Feeding magnesium to the overweight horse

I had my grazing analysed (horses live out 24/7) & it is very deficient in magnesium (it's generally crap overall!). So i feed various balanced minerals. My sister accidently overdosed one of the ponies on the mag ox - until i realised, i honestly thought somebody had been in & sedated her! The vet said it was fine though - mag ox is a 'safe' mineral to overdose & the body just excretes the excess (sloppy poo & wee).
 
Yes, yes, lovely. But which particular metabolic pathway, enzyme or receptor cascade is magnesium a cofactor, or component of?

No cake without biochemistry.

Paula

It is quite complicated Paula and I would have to type a boring essay on endocrine regulation of calcium and phosphate in order to explain the metabolic effects of Mg++. I'd have to go into energy transfer pathways of Mg-adenosine triphosphate, creatinine phosphate and cofactors such as NAD and NADP and then explain how K+ also affects the whole thing. It's so damned boring.

In so far as it's action on insulin, both protein anabolism and the storage of glucose as glycogen require the concurrent cellular uptake of potassium, phosphate and magnesium. Insulin stimulates the translocation of all three minerals in into muscle cells, and of potassium and phosphate into the liver. Insulin is secreted in response to a carb intake, lowers serum potassium, phosphate and magnesium and is therefore a normal regulator of potassium balance. In insulin resistance, compounded by other factors such as the role of glucose in all of this, would cause life threatening metabolic imbalance. Since in modern human and grazers diets, are mostly poor in magnesium, supplementation of this mineral is required to improve uptake of all three minerals to have an effect on glucose. Yadda yadda...

It's role in chlorophyll is vital but it is not a major compound.

All farmers know they need to supplement Mg in cattle and sheep because the fertilisation of forage, depletes Mg. they could use a magnesium nitrate To replenish but it doesn't Do much good for grass growth really. So farmers use ammonium Sulphate, ammonium nitrate or urea. So, the argument that chlorophyll provides more than enough magnesium to grazers is sadly flawed. Plus, most people keep horses on fertilised soils so, even more reason to add minerals as a lick or feed. All minerals have a role to play which is why they are called essential!

Not that any of the above matters a lot in the great scheme of things. Yes, only 40% of dietary magnesium is absorbed, but you want to be absorbing 40% of a decent amount. If too little then the animal is still deficient. The only reason only half is absorbed is because the lumen can only absorb as food is passing through the intestine, and not all of it can be absorbed before it is passed out of the body. You can call it expensive pee, but if your pee didn't have any minerals in it, you'd be in trouble.

It's not all biochemistry, it is physiology too. Hope I have managed to send you all to sleep now :)
 
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It is quite complicated Paula and I would have to type a boring essay on endocrine regulation of calcium and phosphate in order to explain the metabolic effects of Mg++. I'd have to go into energy transfer pathways of Mg-adenosine triphosphate, creatinine phosphate and cofactors such as NAD and NADP and then explain how K+ also affects the whole thing. It's so damned boring.

In so far as it's action on insulin, both protein anabolism and the storage of glucose as glycogen require the concurrent cellular uptake of potassium, phosphate and magnesium. Insulin stimulates the translocation of all three minerals in into muscle cells, and of potassium and phosphate into the liver. Insulin is secreted in response to a carb intake, lowers serum potassium, phosphate and magnesium and is therefore a normal regulator of potassium balance. In insulin resistance, compounded by other factors such as the role of glucose in all of this, would cause life threatening metabolic imbalance. Since in modern human and grazers diets, are mostly poor in magnesium, supplementation of this mineral is required to improve uptake of all three minerals to have an effect on glucose. Yadda yadda...

It's role in chlorophyll is vital but it is not a major compound.

All farmers know they need to supplement Mg in cattle and sheep because the fertilisation of forage, depletes Mg. they could use a magnesium nitrate To replenish but it doesn't Do much good for grass growth really. So farmers use ammonium Sulphate, ammonium nitrate or urea. So, the argument that chlorophyll provides more than enough magnesium to grazers is sadly flawed. Plus, most people keep horses on fertilised soils so, even more reason to add minerals as a lick or feed. All minerals have a role to play which is why they are called essential!

Not that any of the above matters a lot in the great scheme of things. Yes, only 40% of dietary magnesium is absorbed, but you want to be absorbing 40% of a decent amount. If too little then the animal is still deficient. The only reason only half is absorbed is because the lumen can only absorb as food is passing through the intestine, and not all of it can be absorbed before it is passed out of the body.

It's not all biochemistry, it is physiology too. Hope I have managed to send you all to sleep now :)

Ok you can have cake and wine.
 
It is quite complicated Paula and I would have to type a boring essay on endocrine regulation of calcium and phosphate in order to explain the metabolic effects of Mg++. I'd have to go into energy transfer pathways of Mg-adenosine triphosphate, creatinine phosphate and cofactors such as NAD and NADP and then explain how K+ also affects the whole thing. It's so damned boring.

In so far as it's action on insulin, both protein anabolism and the storage of glucose as glycogen require the concurrent cellular uptake of potassium, phosphate and magnesium. Insulin stimulates the translocation of all three minerals in into muscle cells, and of potassium and phosphate into the liver. Insulin is secreted in response to a carb intake, lowers serum potassium, phosphate and magnesium and is therefore a normal regulator of potassium balance. In insulin resistance, compounded by other factors such as the role of glucose in all of this, would cause life threatening metabolic imbalance. Since in modern human and grazers diets, are mostly poor in magnesium, supplementation of this mineral is required to improve uptake of all three minerals to have an effect on glucose. Yadda yadda...

It's role in chlorophyll is vital but it is not a major compound.

All farmers know they need to supplement Mg in cattle and sheep because the fertilisation of forage, depletes Mg. they could use a magnesium nitrate To replenish but it doesn't Do much good for grass growth really. So farmers use ammonium Sulphate, ammonium nitrate or urea. So, the argument that chlorophyll provides more than enough magnesium to grazers is sadly flawed. Plus, most people keep horses on fertilised soils so, even more reason to add minerals as a lick or feed. All minerals have a role to play which is why they are called essential!

Not that any of the above matters a lot in the great scheme of things. Yes, only 40% of dietary magnesium is absorbed, but you want to be absorbing 40% of a decent amount. If too little then the animal is still deficient. The only reason only half is absorbed is because the lumen can only absorb as food is passing through the intestine, and not all of it can be absorbed before it is passed out of the body. You can call it expensive pee, but if your pee didn't have any minerals in it, you'd be in trouble.

It's not all biochemistry, it is physiology too. Hope I have managed to send you all to sleep now :)


I would have massively enjoyed it if this post had ended with the line 'stick that in your pipe and smoke it'! I do love it when someone 'calls someone out' expecting nobody to have an answer.....
 
It is quite complicated Paula and I would have to type a boring essay on endocrine regulation of calcium and phosphate in order to explain the metabolic effects of Mg++. I'd have to go into energy transfer pathways of Mg-adenosine triphosphate, creatinine phosphate and cofactors such as NAD and NADP and then explain how K+ also affects the whole thing. It's so damned boring.

In so far as it's action on insulin, both protein anabolism and the storage of glucose as glycogen require the concurrent cellular uptake of potassium, phosphate and magnesium. Insulin stimulates the translocation of all three minerals in into muscle cells, and of potassium and phosphate into the liver. Insulin is secreted in response to a carb intake, lowers serum potassium, phosphate and magnesium and is therefore a normal regulator of potassium balance. In insulin resistance, compounded by other factors such as the role of glucose in all of this, would cause life threatening metabolic imbalance. Since in modern human and grazers diets, are mostly poor in magnesium, supplementation of this mineral is required to improve uptake of all three minerals to have an effect on glucose. Yadda yadda...

It's role in chlorophyll is vital but it is not a major compound.

All farmers know they need to supplement Mg in cattle and sheep because the fertilisation of forage, depletes Mg. they could use a magnesium nitrate To replenish but it doesn't Do much good for grass growth really. So farmers use ammonium Sulphate, ammonium nitrate or urea. So, the argument that chlorophyll provides more than enough magnesium to grazers is sadly flawed. Plus, most people keep horses on fertilised soils so, even more reason to add minerals as a lick or feed. All minerals have a role to play which is why they are called essential!

Not that any of the above matters a lot in the great scheme of things. Yes, only 40% of dietary magnesium is absorbed, but you want to be absorbing 40% of a decent amount. If too little then the animal is still deficient. The only reason only half is absorbed is because the lumen can only absorb as food is passing through the intestine, and not all of it can be absorbed before it is passed out of the body. You can call it expensive pee, but if your pee didn't have any minerals in it, you'd be in trouble.

It's not all biochemistry, it is physiology too. Hope I have managed to send you all to sleep now :)

Love it!

And I would love it even more if I understood all of it! :D
 
It is quite complicated Paula and I would have to type a boring essay on endocrine regulation of calcium and phosphate in order to explain the metabolic effects of Mg++. I'd have to go into energy transfer pathways of Mg-adenosine triphosphate, creatinine phosphate and cofactors such as NAD and NADP and then explain how K+ also affects the whole thing. It's so damned boring.

In so far as it's action on insulin, both protein anabolism and the storage of glucose as glycogen require the concurrent cellular uptake of potassium, phosphate and magnesium. Insulin stimulates the translocation of all three minerals in into muscle cells, and of potassium and phosphate into the liver. Insulin is secreted in response to a carb intake, lowers serum potassium, phosphate and magnesium and is therefore a normal regulator of potassium balance. In insulin resistance, compounded by other factors such as the role of glucose in all of this, would cause life threatening metabolic imbalance. Since in modern human and grazers diets, are mostly poor in magnesium, supplementation of this mineral is required to improve uptake of all three minerals to have an effect on glucose. Yadda yadda...

It's role in chlorophyll is vital but it is not a major compound.

All farmers know they need to supplement Mg in cattle and sheep because the fertilisation of forage, depletes Mg. they could use a magnesium nitrate To replenish but it doesn't Do much good for grass growth really. So farmers use ammonium Sulphate, ammonium nitrate or urea. So, the argument that chlorophyll provides more than enough magnesium to grazers is sadly flawed. Plus, most people keep horses on fertilised soils so, even more reason to add minerals as a lick or feed. All minerals have a role to play which is why they are called essential!

Not that any of the above matters a lot in the great scheme of things. Yes, only 40% of dietary magnesium is absorbed, but you want to be absorbing 40% of a decent amount. If too little then the animal is still deficient. The only reason only half is absorbed is because the lumen can only absorb as food is passing through the intestine, and not all of it can be absorbed before it is passed out of the body. You can call it expensive pee, but if your pee didn't have any minerals in it, you'd be in trouble.

It's not all biochemistry, it is physiology too. Hope I have managed to send you all to sleep now :)

Hahaha brilliant answer....thank you! Now to get fat boy to eat it...he hates the taste, only thing apart from bute I struggle to get in him, if I could sprinkle it over the whole field he would not be such a fat boy!
 
Hahaha brilliant answer....thank you! Now to get fat boy to eat it...he hates the taste, only thing apart from bute I struggle to get in him, if I could sprinkle it over the whole field he would not be such a fat boy!

Great plan we could get it dusted on the fields from planes like they fertilise in the US.
 
Oh and magnesium is a component of chlorophyll - so you'd be pretty hard pressed to get a deficiency in a herbivore. In people the problem is usually caused by polyurea - diuretics or very uncontrolled diabetes (best treated by controlling the diabetes) or malabsorption in conditions such as crohns.

Paula

Um - I think it's a well known fact that grass can be deficient in magnesium. Staggers in cattle anyone? We feed it year round (as a lick) because our grass is deficient in magnesium. It's also beneficial in EMS, cushings, for growing decent hoof.....

Unfortunately just looking at small elements of biochemistry in isolation does not always provide an answer.
 
It is my understanding that they just pee the excess away so unless the horse had a condition where it was compromised in that area it should be ok , that's not for all supplements mind ,some selenium for instance can be fatal if over supplemented .

It is quite complicated Paula and I would have to type a boring essay on endocrine regulation of calcium and phosphate in order to explain the metabolic effects of Mg++. I'd have to go into energy transfer pathways of Mg-adenosine triphosphate, creatinine phosphate and cofactors such as NAD and NADP and then explain how K+ also affects the whole thing. It's so damned boring.

In so far as it's action on insulin, both protein anabolism and the storage of glucose as glycogen require the concurrent cellular uptake of potassium, phosphate and magnesium. Insulin stimulates the translocation of all three minerals in into muscle cells, and of potassium and phosphate into the liver. Insulin is secreted in response to a carb intake, lowers serum potassium, phosphate and magnesium and is therefore a normal regulator of potassium balance. In insulin resistance, compounded by other factors such as the role of glucose in all of this, would cause life threatening metabolic imbalance. Since in modern human and grazers diets, are mostly poor in magnesium, supplementation of this mineral is required to improve uptake of all three minerals to have an effect on glucose. Yadda yadda...

It's role in chlorophyll is vital but it is not a major compound.

All farmers know they need to supplement Mg in cattle and sheep because the fertilisation of forage, depletes Mg. they could use a magnesium nitrate To replenish but it doesn't Do much good for grass growth really. So farmers use ammonium Sulphate, ammonium nitrate or urea. So, the argument that chlorophyll provides more than enough magnesium to grazers is sadly flawed. Plus, most people keep horses on fertilised soils so, even more reason to add minerals as a lick or feed. All minerals have a role to play which is why they are called essential!

Not that any of the above matters a lot in the great scheme of things. Yes, only 40% of dietary magnesium is absorbed, but you want to be absorbing 40% of a decent amount. If too little then the animal is still deficient. The only reason only half is absorbed is because the lumen can only absorb as food is passing through the intestine, and not all of it can be absorbed before it is passed out of the body. You can call it expensive pee, but if your pee didn't have any minerals in it, you'd be in trouble.

It's not all biochemistry, it is physiology too. Hope I have managed to send you all to sleep now :)

Now I'm betting you know enough to know that you just strung a bunch of scientific sounding sentences together that make little sense. There is work being done on magnesium and it's role in insulin resistance, but this isn't it. Also it has minute relevance in comparison to loosing weight and exercising. Also original poster was talking about obesity, which does not always equate to insulin resistance.

This is your finest sentence:

"In insulin resistance, compounded by other factors such as the role of glucose in all of this, would cause life threatening metabolic imbalance." Huh? What is the name of this scary life threatening imbalance 'cause we need to get word out there ASAP to the many millions with IR - and what causes it again.

Seriously guys - if your pony is fat put him on a diet and get him moving.
 
Magnesium and the B-complex vitamins are energy nutrients: they activate enzymes that control digestion, absorption, and the utilization of proteins, fats, and carbohydrates. Lack of these necessary energy nutrients causes improper utilization of food, leading to such far-ranging symptoms as hypoglycemia, anxiety, and obesity.

Magnesium is also necessary in the chemical reaction that allows insulin to usher glucose into cells, where glucose is involved in making energy for the body. If there is not enough magnesium to do this job, both insulin and glucose become elevated. The excess glucose gets stored as fat and contributes to obesity. Having excess insulin can lead to diabetes.

Hope this helps :)
 
What are you on Paulag ? I answered a question asked by another poster what happens if you give to much magnesium and qualified to say that's not for all supplements there is nothing pseudo scientific in my post .
Of course a reducing diet is what fat horses need if you look back that is WHAT I SAID at the beginning of the thread but that was not the question I was answering with that post.
 
Magnesium and the B-complex vitamins are energy nutrients: they activate enzymes that control digestion, absorption, and the utilization of proteins, fats, and carbohydrates. Lack of these necessary energy nutrients causes improper utilization of food, leading to such far-ranging symptoms as hypoglycemia, anxiety, and obesity.

Magnesium is also necessary in the chemical reaction that allows insulin to usher glucose into cells, where glucose is involved in making energy for the body. If there is not enough magnesium to do this job, both insulin and glucose become elevated. The excess glucose gets stored as fat and contributes to obesity. Having excess insulin can lead to diabetes.

Hope this helps :)

It would probably be more helpful to post the link to the site you cut and paste this from, then people can decide whether to trust the source. :)

This is it:
http://www.naturalnews.com/036049_magnesium_weight_loss_cure.html
 
Now I'm betting you know enough to know that you just strung a bunch of scientific sounding sentences together that make little sense. There is work being done on magnesium and it's role in insulin resistance, but this isn't it. Also it has minute relevance in comparison to loosing weight and exercising. Also original poster was talking about obesity, which does not always equate to insulin resistance.

This is your finest sentence:

"In insulin resistance, compounded by other factors such as the role of glucose in all of this, would cause life threatening metabolic imbalance." Huh? What is the name of this scary life threatening imbalance 'cause we need to get word out there ASAP to the many millions with IR - and what causes it again.

Seriously guys - if your pony is fat put him on a diet and get him moving.

Why do you have such a problem with this? No one is saying that feeding magnesium is an alternative to controlled diet and exercise, just discussing its use alongside these things. You asked for a more scientific explanation and you got it but don't accept it. If you don't agree with the use of it don't use it, simple. I feel that it helps so I feed it, end of.
 
Are you giving any other supplements ?
If you are check it's not in them (hoof supplements often contain a fair bit ) it not worth wasting your money.
 
I've fed magnesium oxide to mine for the last couple of years but the 13 yr old cob is just recovering from his first ever bout of laminitis.
So while it may help, no supplement is better than old fashioned exercise and diet sadly.
 
Oh and magnesium is a component of chlorophyll - so you'd be pretty hard pressed to get a deficiency in a herbivore. In people the problem is usually caused by polyurea - diuretics or very uncontrolled diabetes (best treated by controlling the diabetes) or malabsorption in conditions such as crohns.

Paula

The deficiency in grass is during fast growth - eg spring and autumn flush - the grass contains far more water than minerals so the horse eating his normal quantity of grass will not recive sufficient Magnesium - one of the reasons some horses go silly in spring.
 
I get my Magnesium blocks from the farming stores - they are usually quite large but will last for a good while and are reletively cheap.

The block has other base minerals in it too. Not only does it keep my lot sensible - one of the side effects of not enough magnesium is spooky behaviour I now know that it will also help my Clydie keep her figure neat.
 
Now I'm betting you know enough to know that you just strung a bunch of scientific sounding sentences together that make little sense. There is work being done on magnesium and it's role in insulin resistance, but this isn't it. Also it has minute relevance in comparison to loosing weight and exercising. Also original poster was talking about obesity, which does not always equate to insulin resistance.

This is your finest sentence:

"In insulin resistance, compounded by other factors such as the role of glucose in all of this, would cause life threatening metabolic imbalance." Huh? What is the name of this scary life threatening imbalance 'cause we need to get word out there ASAP to the many millions with IR - and what causes it again.

Seriously guys - if your pony is fat put him on a diet and get him moving.

My finest sentence. Exactly. Diabetes is life threatening. I'd really like it if you could help me get the word out because I don't think anyone knows anything about diabetes in the world and it could be what is killing so many people!!!
 
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