Feeding a very underweight tb (with a lot of problems)

"I've been filling, (stuffed to the brim) a treatball, every night, with fibre nuts. Within days he started to gain. I think it's a combination of this teamed with the ulser gard. Perhaps a touch of the spring grass too, though his field isn't very full."

THIS..
And flojo my understanding of gastric ulcers is that, given time, fibre in the stomach ALL the time, and protection from further acid (which the Ulser Gard appears to do) the ulcers will heal themselves. Unlike human ulcers, there is no bacterial invilvment, so as long as you can prevent further damage, the stomach lining can heal itself.
All that said, I don't think I'd EVER take this horse off the Ulser Gard.
He looks heaps better - well done Nikita!
 
I'm sorry but by the Owner's admission this horse has been struggling for 2 years!

I can tell that she wants to do whats best for her horse, that's obvious.
What I can't understand is why spend all that money on different feeds and supplements when it could have been used to pay for veterinary treatment that would have solved the problem? I just don't get it.

OwnedbyJoe said:
And flojo my understanding of gastric ulcers is that, given time, fibre in the stomach ALL the time, and protection from further acid (which the Ulser Gard appears to do) the ulcers will heal themselves. Unlike human ulcers, there is no bacterial invilvment, so as long as you can prevent further damage, the stomach lining can heal itself.!
Click to expand...

I'm quite aware what causes equine gastric ulcers and how to treat them thank you. But like I said, after TWO years this horse was still struggling...Just how long do you leave ulcers to 'heal themselves'???
 
id echo the other posters saying you could be throwing good money away without getting to the root of the cause. i was in a similar position with my ish, he lost weight, looked terrible, coat was awful, kicked whenever you went near his belly. I was convinced it was ulcers and i would have bet my life on it. I was going to start a gastroguard trial but vet convinced me to send him in for a full check up as she didn't think it was ulcers (even though all the symptoms were there). He went into the large student veterinary hospital here, got scoped and full work up and treatment for 450 euro. Turned out it wasn't ulcers, he was in chronic pain with a back lesion, mild kissing spine and osteoarthritis in his hocks. I already have an exracer with kissing spine and in a million years i wouldn't have suspected this other horse had a back issue. he's been jumping and working well, with no signs of discomfort in his back apart from tension in canter. He loves his job so he'd kept working well despite the pain. The pain had cause the weightloss, bad coat and all the other symptoms.

I'm so glad the vet made me send him in. In all honesty i would have spent more money on gastroguard and changing feed otherwise and it wouldn't have helped a bit.
 
Hmm... Never suggested the ulcers were going to "heal themselves" in the preceding 2 years. What I said was that NOW, on the diet she has him on with the Ulser Gard, they stand a pretty good job of healing themselves (and seem to be doing so if he is that much happier). She is not just "masking the symptoms" NOW, as you suggested:

I still think that he should receive GastroGuard which will actually heal the lesions/ulcers and not just mask the symptoms.
Click to expand...

and I see little advantage at this stage switching to Gastrogard. What she is doing appears to be helping the horse, so perhaps she would be wise to stick with it!
 
Lovely to see him back looking much better! One of mine has a liver enzyme problem at the moment and he is on milk thistle......£20 and will last almost 2 months. They also recommended Allen & Page Fast Fibre which he seems to love as a great weight gainer with no cereal in it. Just soak for 30 seconds.....probably similar affect to the fibre beet you are using.x
 
My horse was like yours until he had his ulcers treated. Unfortunately I think you need to just start the treatment, otherwise all the money you are spending on food is going to waste.
Speak to your vet about human treatments, they maybe cheaper than gastroguard.
 
Why are you feeding mixes when he has ulcers!! mixes or corn are bad for ulcers, most of the symptoms above are all linked to the ulcers hence why he doesnt eat has this will hurt him and colic is classic sign of ulcers because he is in so much pain!!! get him on a good medication for ulcers if you cant afford gastro guard get him on gastroplus this is lots cheaper and worked on my horse!! a good maintance for ulcers and good grass 24/7 if poss and on chilly nights a rug on bet you in a month you will see a massive difference!! good luck hun keep everyone posted how you get on
 
I haven't read all of the replies but OP if you want to try an ulcer supplement I have used Abrazole with great success. It is Omperazole (sp?) Combined with a carrier and works just as well as Gastroguard but is much much cheaper.
My mum had used Equine Science Gastroplus with her ex racer with a lot of success. He has always been hard to keep weight on and he looks a beast now :)
 
Ive not read all of the replies. My horse had ulcers and I did manage to get him treated with GG and cribs, however this is what I do.

Feed: simple system lucie pellets, alfa a molasses free, top spec comprehensive balancer. In winter add linseed and up portions, he's doing very well at the moment so he is on the lite balancer as of the weekend. The comprehensive balancer is very good so I think you are on the right track. I also use global herbs restore (liquid) 1ltr bottle every 3 months, it is a liver tonic which gives them a boost and it is really good. I also use protexin, when i worm i use the paste for a few days so it doesnt cause stomach upsets, i am trying the acid ease at the moment but usually use the gut balancer, fab stuff, really is.

For ulcers you can use abrazole which is from america, zantac is relatively cheap (speak to your vet about trying this, needs to be given 2/3 times a day to work like GG but still works) or a new product on the market which has been tested like GG. This is Peptizole, it is cheaper and you get more in a syringe so will last longer.

If you know ulcers are there then dont give up on this horse, it must be whats causing the problems, its sad but you can really make a difference without spending a fortune.
 
There are pics of my guy in my profile I think.

I tried a whole range of things (used to work as a rep for a feed company) the best thing I did was to put him on Oats, alfalfa chaff (always had alfalfa chaff with the different diets and this didn't change), plenty of salt and a good multi vit. I found brewers yeast helpful as well.

The change in him was amazing and I wish I had done progress pics. He go to the point where he could summer on grass and vits alone and just needed oats for a weight top up over winter.

He had adlib fibre (grass or hay or combo) all thru
 
Also just read back a few pages where you thought there was another problem not just ulcers as in spring puts weight on and practically stops cribbing. Mine does the same and there is no other problems. I think there is always enough grass in spring that they don't feel the need to crib and the extra nutrients in the grass puts the weight on. A good quality hay helps to, the long dry grass really lines the stomach, mine gets ad lib.
Good luck and by the sounds of the cost i think zantac/ranitidine might be the best option for you price wise.
 
Lets assume all veterinary tests have been undertaken to exclude other health issues and he is in OK health, and teeth of course are sorted - by properly qualified EDT. If not all sorted on vet and teeth front that needs to be done first.
Does he actually need that hard feed - for energy?
Decent hay (or grass) provides the genuine bulk of the horses diet - this is the feed which puts weight on in the first place - this is the most natural feed and what horses need most of. He is not really working that much so does not need hard feed (energy food) - or does he ?

is he sluggish and slow when ridden ? if not then maybe just give a good all round balancer (supplement in a carrier) and fill him up with good hay/grass

why not just give it a try - fibre feeds instead. Perhaps you need to step back and rethink it all - give bulk 'fibre feed for fat' (the 4 f's) and 'hard feed for energy'. Sometimes hard feed (to some horses) is like giving e numbers or sugar drinks like coke to kids - makes them busy so they burn up all their food instead of it running to fat - so it doesnt put on weight it just gets burned off. Take it back to basics give fibre feed for fat. Might not be the issue but could be worth thinking about anyway.
 
He's very much on this approach now and it's working well. He gets sugarbeet, balancer and the ulcer supplement. That's his feeds.


Otherwise he's just on the grass.

When he's in, he the gets baileys fibre nuggets in a treat ball as he wont entertain any hay at all now that the spring grass has come through.

For those interested, this was a couple of days ago.

image_zps9a869ab6.jpg
 
First thing I would even though you have a good worming program is to. Bomb drench him. Worm weekly for three weeks with a broad spectrum wormer, one that contains Ivermectin and Praziquontal. Having worked in quite a few racing stables their worming programmes can be quite variable to non existent.

Next a really good Equine Dentist, with a gag, to check his teeth really carefully.

Then have a chiro check him over thoroughly. Many years ago I had a TB off the track who was like yours. He turned out to have his neck out of alignment and was in constant low grade pain. Finally manipulated under anaesthetic his weight gain was amazing.

Have you tried Copra yet, it's great for putting on weight.
 
NikitaFellows said:
He's very much on this approach now and it's working well. He gets sugarbeet, balancer and the ulcer supplement. That's his feeds.


Otherwise he's just on the grass.

When he's in, he the gets baileys fibre nuggets in a treat ball as he wont entertain any hay at all now that the spring grass has come through.

For those interested, this was a couple of days ago.

image_zps9a869ab6.jpg
Click to expand...
Just wanted to say well done OP. Well done for keeping on trying with your horse. His weight gain is tremendous, you must be so pleased. Here's hoping he will continue to flourish and you can now have lots of fun together.
 
After someone contacted me recently after reading this thread, I thought I'd post a quick update for those interested. Pics first.

This was the state I bought him in:

421342_10150754962909606_1466447628_n.jpg


This was two years in, at the end of winter. This was not at his worst, (unfortunately). I deleted all photos I had of him at his worst because I couldn't bear to look at them.

1900164_10152604672709606_966049408_n.jpg



These are now:

11822860_10154052199264606_8318508970187168712_n.jpg


Schooling about 8 weeks ago.

12109235_10154295863074606_8244627465842186472_n.jpg



As you can see... we've come a REALLY long way.

He still cribs badly. He still doesn't hold weight as much as I'd like in the winter, but he holds enough that he can be kept in good work all winter. But, generally, as you can see, he looks great and is much happier.

Feed and management wise I've discovered:

Things that work:

Moving yards to somewhere with few horses, lots of well-managed grass, as much turnout as possible and amazing haylege. (I'd spent years avoiding haylege on everyone's advice, but it works for him, so I'm putting it here.)

Feed:
Baileys Fibre Plus nuggets (in fairly large quanities in his treat ball.)
Baileys Keep Calm (small amounts and fed quite sloppy)
Saracen Equijewel (because it's the only stabilised rice bran I can get) - 1 small scoop a day soaked.
Fenugreek - see link below.
Lecithin granules (soaked) - see link below. I like to feed this first on it's own with a touch of the soaked rice bran.
Brewer's Yeast - 40g a day - thinking of trying Yea Sacc to replace this when I can get hold of some.
Micronised Linseed - There's a bit of debate on whether this sends horses loopy. It certainly gave Jake an edge when fed in large amounts (read: it bronced and was a total loon) so I've cut down to a sprinkle which seems to work.


http://goodhorsekeeping.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/ulcers-in-horses.html This page was really useful. I don't use everything listed but lots of info and ideas. The comments are equally as useful as the initial post.

Things that didn't work:
The huge majority of things that traditionally put weight on. Anything high in starch or sugars. Anything with cereal. Anything wheatfeed based, though he can tolerate a bit.
Readymash - A mistake in the early days, it made him a skinny, crazy psychopath. It was like rocket fuel.
A&P Calm and Condition - useless.
Bailey's Topline Cubes - too much cereal. He dropped weight. Again a mistake in early days taking other people's advice.
Veg Oil in his feed - turned his nose up. Much easier ways to get oil in him (eg. rice bran)
Alfalfa - Some say do, some say don't. I saw no benefit.


Middle Ground:
Equine America Ulser Gard - I used this for a while and sometimes felt it helped, sometimes didn't. With the current feed regime I don't use it. If he dropped weight drastically again I'd consider trying it again.

Dengie Healthy Tummy - on the yard before this with poor grazing I used this. It didn't do much, but certainly didn't hurt or make him drop weight.

He's still not insured, still can't get gastroguard or more scoping, though I'm more convinced than ever it's a hindgut issue, and since this management agrees with him, I see no reason to change it.

I hope some of this may be helpful to others in similar situations. Even if it's just motivation not to give up. It's taken me almost 4 years to get to this point.
 
Thanks! :D

He goes mad for them and a few friends who've tried them all come back with positive comments too. They are handy as feed, treats and a perfect fit for the treat ball. They also don't crumble in your coat pocket if you want to carty a few around, which is a bonus. (Unless you put them in the washing machine! Doh!) Bailey's are a nice company to deal with too. I'm planning to read up on the Complete Fibre Plus Nuggets and see what the difference is.
 
NikitaFellows said:
I'm planning to read up on the Complete Fibre Plus Nuggets and see what the difference is.
Click to expand...

The idea of them is great but sadly they seem to be high in cereals :( I just stick to the fibre plus in a treat ball then give a feed of chaff and a balancer plus linseed in the winter.
 
Wow he looks amazing! well done you for sticking by him and spending time and effort on what works for him.

There should be more owners like you :-)
 
NikitaFellows said:
After someone contacted me recently after reading this thread, I thought I'd post a quick update for those interested. Pics first.

This was the state I bought him in:

421342_10150754962909606_1466447628_n.jpg


This was two years in, at the end of winter. This was not at his worst, (unfortunately). I deleted all photos I had of him at his worst because I couldn't bear to look at them.

1900164_10152604672709606_966049408_n.jpg



These are now:

11822860_10154052199264606_8318508970187168712_n.jpg


Schooling about 8 weeks ago.

12109235_10154295863074606_8244627465842186472_n.jpg



As you can see... we've come a REALLY long way.

He still cribs badly. He still doesn't hold weight as much as I'd like in the winter, but he holds enough that he can be kept in good work all winter. But, generally, as you can see, he looks great and is much happier.

Feed and management wise I've discovered:

Things that work:

Moving yards to somewhere with few horses, lots of well-managed grass, as much turnout as possible and amazing haylege. (I'd spent years avoiding haylege on everyone's advice, but it works for him, so I'm putting it here.)

Feed:
Baileys Fibre Plus nuggets (in fairly large quanities in his treat ball.)
Baileys Keep Calm (small amounts and fed quite sloppy)
Saracen Equijewel (because it's the only stabilised rice bran I can get) - 1 small scoop a day soaked.
Fenugreek - see link below.
Lecithin granules (soaked) - see link below. I like to feed this first on it's own with a touch of the soaked rice bran.
Brewer's Yeast - 40g a day - thinking of trying Yea Sacc to replace this when I can get hold of some.
Micronised Linseed - There's a bit of debate on whether this sends horses loopy. It certainly gave Jake an edge when fed in large amounts (read: it bronced and was a total loon) so I've cut down to a sprinkle which seems to work.


http://goodhorsekeeping.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/ulcers-in-horses.html This page was really useful. I don't use everything listed but lots of info and ideas. The comments are equally as useful as the initial post.

Things that didn't work:
The huge majority of things that traditionally put weight on. Anything high in starch or sugars. Anything with cereal. Anything wheatfeed based, though he can tolerate a bit.
Readymash - A mistake in the early days, it made him a skinny, crazy psychopath. It was like rocket fuel.
A&P Calm and Condition - useless.
Bailey's Topline Cubes - too much cereal. He dropped weight. Again a mistake in early days taking other people's advice.
Veg Oil in his feed - turned his nose up. Much easier ways to get oil in him (eg. rice bran)
Alfalfa - Some say do, some say don't. I saw no benefit.


Middle Ground:
Equine America Ulser Gard - I used this for a while and sometimes felt it helped, sometimes didn't. With the current feed regime I don't use it. If he dropped weight drastically again I'd consider trying it again.

Dengie Healthy Tummy - on the yard before this with poor grazing I used this. It didn't do much, but certainly didn't hurt or make him drop weight.

He's still not insured, still can't get gastroguard or more scoping, though I'm more convinced than ever it's a hindgut issue, and since this management agrees with him, I see no reason to change it.

I hope some of this may be helpful to others in similar situations. Even if it's just motivation not to give up. It's taken me almost 4 years to get to this point.
Click to expand...

Where do you get Lecithin from? I can only find stuff for humans!do you use that?
 
That's the stuff. You can get it in Holland and Barrett. It's cheaper to order it in bulk online, but H&B do tubs of the granules to get you started. They're about £6.
 
He looks great OP! Don't know if this will help you but Falcon Equine Feeds do Rice Bran - you can order online I it is £27 for 20kg with £6 delivery to your door. This might work out cheaper than the Equi Jewel and they are great to deal with.
 
I have a small scoop I use for supplements (sorry I don't know the exact measure of it). I give him two of these a day, so roughly a handful in all, and I soak it along with cup of rice bran for 10 minutes before feeding.
 
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