Feeding grass nuts

[mandyroberts]

My 27yr old WB was looking a bit poor in October so I put him on Spillers Senior Conditioning Mix which did the trick.
My vet checked his teeth 3 weeks ago (which have been a problem for a few years) and advised I should try to keep his weight on with soaked grass nuts and use the mix as an extra if the grass nuts were not sufficient.
I am only 3 weeks in to swapping mix with grass nuts and he still looks fine but I'm concerned that I can't swap any further as the volume of feed would be excessive.
He gets 3 feeds per day as he is turned out during the day and gets adlib hay at night but is only eating 16lbs of hay at he moment but this is increasing.
My question is how much water do you add to grass nuts (1 grass nuts to 3 water?) and how much volume would you give in one feed?
He is 16.3

Edit: you should not feed more volume than a rugby ball but I can't find the answer to that question!

 

[DabDab]

Not an answer to your question (sorry), but just as another thing you can do if his teeth are bad - give him a bucket of grass chaff to go with his hay. Then you could feed him the mix at dinner times maybe?

Why did the vet say use the grass nuts instead of the mix and not as well as?

 

[ycbm]

If he was looking fine on senior mix I think I would have wanted to stay on the senior mix. Is your vet concerned that you are wasting money by having to feed him more because he can't grind the mix, or that he will further damage his teeth? The latter would seem odd if he's grinding all that hay?

Grass nuts need as much water as they need, you have to experiment as it depends on make and even on batch. I think I would be trying them as a hay replacer overnight, maybe, if he is having trouble eating much hay.

Horses in the field eat what they eat, they don't know about rugby ball rules. If he'll eat a bigger quantity of soaked nuts, which is then just grass, I don't see an issue with it.

 

[TGM]

If you are feeding the grassnuts on their own, you don't have to worry about over-feeding volume. Just think of it as a haynet in mash form! It is cereal/starch containing feeds (such as mix) that you have to worry about, because starch has to be digested in the stomach. If the feed is too big then undigested starch gets pushed along to the hindgut and upsets the delicate balance there. But non starch containing fibre feeds like grassnuts (and obviously hay) don't have this worry. However, if you are feeding mix and grassnuts together then it is important to restrict the volume due to the starch in the mix. As ycbm says, it might be better to feed the soaked grassnuts in a tub overnight alongside his haynet to up his forage intake. Then if you are still feeding mix just give that at feedtimes.

 

[be positive]

The rugby ball rule applies to concentrates or straight cereal feeds to gain maximum benefit from the digestion but you can feed as much soaked forage, grassnuts come into that group, as you like as going as far as a full forage replacement if required, I would leave him overnight with as much as you think he can manage and increase it is he finishes it unless you feel he would be better eating more hay.

I make mine fairly dry so about 1 part to 2 water and add a small amount of linseed for the oil.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I would try to get him off the mix altogether and onto soaked grassnuts, mixed with dried grass chaff, to avoid choke. They can eat as much of that as hay if necessary, it is simply grass, which they have no trouble digesting. We have fed all our oldies on that combination for years and they have all done very well on it, if they have needed anything extra, a cup of linseed has done the trick.

 

[mandyroberts]

Not an answer to your question (sorry), but just as another thing you can do if his teeth are bad - give him a bucket of grass chaff to go with his hay. Then you could feed him the mix at dinner times maybe?

Why did the vet say use the grass nuts instead of the mix and not as well as?

Sorry I was a bit misleading.
As he has dental issues, the objective is to feed the maximum high fibre feed and then top up with mix if he can't eat enough hay/grass nuts.
The mix is also tougher on his teeth

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

I used to put grass nuts, beetpulp and linseed all soaked in a big trug and leave over night to be picked away at. Helped put weight on my oldie last year.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Just with reference to him finding the mix difficult to chew, you could substitute cubes for the mix and soak them. I used soaked D&H 16+ cubes succesfully on a 40+ year old poor doer pony with very few teeth. Fed him up to 5 x daily. The 16+ was available in both mix and cube versions.

 

[mandyroberts]

Thank you all for your replies, I had wondered why if grass nuts are 'just grass' why I had to be careful. My vet seemed to imply I could feed large quantities of soaked grass nuts and it was after he had gone I had wondered about the 'rugby ball volume'.
His teeth are getting down to the enamel, hence the need to preserve them but he does eat any feed put in front of him and doesn't quid (he had a trip to the RVC about 3 years ago to fix a problem tooth). So no apparent problem chewing at the moment.
He is eating more hay now, probably as the grass is reducing, but mid winter he would normally eat about 30lbs of hay a day plus a small amount of hard feed. That's a lot of hay t o chew!
If I give him a large tub of soaked grass nuts over night I think he will demolish the whole lot pretty quickly so adding some chaff may be the answer.
He is looking remarkably well on a much reduced amount of mix, so my current plan is to let him eat as much hay as he will, up to say 25lbs, keep the hard feeds small and feed grass nuts as required to maintain the weight. If I can remove the mix entirely I will but Spillers have a new veteran mix which is higher in fibre than the one I have been using, although slightly lower DE/kg.
He is retired so doesn't need energy food to pep him up!
And I will add Thunderbrook balancer as the mix reduces to ensure he gets his vitamins etc, although I do feed less than they advise.
I will look into the linseed as so many of you have suggested, it was popular when I was young but I haven't fed it for years and can't remember what 'good stuff' it contains.

 

[Leo Walker]

I'd be giving him one or two big tub trugs filled with soaked grass nuts and grass chaff, with some linseed, and dropping the mix all together. If he doesnt hold condition then rice bran oil products can be added as a top up. Thunderbrooks base mix isnt great, its an expensive way to feed linseed and rice bran oil and not a lot else so I'd drop that as well.

 

[southerncomfort]

My dentally challenged oldie has a trug full of sloppy grass nuts plus veteran vitality, hi fi senior and oil twice a day on 24/7 grazing.

 

[mandyroberts]

I'd be giving him one or two big tub trugs filled with soaked grass nuts and grass chaff, with some linseed, and dropping the mix all together. If he doesnt hold condition then rice bran oil products can be added as a top up. Thunderbrooks base mix isnt great, its an expensive way to feed linseed and rice bran oil and not a lot else so I'd drop that as well.

Leo - the Thunderbrook base mix is to supplement grass mix and hay, not for weight gain

 

[mandyroberts]

Could those of you who feed big tub trugs etc of grass nuts give me some idea of how much dry you are feeding per/bucket and how many per day? Either in kilos or stubbs scoops? Thanks

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

In a big 25/30l bucket I was putting 1 round scoop of beetpulp and one of grass nuts and 4cups of linseed when soaked this made up enough mash for me to give three smaller trugs alongside his feed and hay.

Another thought you can also soak Halley’s Blox. One blox makes a full bucket of damp grass/alfalfa/fibre

 

[JillA]

You don't have to soak grass nuts, they don't swell (I have checked by trying some) but if you feed them dry, like any pelleted food, mix them with plain grass chop to prevent choke

 

[Leo Walker]

Leo - the Thunderbrook base mix is to supplement grass mix and hay, not for weight gain

I know, but it doesnt really do that. The ingredients are predominantly linseed and a bit of rice bran oil and its a very expensive way to feed it. you are much better off adding linseed to the grass nuts yourself.

 

[Leo Walker]

You don't have to soak grass nuts, they don't swell (I have checked by trying some) but if you feed them dry, like any pelleted food, mix them with plain grass chop to prevent choke

The ones I've used have all swollen up and at least one type has come with a warning on the bag that they must be soaked.

I was feeding about 4 dry scoops a day for weight gain.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

You don't have to soak grass nuts, they don't swell (I have checked by trying some) but if you feed them dry, like any pelleted food, mix them with plain grass chop to prevent choke

Two different types that I have regularly bought have more than tripled in size when soaked so I wouldn’t advise people not to soak them if feeding in bulk. Same with alfalfa nuts

Have you ever soaked a mix? Try it some time, it does swell up quite a lot. I pretty much soak everything now after seeing how some dry feeds swell up. Including pelleted balancer.

Also the horse in question has dental issues to everything should be soaked to help prevent choke and for ease of digestion.

 

[JillA]

The ones I've used have all swollen up and at least one type has come with a warning on the bag that they must be soaked.

I was feeding about 4 dry scoops a day for weight gain.

If they swell up then there is more in them than grass, surely? Compacted and pelleted grass is...........compacted and pelleted dried grass. If they say on the bag they need soaking then check for ingredients? I've fed them unsoaked (in with other items like soaked beet pulp) and/or chop for years and only ever had choke when someone fed them on their own

 

[supsup]

Any dried fibre will swell up if you add water, no matter whether that's grass, alfalfa, beet or hay. I think what makes a difference in terms of how much/how quickly the water is sucked up is how much the fibre is broken down (how finely milled) to let the water in. Doesn't mean you can't feed it dry. I have also fed grass, alfalfa and "high fibre" pellets dry, as well as some beet-based feeds, and never had a problem. So long as the horse chews, they produce quite a bit of saliva in the process.
It's different of course if your horse can't or won't chew the pellets and tries to swallow them hole. But I'd feel free to experiment with the amount of water that suits you and your horse to get a consistency he can deal with and likes. The advantage of feeding dry or with less water is that the feed you give is more calorie-dense, and you're not filling your horse up with water.

 

[mandyroberts]

I know, but it doesnt really do that. The ingredients are predominantly linseed and a bit of rice bran oil and its a very expensive way to feed it. you are much better off adding linseed to the grass nuts yourself.

Agree if the aim was to feed linseed but what about the other 'stuff'? Eg zinc, magnesium,copper etc?
What's the best make of linseed? I haven't fed it before?

 

[Hollychops]

I feed well soaked grass nuts and a little sugar beet to our 2 oldies (38 and 26) and hay only. They have 1/2 a scoop twice daily and as much hay as they want. the older has no bottom teeth but manages the hay fine. If they look like they are losing weight i will be upping the grass nuts (i weigh weekly).

the grass nuts i soak as they both find them easier and the younger of the 2 is a pig and has had choke before when i didnt damp her dinner (just a balancer).

They both look good, have plenty of energy and the vet thinks the eldest will keep going for a few years yet.

 

[Bellaboo18]

Agree if the aim was to feed linseed but what about the other 'stuff'? Eg zinc, magnesium,copper etc?
What's the best make of linseed? I haven't fed it before?

Charnwood micronised linseed-amazing stuff!

 

[Polos Mum]

Could those of you who feed big tub trugs etc of grass nuts give me some idea of how much dry you are feeding per/bucket and how many per day? Either in kilos or stubbs scoops? Thanks

I had a 14hh elderly with no teeth - he was having 2- 3 stubbs scoops (of dry nuts) with a whole bucket of water - in a v large tub, he had that three times a day to keep him going. He could eat no hay at all so that was all of his forage in the winter.

My current 29 y/o 7hh is having 1 full stubbs scoop of dry nuts soaked in 3/4 times that volume three times a day. I like him to still have some left in the morning - just like I think the big boys should have some hay left in the morning.

 

[AdorableAlice]

I feed grass nuts and find that one stubbs scoop needs 2 scoops water to produce a crumble texture. Surely if grass has been dried and pelleted it would swell when rehydrated, whether that is in a bucket with added water or in the gut. Dentally challenged or not I wouldn't risk feeding them unsoaked. I add a little soaked Copra for a weight retain on my golden oldie. He also has linseed and VV.

 

[hopscotch bandit]

Have you ever soaked a mix? Try it some time, it does swell up quite a lot. I pretty much soak everything now after seeing how some dry feeds swell up. Including pelleted balancer..

Agree with this, my D&H Leisure Mix seems to really swell up when I mix with boiling water. I also mix it with speedibeet.

 

[Leo Walker]

Agree if the aim was to feed linseed but what about the other 'stuff'? Eg zinc, magnesium,copper etc?
What's the best make of linseed? I haven't fed it before?

There isnt a whole lot of other stuff though, thats my issue with it. You can get a mineral balancer from progressive earth for £10 that provides more than that and will cover the basics better. A huge sack of linseed is about £20 and will last months. Theres no issue feeding the thunderbrooks stuff, but just dont be mislead. Its not a lot for a fair bit of money. Theres better and cheaper ways to feed that. Entirely down to personal preference though