Feeding a very underweight tb (with a lot of problems)

Having had a very thin horse who we couldn't get to gain any weight despite all types of high quality feed I would seriously suggest the higher level blood test which gives a full work up. Once we had this rather than the basic we were able to get to the bottom of a complex system failure which was much wider than just liver function. Unfortunately in our case this was too late as the organ failure was too much for him to recover. Have you noticed him standing and straining like he wants to wee or any ventral pitting oedema?
 
Lots of the branded horse feed on here are expensive... Baileys outshine is £40+ a bag and on max rations you'd get through that in about two weeks!

I never did find out why my skinny tb was so skinny. However it was probably due to chronic pain from the numerous problems she had.

She did just as well on cheapo pony nuts as conditioning cubes
 
Please try Gastroplus from Equine Science - it worked fantastically on my horse. If your boy has ulcers he will not be able to absorb anything correctly and the pain will take the weight off him. So all the money you are spending trying different feed will be a waste of time. Gastroplus is around £200 for a months supply - my lad only needed a months worth and then moved onto the Gut Maintenance.
 
There's no point in trying to feed the horse into a good condition if it is sick .
You need to get some good blood work done by an expert vet .
That's just the start .
 
Faracat said:
Please save up and treat the ulcers. I'm sure that a cheaper source of the active ingredient in Gastroguard (omeprazole) has been mentioned on this forum.
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Go to your doctor, plead a dodgy stomach and they prescribe omeprazole, I damaged my stomach using diclofenic for arthritis and was given omeprazole, but I would also give your lad natural yoghurt and micronised linseed, I bought a companion hatrack mare two years ago and she's blooming now, in fact she got so fat, we thought she might be pregnant, turns out she had been starved at the rescue we got her from, but it doesn't alter the fact that micronised linseed put weight on, my 20yr old TB is a very poor doer normally, this year he has lived out, had ad lib hay and one feed a day of easibeet, linseed, marmite, unmollassed chaff (BF) and he has dropped a bit , but not alot, I would try a bare foot diet along side natural yoghurt, which is known to sort out digestive problems, sorry if this is rambling, but it is late and I've had a hard day, good luck with your lad, you obviously care
 
Thanks Flirtygerty.

Interesting that you can get it for people... what stomach complaint do I need to develop?!

Linseed goes against the liver disease diet and my current plan based on his past symptoms and lots reading today is to treat him as though he has liver disease for 2 months and monitor him to see if there is any improvement using the no oil/low protein/milk thistle combo. If not, we move on.

I have had blood tests and used all kinds of remedies for ulcers previously. I simply can't afford the expensive stuff from the vets but have done everything else I can and continue because he is showing no signs of chronic pain (other than the weight loss). He is bright and happy, he doesn't stress, he hasn't changed, he is alert and doesn't hide in the corner of his stable or act aggressively. He is sweet and lovely natured. There is nothing to suggest he is suffering pain.

Presumably, if ulcers were stopping him absorbing any nutrients at all, he wouldn't have done so well last summer on the grass. The problem occurs when the grass loses quality at the end of summer and I have to start using hard feed to replace it as hay alone isn't enough for him. He is capable of gaining weight and muscle because he does it. He loses weight when I'm feeding him for condition, so the problem seems to be in digesting the conditioning food (in line with liver disease). He does well on only grass.
 
Ad lib fibre will help both the ulcers and the liver issue.. I would personally drop EVERYTHING from his diet and feed him ad lib, quality hay. Can people in the UK access cereal hays?
You need at least 12 MJ/KG digestible energy, high digestibility and not more than 10% protein. This is a big ask with UK hay I think but would be the best thing for him. If you can find it, it will be enough for him (if he gets it truly ad lib) unless/until he is in full work. Adult horses do not need more than 10% protein in their diet.
Feed ad lib - and I mean in front of him ALL the time. Buy a slow feeder hay net.
The ulcers will be contributing to hims eating so slowly - we had a pony here with ulcers and it would take him all night to eat 5 litres of feed. If you cannot afford the omperazole etc then aloe vera is good, or slippery elm.
Whack him full of B vitamins - B12 is liver protective and good appetite stimulant. Feed milk thistle.
 
My horse that was thin showed no signs of being in pain either. Until bloods were done (the expensive comprehensive one) and guess what she had problems.

Is he on DIY or full livery? If the latter are they actually feeding him
 
i think some people are being a little quick to judge here, gastro guard is impossibly expensive for most people and even the Omeprazole from Abler is hundreds a month at full dose.

Ive done both and it absolutely crippled me and im probably still paying the bill off my credit card!

OP my horse is not the best doer and has been tried on gastroguard, omeprazole and numerous other supplements for ulcers.

the one that made the biggest diff is Egusin SLH. He did one tub (£85 for 2 weeks) at full dose, one tub at half dose and is now on 1/4 dose daily which keeps him happy.

he's recently started having 2 x gaviscon double action and 1 x zantac in every feed and seems happier again (despite that being a tiny dose for horses) you can them both cheaply in boots so maybe try that?

as long as mine continues to improve im going to try to taper the egusin off and just use the gaviscon and zantac and see how he gets on :) (just to see what works best, if he needs all 3 he will go back on all 3 )
 
MrsD123 said:
Well, I am not sure what you want, are you saying he is not worth it, so will be shooting him and buying another one?
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This is completely unnecessary, the OP clearly loves her horse and is doing all she can, you don't know her circumstances which dictate why she can't afford gastroguard and your nasty post isn't helping. Sorry OP, I have nothing helpful to add as I have no experiences of ulcers/ thin horses (mine are the other way unfortunately) but I hope you get sorted with him.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
i think some people are being a little quick to judge here, gastro guard is impossibly expensive for most people and even the Omeprazole from Abler is hundreds a month at full dose.
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I think it was more the fact that a number of different people have perhaps suggested that there may be pain elsewhere in the horse (myself being one).

If OP can highlight exactly what has been tested with the horse, and what the results were, then we can probably advise better.

For example if they have had the £200+ blood test done, and found there is nothing wrong, well liver function, internal stuff etc should all be fine.

The comprehensive bloods on my horse showed that she had some kind of internal abcess. Got that sorted, horse still didnt put on any weight. I eventually found out that my horse had chronic kissing spines, and probably never put on weight due to the amount of pain she was in.

I can relate to the statment saying they dont have much money to spend, however my arguement is that you can spend hundreds in different feeds over a period of a few months, as well as the livery that goes with it, whereas sometimes its easier to spend this money at least getting some kind of idea of whats wrong with the horse.
 
I think you are a on a bit of a losing battle here, OP. You need to find out what the horse's ailments are and have them treated in order to make a difference, and it seems that you can't afford to do that, so in effect, you are throwing good money after bad.
As heartbreaking as it is, you either need to find the funds to have the horse treated or call it a day.
 
I understand what you are saying PS as I've had to pay for Gastroguard in the past and it is eye-wateringly expensive. However I have had a horse (the one that was being treated for ulcers) colic and die due to stomach ulcers that hemorrhaged. I wouldn't have been able to live with myself if that had happened and I hadn't tried to treat the ulcers.
 
Here are a few suggestions.....

Liver Problems = Milk Thistle
Weight Management = Straight cooked Linseed (micronized linseed)
Stomach issues = Activated charcoal

Try Equus Health, I've heard they are helpful... Good luck and I hope you get it sorted.

(I hope this works...ive just joined!)
 
Mitchel said:
Here are a few suggestions.....

Liver Problems = Milk Thistle
Weight Management = Straight cooked Linseed (micronized linseed)
Stomach issues = Activated charcoal

Try Equus Health, I've heard they are helpful... Good luck and I hope you get it sorted.

(I hope this works...ive just joined!)
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Sadly you would need to avoid oil if the horse has a compromised liver.

I tend to agree that the root of the problem needs to be established, otherwise anything you feed would be like throwing mud at a wall in the hope that some of it sticks.
 
Just a thought on the pain issue we need to remember that as a prey animal horses are really good at hiding even high levels of pain. My recent experience with the horse I described in previous post on this thread is that he must have been in really significant pain but outwardly looked well, had a good coat and seemed interested and bright. With hindsight I wouldn't have intervened earlier as there were no obvious signs.
 
He has had a comprehensive blood test done... This is how I know about the slightly raised liver enzymes! This was the only abnormality, and it was slight.

To the person pointing out that I'm spending a fortune on feed and livery and farrier etc... Those things don't stop just because you have to pay vets bills. Vet bills are on top! I racked up over £600 in 2 days for the said blood panel, call outs, consults, tested his droppings, paraffin because his droppings were hard. The cost of gastroguard alone is more than I earn in a month as a part-time admin.

I'm a student working as much as possible. I don't earn much and what I do is so that I can have my horse. My life would be more financially comfortable without, but I can't sell him, can't insure him as he's excluded on everything I need and I'm not willing to put him down until I'm happy I've tried all I can after, especially all this effort to sort him. If I had him put down the other day, then someone said liver disease I'd be devastated that I'd never come across the idea which seems to fit every symptom and had opportunity to try treating it like liver disease, as would anyone.

For the people suggesting herbal remedies, thanks. He's on a cereal free diet (has been for just over 12 months), he also gets charcoal, spearmint, tried Rennies as many suggestions to settle stomach acid and is now on Top Spec Comp. Balancer which seems to have a lot of B vits and digestive aids. Basically everything I can give him other than the crazy expensive gastroguard.

His condition is the same as last spring and by end of summer he looked amazing so this weight loss isn't persistent or degenerative or chronic, he can do it on the right diet.

He is on ad lib hay and I've used fibre beet for a long while. He's not the type to scoff hay, he eats about 14lb a night and this isn't quite enough on its own. Dentist has done teeth so this isn't slowing him.

If I had any means of affording omeprazole (as gastroguard or other) I'd have him scoped again and he'd have it if needed but as I understand the problems I genuinely believe this problem runs deeper, due to his ability to gain weight over summer and the fact he stopped cribbing.
 
Do you know his full history? The reason I ask is that my old boy had two major colic operations many, many years ago and lost about 18 foot of intestines. As a result, he spends each winter looking like an RSPCA case, but puts enough weight back on through the spring and summer on good grass to survive another winter, he simply can't digest anything other than grass and forage. I have tried just about every feed and supplement on the market and found that anything with cereal in makes him crib and wood chew like crazy. I've found that the best top quality haylage and Red Bag Grass Nuts by Simple Systems (mad from spring grass) and Thunderbrook basemix are the most effective at keeping him reasonable through the winter. He also loves Coolstance Copra and micronized linseed, but obviously you need the liver issue confirming before you add any oil based feed. I found he did fairly well on Pure Feeds and Dodson and Horrell ERS Pellets, basically anything low starch with no cereal in. Having said that, I am currently trailing him on Slobber Mash (thanks Prince33Sp4rkle !), which is in theory quit high starch and does contain cereals, and he hasn't started cribbing yet so this is another option you could look at and Rowen Barbary feeds have been highly recommended to me in the past? Good luck with him, you are clearly a caring owner and having experienced similar issues with my horse of a lifetime, I do appreciate what you are going through x
 
Ellibelli said:
Do you know his full history? The reason I ask is that my old boy had two major colic operations many, many years ago and lost about 18 foot of intestines. As a result, he spends each winter looking like an RSPCA case, but puts enough weight back on through the spring and summer on good grass to survive another winter, he simply can't digest anything other than grass and forage. I have tried just about every feed and supplement on the market and found that anything with cereal in makes him crib and wood chew like crazy. I've found that the best top quality haylage and Red Bag Grass Nuts by Simple Systems (mad from spring grass) and Thunderbrook basemix are the most effective at keeping him reasonable through the winter. He also loves Coolstance Copra and micronized linseed, but obviously you need the liver issue confirming before you add any oil based feed. I found he did fairly well on Pure Feeds and Dodson and Horrell ERS Pellets, basically anything low starch with no cereal in. Having said that, I am currently trailing him on Slobber Mash (thanks Prince33Sp4rkle !), which is in theory quit high starch and does contain cereals, and he hasn't started cribbing yet so this is another option you could look at and Rowen Barbary feeds have been highly recommended to me in the past? Good luck with him, you are clearly a caring owner and having experienced similar issues with my horse of a lifetime, I do appreciate what you are going through x
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let me know how you get on with the slobbermash :)

once you know what his issues are OP this could be an option for you if he can tolerate it, my TB has never looked so well on it but it can make them buzzy if they are that way inclined!
 
I asked my friend yesterday about the gastro guard as she was going to get it for her horse with suspected ulcers and due to cost she ordered an omerpr product from abler which was £150 for a months supply she also said that apparently equine america do a product for ulcers which her trainer swears by
 
I would find the very best grass livery you can (preferably on a farm with proper managed grassland) and keep him out 24/7 all year round.
I did this with my very skinny horse and she has been normal ever since, she just doesn't thrive in a stable/ on hard feed.
 
This is a fascinating read! Id like to reach out to the person posting and encourage them to get in touch if they want to see photos of a horse displaying exactly the same weight problem! Kookie1988@hotmail.co.uk

We have a 18yo ex NH gelding, rehomed as a rescue looking fat after a summer at good grass, but Very poor feet and very stressy. Within a month he had dropped weight to look like a coat rack. And we have never been able to get weight on him in the last 3 years. We have tried everything! Moved yards 3 times. Vet did simple bloods but thy came back normal, so discouraged to do more. He is happy in himself, but looks aweful. He has intermittent illness (abcess's, corns, coughs, colds, occasional stiffness, puffy legs) but they all come an go. The latest was a bout of hives lasting 3 months. Vets just scratch their heads. Tried every feed, physio, farriers, rugs, hay etc. nothing puts weight on him. So we have talked about having him pts but not felt at that stage yet. He is happy as a companion and ridden for ROR shows.
Sometimes we feel he is just one of those horses who will never gain weight unless fully retired to grass, and as that is not an option with us he will be pts when his time is up, it's kinder than letting him get into the wrong hands.
 
I've been meaning to post an update here, but forgot until I just saw this...

I have good news. Jake has gained weight really well over the last few weeks, I'm amazed at the difference in him.

10351244_10152801775429606_5242241125204401059_n.jpg


(from this 6 weeks ago)
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So, this is what I've been doing differently...

He has settled on the new yard, first of all. At the moment he's out during the day, in on a night until the end of May when the summer field will be ready.


He's on the Equine America Ulser Gard (it was £25 and within a week I noticed he was happier in himself, more chilled in his stables. I often find him snoozing.)

He gets two feeds a day of sugarbeet/fibrebeet, top spec balancer, the ulser gard and a handful of fibre nuts. Nothing else. No fats or cereal.

Rugged up slightly warmer than you might think on a night.

But most importantly I feel, he stopped eating his hay (obv. the spring grass makes the hay boring!) so I've been filling, (stuffed to the brim) a treatball, every night, with fibre nuts. Within days he started to gain. I think it's a combination of this teamed with the ulser gard. Perhaps a touch of the spring grass too, though his field isn't very full.

He is in regular, good work again and starting to build some muscle.

I really never thought I'd see the difference from such simple little changes. Fibrebeet, the ulser gard and fibre nuts as a hay replacer, or on top of hay. Obviously he has a long way to go, but the improvement is vast.
 
I've just written out a long post re: the need for treatment of the gastric ulcers. I have now seen the update that you have posted.
Thank God that he's receiving something to help relieve the symptoms. gastric ulcers are agonising and can be life threatening if not treated. I still think that he should receive GastroGuard which will actually heal the lesions/ulcers and not just mask the symptoms. It shouldn't matter that your insurance won't cover the cost, it's your responsibility as an owner to get veterinary treatment for your horse when it's needed.
 
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