Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
TBH that works for me protein from several sources and the right sort of work programme.
These things can be overcomplicated.
Feeding for Muscle not weight gain
- Thread starter Event_girl
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TBH that works for me protein from several sources and the right sort of work programme.
These things can be overcomplicated.
NeverSayNever
Well-Known Member
i really dont know about feeding it on its own, maybe ring forage plus or pro earth to see what they say?
they sell it afterall..
http://shop.forageplus.com/L-Lysine
Tnavas
Well-Known Member
Those levels of protein are far to high for the average horse and are the levels you would feed a racehorse.
Feeding to much protein is a waste of your money and is detrimental to your horses health - making the kidneys work too hard to clear the excess.
Your average horse only needs between 8 & 10% to work to a good medium level of work load.
NeverSayNever
Well-Known Member
even baileys lowcal is 16%... so are you saying most of these companies include too high a level?
eta - i used to use formula4feet which is 22% !
Event_girl
Well-Known Member
NeverSayNever
Well-Known Member
got me thinking now EG as years ago i was feeding formula4feet and that particular pony had fab muscle tone
Event_girl
Well-Known Member
I want to feed extra protein to help muscle gain, but I don't want to feed too much and damage her kidneys
Oscar
Well-Known Member
To build muscles we need protein not fat, and actually we build muscles by tearing/damaging them and they repair, hence getting bigger stronger - but to repair the muscles also need rest.
Red Mills full fat soya is 33.5% protein, and 19% oil, so I feed this to mine.
ETA. I pay £17 for a 25kg sack
Red Mills full fat soya is 33.5% protein, and 19% oil, so I feed this to mine.
ETA. I pay £17 for a 25kg sack
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Event_girl
Well-Known Member
It says it's high in fat and protein? Surely this will make her put weight on?
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tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
You can feed any kind of protein you like but most of it is excreted.
Protein is used for muscle repair, tissue repair and growth. In adult horses, unless used up, you are literally making the horses liver and kidneys work much harder than it needs to and the wee will be yellow and cloudy because the body cannot store protein.
Foals and mares and possibly geriatrics need 16% protein and racehorses but a normal working horse does well on 10%.
It's such a waste of money but feed companies know people will buy it.
At our beef farm... The stores get 16% and they are being grown for steaks and roasting joints! Wy on earth would an adult horse need that much??
Protein is used for muscle repair, tissue repair and growth. In adult horses, unless used up, you are literally making the horses liver and kidneys work much harder than it needs to and the wee will be yellow and cloudy because the body cannot store protein.
Foals and mares and possibly geriatrics need 16% protein and racehorses but a normal working horse does well on 10%.
It's such a waste of money but feed companies know people will buy it.
At our beef farm... The stores get 16% and they are being grown for steaks and roasting joints! Wy on earth would an adult horse need that much??
AmyMay
Situation normal
How much work does the horse get op?
Event_girl
Well-Known Member
She is worked 6 days a week, mixture of schooling (about an hour each time), jumping (30 mins each time) and hacking (up to 2 1/2 hours)
Tnavas
Well-Known Member
even baileys lowcal is 16%... so are you saying most of these companies include too high a level?
eta - i used to use formula4feet which is 22% !
Yes - that's just it - far too much protein - does absolutely nothing for your horse except overload its kidneys and make its box stink of ammonia.
AmyMay
Situation normal
Tnavas
Well-Known Member
This is Light level work and would be fine on a 8% protein ration.
Feed companies just see horse owners coming with open purses!
Sometimes I wonder how our horses survived working 6 days a week, trotting steadily for an hour on each ride, being hunted twice a week on oats, barley and sugarbeet and meadow hay - no supplements bar salt and limestone flour.
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Event_girl
Well-Known Member
For instance -
Monday - 1 hour schooling
Tuesday - 30 mins jumping
Wednesday - day off
Thursday - 20 mins pessoa
Friday - 1 hour schooling
Sat - 2 hour hack
Sun - 2 hour hack
Currently on restricted grazing, fed handful of chaff to put general min and vit supplement in
Weight is perfect, but needs more muscle.
AmyMay
Situation normal
If you increase her hacking, and drop the jumping and the pessoa, you should find her muscle tone improves.
Long, slow, steady work (with a goodly amount of trotting) into the contact and you should see a difference quickly.
She's not working that hard at present. So increase the work (hacking) and then you can increase her feed. I love Alpha A Oil and D&H Build up cubes. Never had anything look bad on it. But the horses do have to be working hard to be on it (in order not to become fat).
Remember, you're not feeding anything really to her at the moment, so she doesn't have the opportunity to put muscle on.
But this can only be done with a proper work and feeding regime.
Long, slow, steady work (with a goodly amount of trotting) into the contact and you should see a difference quickly.
She's not working that hard at present. So increase the work (hacking) and then you can increase her feed. I love Alpha A Oil and D&H Build up cubes. Never had anything look bad on it. But the horses do have to be working hard to be on it (in order not to become fat).
Remember, you're not feeding anything really to her at the moment, so she doesn't have the opportunity to put muscle on.
But this can only be done with a proper work and feeding regime.
Event_girl
Well-Known Member
Thank you for this info, really helpful.
However, I'm not feeding her anything because she lives off fresh air, that's why I was asking if there is anything I can add to her feed that will help her gain muscle but not weight.
Surely upping her workload but then feeding her more defeats the object of her being on restricted grazing?
AmyMay
Situation normal
If you want a fit, trim horse you have to work it and feed it.
If you want a trim horse, that is not fit and lacks muscle - continue as you are.
Event_girl
Well-Known Member
Roasted Chestnuts
Well-Known Member
I feed also have a good doer who needed muscle and not fat and I've went for alfalfa in various forms, linseed and oats and she's looking muscled and fit.
I do alot of hill and interval work also to help build her up.
I do alot of hill and interval work also to help build her up.
TwoStroke
Well-Known Member
I agree that you shouldn't overfeed protein... However, I think saying a balancer such as forage plus is over supplying protein is misleading.
It has 16.73% protein yes, but is only fed at a rate of 100g per day. The protein percentage you quote is for the entire feed consumed by a horse per day (so about 10kg dry matter for a 500kg horse). 16.73% of 100g is 16.73g... compared to between 800g to 1kg of protein required by a 500kg horse per day - such a small amount as that provided by the Forage Plus balancer is NOT going to overload a horse's kidneys!
AmyMay
Situation normal
Event_girl
Well-Known Member
Thank you. What oats do you feed and how much linseed?
AmyMay
Situation normal
This is really good advice. And I would agree about the oats and linseed especially, as it's cheaper than say a build up feed etc.
The hill work and interval work is key - and is what I also meant in my 'upping' your hacking work.
Roasted Chestnuts
Well-Known Member
Just bog standard oats and linseed meal she gets roughly half a mug daily.
She does and looks well on this and if she drops I up the linseed and alfalfa.
Event_girl
Well-Known Member
Thank you, and thanks amymay
criso
Coming over here & taking your jobs since 1900
You can overfeed anything but if you are not currently feeding a balancer or pre balanced feed in the quantities required, you are likely to be short in Lysine.
If you were you would want to check you are not double dosing.
Talking about protein, the levels is a scoop of supplement even if they are high in percentage are not an overall problem.
To give an example - Speedibeet has 9% protein, you may be feeding half a stubbs scoop daily, that is going to have a much higher impact on the protein levels of the overall diet than a 50ml supplement scoop of balancer even if the percentage is higher.
The forageplus balancer has Linseed as a carrier which is high protein but a good addition to feed in moderation nonetheless. Nothing else in it will supply protein as it is only minerals.
As Amymay says, nothing will create muscle without putting the right work in and you do need to feed an adequate level of protein
I also agree that Oats and Linseed are a good place to start, with these Lysine is a good addition because it helps with muscle building and is difficult to supply with feed; however I might also be tempted just to go down the balancer route which will not only add lysine but also other things.
honetpot
Well-Known Member
I think that the idea that if you feed the right food will give you or your horse a better body ludicrous I know this poster wants to build muscle but its the same idea that showing people have that food builds 'top line' what ever that is.
I good diet that supports general health will enable you to exercise the muscles to either make them larger or work for longer. Some people and horses have larger muslces to start off with , with horses the draft breeds were devloped for pulling heavy loads over a long periods were as racehorse have be developed for mainly sprinting, no matter how much food and protien and exercise you put in the racehorse will develope more muscle but it will not turn into a draft horse.It has to have the muscle groups and the confirmation in the right place first.
So thinking of it is like looking at a body builder, what muscle have I got, what do I want to atcheive, with a horse why and then what exercises do I need to do to get this.
Yes the right protein is important in a balanced diet but any excess is not stored and can put strain on the kidneys. This pony has the problem that it stores calories well so protein that has a fat source or high starch content will make it put on more fat weight unless the excercise given burns off the excess calories. I would go for a good quality balancer if its getting fat on it more work or cut the roughage with straw 50/50. I would ring a couple of feed companies for their free advice.
I would also caution making a horse that main use is for leisure too fit, it may look well but it does have its down side, if for any reason you have to have an unplanned break it may be a devil when you restart
I good diet that supports general health will enable you to exercise the muscles to either make them larger or work for longer. Some people and horses have larger muslces to start off with , with horses the draft breeds were devloped for pulling heavy loads over a long periods were as racehorse have be developed for mainly sprinting, no matter how much food and protien and exercise you put in the racehorse will develope more muscle but it will not turn into a draft horse.It has to have the muscle groups and the confirmation in the right place first.
So thinking of it is like looking at a body builder, what muscle have I got, what do I want to atcheive, with a horse why and then what exercises do I need to do to get this.
Yes the right protein is important in a balanced diet but any excess is not stored and can put strain on the kidneys. This pony has the problem that it stores calories well so protein that has a fat source or high starch content will make it put on more fat weight unless the excercise given burns off the excess calories. I would go for a good quality balancer if its getting fat on it more work or cut the roughage with straw 50/50. I would ring a couple of feed companies for their free advice.
I would also caution making a horse that main use is for leisure too fit, it may look well but it does have its down side, if for any reason you have to have an unplanned break it may be a devil when you restart
AmyMay
Situation normal
No, it's pretty much scientific proof.
What a ridiculous statement.
My horses have all been leisure horses, and I've taken great pleasure in having them as fit as possible. Better for me and certainly better for them.