles couple up)
 
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Oh re the fluids. Ask your vet to show you how to give sub. Cutaneous fluids at home..this was very beneficial to my girl as we could rehydrate her without her having to stay overnight at the clinic.
Also when they won't eat I used to hand feed hills a/d tinned food into her..she could keep that down and it helped keep her weight on.
 
Consider treating for heartworm and giardia - both panacur treatment anyway just one is longer than the other. Both can cause lack of appetite, loose stools etc. My springer had both as a puppy

* edit to add - I know Giardia for sure does not always show up in stool tests
 
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I don't have any useful advice but just wanted to say I really hope being hospitalised helps your lad and you see some improvement soon. It must be a very worrying time.
 
Sorry to be a little off topic, but DM is interesting to me as a GSD owner. Is DM generally a problem in poodles? And is there also the same uncertainty hanging over the accuracy of the DM test in poodles, as there is in GSDs?
 
Working GSD...I can send you many links on Dm ,if you like,so as not to hijack puccis thread..there are now 15 listed breeds that they recommend testing for Dm..not just shepherds as in the old days. ST poodles are on that list and many uk breeders are now testing for this..the tests can vary depending on breed..I do know there is a specific test for poodles.
Pm me if you want more info.
This is a general link,I have others that are more detailed.
http://www.dogheirs.com/dogheirs/posts/30-canine-degenerative-myelopathy-overview
 
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Bellasophia said:
Working GSD...I can send you many links on Dm ,if you like,so as not to hijack puccis thread..there are now 15 listed breeds that they recommend testing for Dm..not just shepherds as in the old days. ST poodles are on that list and many uk breeders are now testing for this..the tests can vary depending on breed..I do know there is a specific test for poodles.
Pm me if you want more info.
This is a general link,I have others that are more detailed.
http://www.dogheirs.com/dogheirs/posts/30-canine-degenerative-myelopathy-overview
Click to expand...

Thanks. I will have a read of the link you provided. I, too, have read a great deal about DM (but mainly in relation to GSDs).
 
quick update - he had scans and bloods today (some of which need sent off to lab). So far it seems that it's unlikely he has addisons. Scans are fairly inconclusive at the moment, gall bladder a wee bit sludgy looking, which may be because he's been unwell past few days. Stomach has some areas which need investigating to rule anything out. So tomorrow endoscope under GA.

I knew that the giardia and campylobacter tests could give false negatives. It would be necessary to treat both dogs at any rate. Will discuss further with the vet at any rate.

Meantime I just had a photo texted to me by one of the nurses. They're spoiling him rotten, he probably wont want to come home at this rate ;)
 
So bloomin frustrated right now I could cry.

Brought my boy home last night. He was looking pretty bright, he'd been on iv fluids all day. He had a GA, but the endoscope failed to function after they'd started, so no better idea of why he's not eating.

He was a little out of sorts last night as you'd expect post GA, so I wrapped him up warm, offered a little food which he just picked at but again expected.

This morning he's looking depressed and refusing all food. I'm only allowed to offer him bland food, so plain cooked chicken and some EN from the vet (I have the tinned and dry version). Just refusing all, even warmed up.
 
Just tried porridge. I even tried putting a small amount in his mouth (tested to make sure it wasn't too hot) and he took great pains to spit it out. :(
 
aah, sorry-worth a shot. sometimes with my old boy I would just leave it nearby and the smell would get to him and he would eat it after about 10 mins-different reasons for not eating though. once he had his porridge he'd often go onto eating something else but I didn't have to worry about it being bland etc.
 
honestly willing to try just about anything right now. I just made myself some toast. I offered him a bit and he's sort of half heartedly licking at it. He's even acting suspicious about the water bowl. Gave him some out of a spoon and he lapped that up.
 
What an awful worry for you, I do hope they get to the bottom of this quickly so they can give appropriate treatment, in the meantime what about offering him some honey on a spoon, the good stuff of course, it might not help but wont do him any harm. Fingers crossed that he starts to eat soon and keeps it down.

Just another thought would he eat probiotic yoghurt, its bland and might stimulate his appetite.
 
I'd disregard the titbits and get some concentrated food into him..you need Hills ad canned..puree,get it on your fingers and put into the back of his throat..close mouth and he will swallow.
I've been this route for eleven years on and off..you think they are dying,then they rally..I don't know if this is a poodle thing but honestly I feel I'm in Deja vu with your post.
This was the very worst we got with my girl..

And with the hills she did regain 6kg to get back to her normal weight.

Have you tested his thyroid hormone levels?we also found low thyroid in mydog( with similar symptoms to yr boy) and put her on euthyrox.
 
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Bellasophia said:
I'd disregard the titbits and get some concentrated food into him..you need Hills ad canned..puree,get it on your fingers and put into the back of his throat..close mouth and he will swallow.
I've been this route for eleven years on and off..you think they are dying,then they rally..I don't know if this is a poodle thing but honestly I feel I'm in Deja vu with your post.
This was the very worst we got with my girl..

And with the hills she did regain 6kg to get back to her normal weight.

Have you tested his thyroid hormone levels?we also found low thyroid in mydog( with similar symptoms to yr boy) and put her on euthyrox.
Click to expand...

And yes she did get"better" but always on meds..
 
Dobiegirl said:
What an awful worry for you, I do hope they get to the bottom of this quickly so they can give appropriate treatment, in the meantime what about offering him some honey on a spoon, the good stuff of course, it might not help but wont do him any harm. Fingers crossed that he starts to eat soon and keeps it down.

Just another thought would he eat probiotic yoghurt, its bland and might stimulate his appetite.
Click to expand...

I tried honey today, and he turned his nose up at that too. He nibbled at a bit of buttered toast but that wasn't much either.
 
Bellasophia said:
I'd disregard the titbits and get some concentrated food into him..you need Hills ad canned..puree,get it on your fingers and put into the back of his throat..close mouth and he will swallow.
I've been this route for eleven years on and off..you think they are dying,then they rally..I don't know if this is a poodle thing but honestly I feel I'm in Deja vu with your post.
This was the very worst we got with my girl..

And with the hills she did regain 6kg to get back to her normal weight.

Have you tested his thyroid hormone levels?we also found low thyroid in mydog( with similar symptoms to yr boy) and put her on euthyrox.
Click to expand...

He's on something from Proplan called EN - it's a bland "mousse" which normally they love. I have it in both tinned and dry form - the dry is meant to be a bridge to get him back to normal food. Have it for the bitch as she's had the tummy bug earlier this week and she's eating fine. The EN is ideal for convalescing dogs.

My next step is to go to the shops and get some yogurt.

I tried force feeding my border terrier and that did not go well. I spent 18 months hand feeding at times trying to put it in his mouth and he just woudlnt' come near me for ages after that. I just lost him in July, and I didn't think I'd be handfeeding another so soon.
 
I'll update here so I don't hijack amymay's post any more.

So the results from yesterday's scope was still rather vague. There was nothing to see (ie no foreign body and no obvious mass). So they took some samples of the inner lining of the stomach for biopsy - and hopefully something easy to fix will show up. I think they're looking for IBD, which would show up on a biopsy, however whether or not it'll show up on a shallow tissue sample or they will need a full thickness sample remains to be seen. I'm hoping the former as otherwise it means a surgical procedure which I'd like to avoid if possible.

He woke up from his anaesthetic rather well and seems happy and bright and has been eating (and more importantly kept it down).
 
Glad he seems a little better.
Would he eat cooked rice? My aunt's schnauzer was forever upsetting his stomach by eating stones, and he always went on rice and vegetables (carrots, cabbage as far as I can remember) while he recovered from stomach upsets.
 
Thanks for all the suggestions etc.

He seems to go two steps forward, one step back. His weight is down 20% in three months so we still have to stop him from losing more. He has stopped vomiting but still has constant diarrhoea.

However, the nurses I work with are stars and they bullied the labs in to getting his biopsy report done faster so I at least now have answers. While the results are somewhat vague they are pointing at IBD and possible damage to parasites. I spoke to the vet last week about maybe treating both dogs for Giardia understanding that despite the negative result on his fecal, that it could have produced a false negative. So with the lab results in hand, that's what we'll do. Think that whatever has been causing him problems maybe has been rumbling away for a while causing him to not want to eat, and then latterly be sick with it.

He'll go on steroid and diet change starting today when I collect what I need. I don't look forward to changing his diet, he has always been a picky eater at the best of time and hoping the steroid make him ravenous enough to eat the new bland boring food.
 
Wee update in case anyone is interested, if not it works as a blog for me!

So started on the steroids on the 2nd, but didn't start his new diet til the 3rd when the food came in. I'm slowly weaning him on to it, but still mixing it with cooked chicken. As the food is meant to be very bland (I haven't tried it so can't verify) I'm wetting the kibbles with the water I poached the chicken in. He's getting fed four times a day in small meals and he's eating really well, and looking for more. He is looking well enough that I even gave him a bath and trim this weekend, which he was desperately needed. Down side to that is I can see how thin he is (probably a body score of 2 1/2 to 3 - but he has at BEST weight of 10kg been maybe a 4). Upside is he seems rather perky with his hairdo.

There has been no vomiting for a week or so now, and no diarrhoea for 2 days!

Posting a wee post groom photo - one in which he is fluffy enough to not look scrawny ;)

WP_20161104_15_07_25_Pro%201_zpsgygje6zp.jpg
 
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