Feeding horse that has tied up/possible PSSM

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Christmas Crumpet

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I'm posting this in here as had no replies in Horsecare & Feeding and was hoping for some answers!!

So...
I've sent off a hair sample for analysis for pssm1 after my horse tied up last week. The more I read up about the symptoms, the more I think he probably does have one form or another. My main concern is to avoid him tying up again. He has always had hard, tight bum muscles, some days he feels a bit strange when I first get on but walks it off, he is a serious good doer, he is a coloured cob, he stands a bit oddly when resting, laid back placid sort... I could go on but I really wouldn't be surprised if he tests positive for one or other type. Obviously I know you can only know about type 2 with a biopsy but he sort of fits type 1.

The things that "may" have prompted this episode of tying up are: being in the yard for 6 days after he cut himself although still exercised every day (it is an open concrete yard and his stable door is always open so he can walk about), turned out in a field which hadn't been grazed since August (I thought the grass wouldn't have much goodness in it at this time of year but having looked at our lawn, its still growing so that's totally my stupidity), I rode him without an exercise sheet on a wet and windy day, I probably didn't cut his food down enough when he was in (hi fibre nuts and unmolassed chaff with linseed) and he did a few days off when the weather was grim. He also had a flu jab.

I've put him onto alpha a oil and speedibeet along with a larger dose of salt and equimins vit e oil (only started that today). I have some copra to try but I actually wanted to wait until he is back in work before I actually feed him much more. If he's just out in the field during the day, I can't see he needs extra calories but correct me if I'm wrong. I have also ordered some magnesium from progressive earth so will add some of that when it arrives. He's out for 10 hours a day on crap grazing, ad lib steamed hay at night - am happy to soak if needs be but thought we'd see how we get on with the hard food tweaked first. As suggested by Ffion Winnie, I've removed the linseed just in case.

I am hand walking him for about 15 mins twice a day and will not ride until the bloods have come back ok - hopefully they will be far improved on Thursday when the next lot are taken.

We've now got sheep grazing in the fields too - we've only got 2 acres but its good grass so sheep are here for the long haul to graze it. Unfortunately it is old dairy grass and does grow very quickly although we never fertilise it etc - it just gets harrowed and rolled and then topped if getting too long in the summer.

For a good doer which he is, I can try Al-car or see how he is on added oil (obviously though being a good doer, I don't want him to get too fat so added oil may not be the way forwards). Which oil is best and do they have to have it even if not doing any work? Can I turn him away for a holiday once the hunting season stops? I want to take his shoes off for the benefit of his feet. I am happy to hand walk him every day but does he have to be ridden if he is having a holiday and does he need to be kept in full work all year round?

I'm sure I have loads of other questions but if anyone can shed further light on what I should or shouldn't be doing, I would be grateful!!

Thank you in anticipation.
 
http://www.globalfitnessuk.com/


He's bang on for EPSM.

I have two with it and both of them respond absolutely brilliantly to alcar. I can treat both of them as completely normal horses when I give them 12g a day in one low sugar feed. I buy it from these people in bulk.

You need to email them, their shop isn't complete yet. You need acetyl L carnetine NOT I carnetine

If it works, you will begin to feel a release in the bum muscles after a week, and after six weeks you will be able to slap his bum and see all the muscles ripple like chucking a pebble into a pond.

You will also get a considerable increase in energy and stamina, and with the spring grass coming through, you may find you have much more horse to ride!
 
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LiffWee93 said:
sorry to hijack -- ycbm, how big are your horses? i may do a short trial of alcar to see if it helps -- my mare is 13hh, would 12g be too much?
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550kg and 600kg approx. Dr Kellon recommends 10 grams but I reckoned mine are bigger than most US horse that have it. I may be wrong about that, but it seems to be working! Yours I would give a10ml standard scoop. If you don't have one PM me your address, I've got dozens!!
 
just trying to help her lots :) so you reckon a week will be enough to see if theres improvement? would you try alcar over a vitamin e / selenium supplement? shes on electrolytes and a full spec vit and min supplement, on a low sugar and starch diet xx
 
I use vitamin e and selenium as well. My first one is better on that but by no means right. He seemed a lot better on oil, but the difference when I put him on alcar was very marked. Much easier to feed too.

The second one was solid on the bum when I started the alcar. At a week, I could feel some give and every week there was more. Now, if I poke any part of his big bum muscles, the rest ripple too.

One I ride two days in three, but only because his stifles lock. The other, I pick up and put down as I choose. You really wouldn't know they weren't normal.

I need to supplement selenium because my land is short in it. But I'm very unconvinced that they need the vitamin E, and when I'm half way through my last lot, I'm going to try them without it.


Check your supplement for iron and manganese, they really are a problem with horses with any sort of sugar problem. They mess with insulin. I would recommend a supplement high in copper, zinc and magnesium, as used by barefoot peeps.
 
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The racehorses feed changes to a higher fibre feed instead of a protein based feed. They still get their 6-8 week summer holiday turned away at grass 24/7.

One mare who was very bad for tying up had her feed changed to (on recommendation from Bailey's) 2 cups of power and performance balancer, 1 cup of outshine, a scoop of Alfa A and half a scoop of speedibeat 3x a day with ad-lib Haylage. She was fed at 7.30am, 1pm and 3pm and then turned out all night. She would never be ridden before 11am and would spend 1/2hour on the walker before being ridden and at least 1/2-3/4 hour after no matter what work she did. She also went on the walker for 1/2hour again at 2pm. She was just a big, gangly, weak 4yo. She has been turned away for the last 6 weeks and has just come back into work.

The other thing that we do is we give them Dantrim pills after they tie up. 2 days after they get 10 pills for 2 days, 8 for 2 days, 6 for 2 days then 4 for 5 days. After that they get 8-10 pills just on a work day. They can not race on them as they have a withdrawal period but for hunting you have no such restrictions. It might be worth asking your Vet about them.

All of the horses get electrolytes on work days.

I hope the bloods come back much improved next time round.
 
well ill see how she is on vit e and selenium. been doing research and acetyl-l-cartinine is produced with a combo of methionine and lysine. Both of which are in the vit e/selenium supplement ive ordered and her everyday supplement :) plenty of other minerals in her supplement too, and shes 10000000 x better on this everyday supp than without, after trying her on a different one and her getting tight again! thankyou for all of your advice, and for such a descriptive way of telling improvement :) xx
 
Just beware You can overdose vit E and selenium so be careful. Vit E is fat soluble so stored by the body . Our pony was diagnosed with EPSM in 2012 after getting a virus at pony club camp. Muscle biopsy confirmed it and his is not the hereditary type vets think the virus damaged his muscles but he did not tie up until it got extreme. I may have remembered wrongly but I think the hair test only picks up the hereditary type. Tried everything but he never came back to the level he was competing at. With him I think it was almost a mental thing, he had attacks when jumping white jumps and jumping out of water and has not been happy to jump either since. I did have his bloods done regularly but haven't for a while now. He still tenses for about 2 minutes when you get on. He did really well on Saracens Releve and ERS pellets (refused to eat Alfalfa oil) now on calm and condition as he had choke at Christmas and I am a bit paranoid. He had Dantrim as well when he did anything. Blood tests will confirm the levels, doesn't generally cost much. His were quite high and never really went down. Don't feed haylege either as sugar is too high. The Alcatel had no effect at all. Good luck I hope it turns out to be not this.
 
Both types are hereditary, they just don't know the gene markers for the draft one yet and they think there may be more than one variant.

EPSM is an incorrect storage of polysaccharides in the muscles. I have never heard of it being triggered by a virus. You can overdose selenium, and it's very dangerous, but massive doses of vitamin e are recommended for EPSM horses, 12,000 iu or even higher.

There is nothing wrong with feeding haylage, I feed it add lib. Sugar content will depend on the grass it is made from. I feed a timothy mix.

Liff-wee, I feed pure alcar, nothing else in it.
 
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I know exactly what it is, thankyou. Believe me lots of vet tests and a year of treatments. including Referal to Cambridge I know what he has and why he got it. Read every article going and had conversations with lots of vets. Eventually retired him from competition. Eventual thought was that as he 'kept going' with the virus it damaged the muscles. Used his entire insurance on trying to resolve it and didn't. Maybe we were just unlucky. Right as rain before he got the virus it and definitely not afterwards. Blood tests then showed dangerously high levels and didn't before. I'm not asking for comment merely trying to point out that vitamin E and selenium is dangerous in large amounts. Like everyone else I tried every supplement I could and if it works for you good. Main thing is high oil, low starch and low sugar though.
 
Domirati said:
I know exactly what it is, thankyou. Believe me lots of vet tests and a year of treatments. including Referal to Cambridge I know what he has and why he got it. Read every article going and had conversations with lots of vets. Eventually retired him from competition. Eventual thought was that as he 'kept going' with the virus it damaged the muscles. Used his entire insurance on trying to resolve it and didn't. Maybe we were just unlucky. Right as rain before he got the virus it and definitely not afterwards. Blood tests then showed dangerously high levels and didn't before. I'm not asking for comment merely trying to point out that vitamin E and selenium is dangerous in large amounts. Like everyone else I tried every supplement I could and if it works for you good. Main thing is high oil, low starch and low sugar though.
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Vitamin E isn't dangerous in large amounts, it is positively recommended for EPSM horses.
 
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Domirati said:
I know exactly what it is, thankyou. Believe me lots of vet tests and a year of treatments. including Referal to Cambridge I know what he has and why he got it. Read every article going and had conversations with lots of vets. Eventually retired him from competition. Eventual thought was that as he 'kept going' with the virus it damaged the muscles. Used his entire insurance on trying to resolve it and didn't. Maybe we were just unlucky. Right as rain before he got the virus it and definitely not afterwards. Blood tests then showed dangerously high levels and didn't before. I'm not asking for comment merely trying to point out that vitamin E and selenium is dangerous in large amounts. Like everyone else I tried every supplement I could and if it works for you good. Main thing is high oil, low starch and low sugar though.
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If your horse has PSSM it has a genetic glycogen storage disorder. The stress of the virus may have set the horse off symptomatically, as stress is a large factor in the disorder. However, it was always there, and always will be.
 
Domirati said:
. I'm not asking for comment merely trying to point out that vitamin E and selenium is dangerous in large amounts. .
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what evidence is your comment based on? Overdosing on Se is certainly dangerous however high doses of vit E is recommended for PSSM.

Shortage of vit E is far more dangerous as in vitamin e deficiency myopathy. High levels of natural vit E oil have been the key for my lad. I started to get results in days.

Alcar produces interesting results in some horses behaviour. I have one probable PSSM one where it hasn't affected his behaviour but is needed to provide energy. He is a significantly better on alcar (a 10ml scoop per day) 550kg

I tried it on a PPID horse. Whilst is certainly enhanced his performance he was totally impossible to both lead and ride.
 
Hello OP. Google Saracens and sign up for the newsletter. There is a really interesting article/pdf in this weeks all around feeding horses with metabolic diseases. Might well be helpful
 
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