Feeding soaked fibre to a horse when hay cannot be given anymore

[Eaglestone]

Motor is now nearly 33 and due to his teeth being of no use any longer, I will have to take away his hay net, as he has started to choke on it

I currently feed 3 meals of soaked Splillers High Fibre Nuts and Happy Hoof, that currently keep him in good condition - all in all about 11lbs a day.

I have spoken to Spillers and they have been very heplful and say that I can increase his fibre intake, but not too much.

My question for you guys on here, is how do you spread the feeds, so he does not get very depressed and bored, due to having no haynet to play with?

His current meals are Breakfast at 7.15am, Lunch at 1pm and Tea at 5.30pm .... so I need to slow him down during the day and find a way of keeping him busy with it at night, if you see what I mean? He usually eats his meals over a period of about an hour and then quite happily munches on the hay and splits it out ... he has done this for many years now!

Any ideas/thoughts/suggestions from those of you with experience with an older, none grass eating, horse please?

Many thanks.

 

[TGM]

What is the ration of High Fibre Nuts to Happy Hoof? Short chop feeds such as Happy Hoof tend to take longer to eat than mash type food, so the more Happy Hoof (or similar short chop) you feed, the longer it takes to eat. I had an elderly laminitic pony on Happy Hoof as a hay replacer when her teeth got really bad and found it lasted her much longer than soaked cubes.

 

[be positive]

Why do they say you should not increase his fibre intake that seems an odd response, surely they should ideally have access pretty much 24/7 and be able to pick at something when they want, happy hoof has molasses in it so if you want to increase the chop try something unmolassed or a bowl of fast fibre to nibble on once he has finished his main meal, I think I would be feeding the cubes separately from the chop and giving a huge trug of chop that really will last for hours that is not so tempting that he is inclined to eat constantly.

Very well soaked grass nuts would be something to consider, if it was almost soup like it would be hard to get through too quickly but still something to nibble on as and when, this worked well for one of mine, he would just slurp at it for a while going back now and again 1/2 scoop in 1/2 a bucket of water lasted him overnight, good for increasing the fluid intake also.

 

[Eaglestone]

Hi TGM
Thanks for your reply which is greatly appreciated.
He gets 8 lbs of HFNs and 3 lbs of HH ... not so keen on the HH !
I presume l can soak more HH and put in different bowls around his FS... what did you used to do?
Cx

 

[TGM]

I used to give a big tub of dry Happy Hoof separately overnight as a replacement for a haynet. She seemed to be able to cope with the HH dry and it stayed appetising overnight - she was not so keen when it was wet and would then leave some. I found that the HH was best for her as it was quite a fine texture - a lot of the other short chop feeds were too coarse for her. A lot depends on how bad the teeth are - there is a fine line between ensuring they get enough food, avoiding choke and keeping them occupied. Some horses have teeth so bad they can only eat mash, but if you have only just started abandoning hay feeding, then he may be fine with unsoaked short chop which will take him longer to eat. (He may seem like he doesn't like the HH, but it could be just that he is taking longer to eat it because he has to chew a bit).

 

[NellRosk]

Would Alfa A Oil be too coarse for him? Because that would be higher calorie and he could have a big bucket to nibble on. I'd be feeding him speedi beet too or alfabeet, they're both high fibre and tasty

 

[lurcherlu]

I would use fast fibre if poss, and if Alfa a oil isn't too coarse try that, or mollichaff veteran is amazing, kept weight on an old boy, a trug of it at a time worked wonders

 

[putasocinit]

i wouldnt soak the grass nuts to be like soup, could give him the shits, not what an old horse wants, i would make it up normally but agree feed the mix or pellets seperately so it doesnt make the chaff so appetising that he needs to eat it in one go. also get a big trug and just fill it up, i think it is okay to increase the chaff if you are feeding the hi fi lites and the originals as they have nothing added but the happy hoof for example has vits and mins added so you could be overloading his system if you fed him more than the recommended amount.

 

[TGM]

Putasocinit makes a good point about the suitability of checking whether feeds are suitable to be fed in bulk as total or partial hay replacers - it is always wise to check with the manufacturers before taking this route. I was told by Spillers that Happy Hoof was fine to use as a hay replacer (but this was nearly 10 years ago). I have heard that there are problems with the levels of selenium in Fast Fibre and that feeding as a total hay replacer could provide too much selenium in the diet - have only heard this second hand though, so best to check directly with Allen & Page. You have to be careful with alfalfa based products as fed in large quantities can cause problems such as excessive urination.

 

[Polos Mum]

Mine with absolutely no teeth other then a few at the front has got on really well this year with soaked grass nuts. The smell really nice and he's still polishing them off like they are mars bars! They aren't too expensive (under £7 a sack) so you can feed plenty. They are just grass - so as close to a natural diet as you can get.

By this time last year I was days away from having him PTS as he looked so poor and nothing I was giving him was helping, now he's borderline fat!

I am feeding huge tubs of it soaked (it takes up around 4 times it;s own volume in water without making it even wet - I soak for about 12 hours and it turns into a sort of sawdust consistency after this time) - I wouldn't feed unsoaked as it takes up soooo much water I'd worry about colic feeding dry.
I feed mine last thing at 10pm ish and again at 7am ish - on occasion he has some left in the morning. He started eating it all in one go, but now eats some, stops, and comes back to it over time.

I'd give it a go and see how he takes to it.

 

[TGM]

Whilst grass nuts can be useful for some veterans, I think the problem with grass nuts in this particular case is that:

- the horse is laminitic/Cushings so most grass nuts will be too high in sugar
- horse is maintaining weight on current diet so doesn't need higher calorie feeds
- horse is finishing feed too quickly so needs lower calorie feeds which will take longer to eat

 

[Eaglestone]

Thank you all for you help and advice which is really great that you have taken so much time to respond to my plight ....
I cannot respond to everyone individually, otherwise I will be here all night :O
As TGM says he is a Cushings/Laminitic and I have to be careful with grass nuts, as he has not been allowed grass much in over 8 years ...
I spoke to Spillers, as all his feeds are currently made by them. He is maintaining a good weight on the current volume of food and the hay he is munching through is spat out and left in a pile, which looks like a pile of droppings, so I don't think he has ever been getting any goodness from it. All he gets is the satisfaction of nibbling away at it.
I have given him a smaller soaked haynet tonight, but also given him another manger of very wet Happy Hoof, to see if he bothers to eat it (he has always been a very fussy horse!) ... I am fearful of the fact that he has episodes of choking on the hay, but I cannot just take it away and leave him with nothing.
I need to know that he has something at all times, otherwise he will get bored and depressed and his is such a happy little soul.

 

[ester]

fastfibre is certainly advertised as suitable as a partial or complete hay replacer.

not sure if the values help TGM?

Nutritional Additives (per kg):
Vitamins: E672 Vitamin A: 10k iu (as retinol acetate); E671 Vitamin D3: 1.5k iu (as cholecalciferol); E3a700 Vitamin E: 120mg (as all-rac-alpha-tocopheryl acetate)
Trace elements: 200mg Ferrous Sulphate Monohydrate (E1-Iron); 278mg Zinc Oxide (E6-Zinc); 160mg Manganous Oxide (E5-Manganese); 3.25mg Calcium Iodate Anhydrous (E2-Iodine); 1.76mg Sodium Selenite (E8-Selenium); 83mg Cupric Chelate of Glycine, Hydrate (E4-Copper)


I'm with TGM in that I wouldn't be soaking grass nuts for him.

eta a previous post re. the selenium

Please be SERIOUSLY careful about how much Fast Fibre you feed.

I have no idea why Allen & Page continue to market it as being suitable as a total hay replacer, when this is clearly not the case:

It contains 0.88mg/kg of selenium, so if fed as a total hay replacer, this would be 10kg for a 500kg horse, so a total of 8.8mg selenium in the diet per day. This is way above what NRC considers a safe upper limit (they say no more than 5mg a day under any circumstances).

If you are feeding 4kg of it, that's nearly 4mg of selenium from the Fast Fibre alone, and that's before you take in account whatever's in your hay/grass and before you take in account whatever's in the Pink Powder vits/mins that you are feeding.

Selenium toxicity is not somewhere that anyone would want to go.

Sarah

so if no more than 5mg a day = 5.68 kg of dry.

 

[Polos Mum]

Sorry - didn't spot the high lami risk.

I'm not an expert in choke but would he still be at risk if the hay was chopped short? You can chop it yourself quite sucessfully with a common garden shredder, if he's chewing it and spitting it out he's obviously keen to eat some and if he doesn't need any more food/ calories for his weight then from a different angle could you look into making hay safer for him.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Would he cope with a hay brick or similar. I think someone makes a fibre brick which is lower calorie as part straw chaff.

 

[thatsmygirl]

Personally if he was mine I would have his dinners as speedibeet, equimins advance complete as his vits/mins and micro linseed if he will eat that.
Could also try difference buckets of hay replacer in his stable and let him guide you to what he likes.
Speedibeet
Fast fibre
High fibre nuts ( like u are already)
Topspec fibre nuts ( my horses go mad for them and they smell a lot nicer than standard nuts, but can still soak them)
Happy hoof I'm not a fan off but if he eats it, let him carry on.
Can u soak dengie Alfa pellets?

 

[Eaglestone]

Once again thank you all for your help and advice, all of which I am taking on board, in the quest to find the best solution for Motor

Polos Mum - the problem is that his back teeth are like billiard balls and although he tries to chew the hay, he fails and out it comes, but now his technique is failing, due to further deterioration of his back teeth.

Pearlsasinger - my Vet suggested a Haybrick, so will look at those ... this may well be the solution, as he still has a fairly good set of front teeth, even though slightly Parrot Mouthed.
I recall giving him a 'lick' once, but failed to realise that as he never licks anything, as his tongue is short!! .... he chewed it to bits in an afternoon .... OMG what a mess!

thatsmygirl - I will look into all the products you mentioned - as long as they are ok for Laminitics, I will get some samples.

Thank you all again

 

[sarahann1]

Once again thank you all for your help and advice, all of which I am taking on board, in the quest to find the best solution for Motor

Polos Mum - the problem is that his back teeth are like billiard balls and although he tries to chew the hay, he fails and out it comes, but now his technique is failing, due to further deterioration of his back teeth.

Pearlsasinger - my Vet suggested a Haybrick, so will look at those ... this may well be the solution, as he still has a fairly good set of front teeth, even though slightly Parrot Mouthed.
I recall giving him a 'lick' once, but failed to realise that as he never licks anything, as his tongue is short!! .... he chewed it to bits in an afternoon .... OMG what a mess!

thatsmygirl - I will look into all the products you mentioned - as long as they are ok for Laminitics, I will get some samples.

Thank you all again

What about something like Dengies HiFi molasses free? http://www.dengie.com/horse-feeds/hi-fi/hi-fi-molasses-free/ It's got mint in which helps with tastiness

Or combining a small amount soaked grass nuts or sugarbeet through chaff rather than just water to make it more interesting?

 

[Eaglestone]

What about something like Dengies HiFi molasses free? http://www.dengie.com/horse-feeds/hi-fi/hi-fi-molasses-free/ It's got mint in which helps with tastiness

Or combining a small amount soaked grass nuts or sugarbeet through chaff rather than just water to make it more interesting?

Hiya thanks for your reply.

Do you know it that mix is ok for a horse prone to Laminitis?

Many thanks.

..... Just reading the link

 

[magicmoose]

I have been feeding Speedibeet and soaked Grass nuts, mixed with plain grass chop to my old horse as a hay replacer, which keeps him busy longer than a fine textured mash.

I have been impressed with Halleys Feeds as they are all unmollassed. I'm feeding Just Grass at the moment but will switch to one of the lower energy options in the summer. They have a full analysis of the sugar/starch content of their feeds on the website and "Ad Lib" looks like it could be a good option for you OP.

http://www.halleysfeeds.co.uk/

 

[Eaglestone]

Thank you Magicmoose .... I will have a look at the link ... not sure if Grass Nuts are ok for my boy though

 

[CBAnglo]

One of my TBs went completely off hay after he had two operations and was feeling very sorry for himself. So we fed hifi lite as a hay replacer and to keep it interesting put in black sunflower seeds (for feet) and other things like soaked fibre nuts and linseed. I just fed it in a huge trug and at first he gobbled it down like it was the biggest dinner in the world but afterwards realized that he was getting it anyway so slowed down and nibbled on it. We used to split it between a few trugs and that kept him gainfully employed for 8 hrs over night. He also was on box rest for 9 months so we were feeding to keep him calm.

 

[RhaLoulou]

My mare (only 28) has fast fibre with soaked alfalfa nuts and outshine, she is quite fussy and she has been eating this combination quite happily for some time now. It is also keeping weight on her nicely, she is still in light work. As well as breakfast and lunch She gets quite a big bowl of it on a night and eats it slowly. She has Cushings and her teeth are a bit dodgy but she is still eating hay and haylage.

 

[Eaglestone]

One of my TBs went completely off hay after he had two operations and was feeling very sorry for himself. So we fed hifi lite as a hay replacer and to keep it interesting put in black sunflower seeds (for feet) and other things like soaked fibre nuts and linseed. I just fed it in a huge trug and at first he gobbled it down like it was the biggest dinner in the world but afterwards realized that he was getting it anyway so slowed down and nibbled on it. We used to split it between a few trugs and that kept him gainfully employed for 8 hrs over night. He also was on box rest for 9 months so we were feeding to keep him calm.

Hi CBAnglo
Thanks for replying ..
When you say a 'Hay Replacer' what was it and did you mix the two and soak it?
Many thanks.

 

[Eaglestone]

My mare (only 28) has fast fibre with soaked alfalfa nuts and outshine, she is quite fussy and she has been eating this combination quite happily for some time now. It is also keeping weight on her nicely, she is still in light work. As well as breakfast and lunch She gets quite a big bowl of it on a night and eats it slowly. She has Cushings and her teeth are a bit dodgy but she is still eating hay and haylage.

Thank you RhaLoulou for your reply ...
Another Cushings horse, so I presume you have to watch what you feed her. What is 'outshine' and what sort of quantity did you give in a feed of that and alfalfa nuts?
Motor is 14.3 and about 600lb ....

 

[RhaLoulou]

Hi Eagelstone outshine is a Baileys supplement it has linseed in it and it helps to keep weight on my mare and she has a fantastic shine on her coat. She gets a cup of outshine a day, a Stubbs scoop of Alfalfa nuts (soaked) and a scoop and half of fast fibre (soaked) it makes quite a lot of feed when it is soaked so she gets it through the day. She is a 14.2 welsh d, the good thing about this feed is that she has eaten consistently (she is a fussy mare) albeit slowly! It does say on the bag that you can feed fast fibre as hay replacer although that would be expensive. I fed her dengie alfalfa based feeds for ages but she just seemed to be struggling with the short chop. Contrary to received wisdom my mare seems to manage better with long strands of hay or haylage and indeed straw sometimes than she does does with short chop that is often recommended. You have probably already know this but it is useful to contact feed companies. I called round all the feed companies before I got to this feed combination they are a great source of help and I have been impressed with how impartial the advice is that you from the nutritionists. Good luck!

 

[Eaglestone]

Hi Rhaloulou thank you for your answer and yes I will speak to other feed suppliers .... I have only spoken to Spillers and they were very helpful
Motor cannot chew much nowadays, apart from Carrots and Polos .... funny that
He is a 14.3 Welsh D x Hackney love the Welshies and I expect you do too
Many thanks.