Feeling guilty for not wanting to sell horse to loaner.

[SatsumaGirl]

Firstly, I will say outright, I do have too many horses... end of! Now that that's out of the way...

Anyway, one of them is on loan and has been for the past two years. The loaner is absolutely lovely and I couldn't ask for a nicer home. I trust her completely and she has done so much more with him than I have. So far, she has renewed the contract on a year by year basis (as a lot can happen in a year and I don't really want to state in a contract that she has him forever, purely because no one ever knows what the future holds). All that being said, I have also told her that I'm not going to turn round anytime soon and take him off her so she doesn't need to worry. I even said to her in the past that it might come to the point where she can keep him for the rest of his working life or until he needs to slow down to a gentler pace, where he'll ultimately be returned to me for his retirement (depending on my situation, of course).

She knows I have had certain experiences with a couple of horses I've sold in the past i.e. owners not being what they said they were/not giving them the nicest quality of life and me regretting the sale. I've also had a couple of horrible loan experiences (one whilst I was at uni, finding my horse had been loaned to someone else behind my back with comments left on Facebook such as "met X today, deal done, welcome to the family...". On top of that, it took me and my friend a year and a half to track down an old horse of ours, after he was sold on through home after home (about 8 in total over 18 months) and dealer after dealer, no one ever mentioning his issues.


I digress... I have always been honest with the loaner from day one. I love her to bits and she seems a lovely person but I don't want to ever sell my horse- not at the moment, anyway. My opinion may change as I get older but for the moment, that's how I feel, dead certain! It's not that I don't like her or don't trust her but I hate that you lose the security and future of that horse, once money has changed hands. Ok, so nothing is ever set in stone and it might come to the point where, for whatever reason (health, finances etc.) I may not be able to secure his future either but at least at the moment there's an element of control and responsibility.

I don't want to lose her as a loaner and her to become annoyed but I was honest from day one and I thought the situation seemed to suit us both fine.

She is now asking about buying him and when I said "at least you know I won't take him off you" she replied telling me it wasn't the same. I know it's not the same as owning and I know she loves him but so do I, even if I haven't seen him for a while!

My question is this, have any of you ever been in a similar situation and how do you keep a happy medium without offending or upsetting the person when you are fond of them and do respect them as a loaner?
Chances are she may have had enough at some point and want to give him back, rather than loaning forever and I realise that's a risk but I think I'm just feeling a bit down about it all. The last thing I want to do is hurt her feelings but equally, I don't want to feel bad for not wanting to sell my horse. If I wanted to sell, I would've done it years ago and taken the money, rather than essentially just giving someone my horse for nothing and waiting years to be paid... if you know what I mean.

I'm a very overly sensitive person (as this massive novel of a post has probably shown you) and I do tend to dwell on things. I am a worrier by nature!

Other people's stories/situations would really help.

Thanks!

 

[Bede]

Hi

I loaned one of mine to what I thought would be a long term loan home. All was going very well and several months into the loan the loaner asked if she could buy him.I said no; like you, if I had wanted to sell, I would have done that in the first place. He simply Was Not For Sale.
The loaner was a bit miffed, but I thought was basically OK with that. A few months later, when I thought all was still fine, she suddenly rang to say that she had bought something and would be returning mine. I have no idea how much wanting to own her own horse influenced her decision. He has since gone to another loan home which I am pretty certain will be forever; but if not then that's OK with me. He is not a horse I would ever sell, at all, ever and I will either find him another loan home if this one comes to an end or keep him here and enjoy him myself.

You know how you feel about your horse. If you don't want to sell him, don't! x

 

[Spilletta]

Hmm, bit tricky for you and not sure if this will help, but I'll try anyway.

Firstly, though, what would you do if the horse came back to you? If you already have too many will you feel bad if you don't do anything with him (although sure he won't mind as long as he's getting his food, water, etc!) Would you go through the process of finding another lovely, trustworthy person to loan?

I can probably say more from the other person's viewpoint because I have just bought a horse I've been dealing with/riding for last four years. I know she was (is) very special to the old owner and wasn't really for sale. I adore this horse but time had come for me to buy my own - can't explain why this happens but guess it's what's happened to your loaner. I know I eventually wanted my own but wanted to ensure finances were sorted. I started to look but couldn't see past this horse. Wasn't sure what to do but luckily owner knew how much the horse meant to me and trusts me to do best by her, which I will, and offered to sell her to me.

It is hard as it all comes down to trust, and you've had some bad experiences. At the end of the day, it's your decision so don't feel bad. If the loaner is as nice as she sounds, she'll understand how you feel, and what will be will be, eg, she may have to leave to follow a dream of ownership elsewhere.

Not sure if this waffle helps - but good luck.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I currently have one out on loan with pretty much the same agreement as you - there for as long as they ever want him, I am just a safe haven for him to come straight back to if they can no longer keep him.

I had the same agreement with my fell pony. 3 times over a year and a half the girl asked if she could buy him, all 3 times I declined because I never wanted to lose control of that final say of where he ended his days. I am so glad I didn't sell him to her as after a year and a half she decided that she could no longer afford to keep him as she had a boyfriend and was also spending more time with him. Fair does, she was 17 when she took him on which was also another reason why I wouldn't sell him to her. Yes I know she was young BUT he was going to a yard where I knew people and they would let me know if anything wasn't right. Apart from coming home with Lammi he had actually been well enough looked after and had been ridden every day up until the last month he was there - hence getting too fat!

At the end of the day it's your choice whether you want to sell or not.

 

[splashgirl45]

the danger is that your loaner may well do the same as bede's ....I know that when I lose my mare (23 and cushings) I will not be able to afford to buy another and will probably give up as I don't think I would be happy loaning ..I fully understand your loaner wanting to make the situation permanent as I would feel the same. could you extend the contract so she feels a little more settled? agree its a difficult situation as your loaner sounds very good for your horse...

 

[Spring Feather]

I loaned a fantastic event horse a very long time ago and after a year I asked to buy him. The owner said no; that she loved him being with me but she wasn't ready to sell him. I considered this long and hard and finally came to the conclusion that I did not want to be responsible for someone else's horse, particularly an eventing horse whereby I may have needed to make *that* decision myself. I contacted her and told her all of this; she asked to think about it, which was fine by me, and a few days later she changed her mind and said she would sell on a contract to me. We had a contract drawn up by a lawyer, whether it would have held up in court or not who knows, but anyway we both signed, the money was transferred and the horse belonged to me. I really did not want to go out and search for another horse as this one was perfect for me, however I would have if she hadn't changed her mind. I have seen the same here though, whereby I've loaned some of my horses to people, and as much as they love them it just isn't the same when they don't own them, and I do understand that which is why sometimes I will sell to a loaner with a rock solid contract (which *is* enforceable in my country). I believe you have to do what is right for you, the loan person but most importantly the horse.

 

[Overread]

If you're pretty firm that the current loaner is a solid, dependable and trustworthy person who will and can look after your horse in the best of care then you might consider that whilst you don't feel like selling your horse today; that you'd not be opposed to the sale at some point in the future.

That being the case you could change the terms of the loan so that each year part of the money from the loan payment acts like a deposit toward the fullpayment of the horse for sale. You would, of course, have to set a firm point in the future from which the contract will end - this could be based on the total pay (limiting how much can be paid in each instalment, but also fixing the amount so that it will be a fixed period of time); it could also be a fixed date, with any outstanding purchase amount due upon that date to complete the transaction.

This approach has good and bad sides. On the good side it means that you've not fully given up the loan and should something in the relationship change, you still have recourse to take your horse back and terminate the contract. It also means that you drag out the final sale time; this might help you as it gives you time to really think about it and to become more accustomed to the idea of a final sale; at the same time your loaner is feeling better with getting closer to owning each and every day.

Downside is really if you find that you ultimately don't want to sell at all. You could still build in a get-out clause into the agreement (likely full return of deposit) as a safety net for yourself.





In general I would echo the points made above; owning and loaning are two very different states. Even if your loaner is looking after, interacting and doing all that an owner would do with your horse for several years; even then they are still not the owner - the horse they are investing time, money and emotions into can still be taken away from them with little to no chance of them being able to challenge such an action.
It might well make them start to consider buying their own horse; it won't be the same horse, it won't be the horse they've come to love and care for; but its a horse they can own. A horse that can't be taken away from them.

In the end its your own choice on the matter, and its you who has to come to terms with that choice. Remember you could still go years in the current relationship with nothing changing save for a few more requests to sell.

 

[lastchancer]

I don't think you want to sell him do you? You have never said you would, is that correct?
I think your loaner sounds fab but does need to respect that you want to safeguard the horses future - hence the loan rather than sale. How would you feel if you sold and a few years later the buyers circumstances changed and she sold him on without your knowledge or was offered a really good price for him that you couldn't match? Money talks and a lot of times people will take the money despite previous agreements. I've sold a few and with hindsight wish I'd loaned them out instead. Don't sell if you really don't want to. Couldn't you agree a permanent loan with an agreement that he comes back to you if need be? Perhaps just visit a couple of times a year so contact is minimal.

 

[Sparkles]

A loan is just that. Don't feel bad about not wanting to sell your own horse

 

[Floofball]

This is a hard one and I can understand why your flustered. Would you be happy for him to be returned? If so, stick to your guns, he's your horse and you want to be in control. If the loaner really wants to be in control of their own horse they will return yours at the end of the loan agreement (with notice I assume) and buy their own. Maybe you could change the terms of the agreement to a long term loan with both sides having an agreed notice period to end the contract. Otherwise you could sell under contract to have first refusal to buy back if the buyer's circumstances change, although as stated before I'm not sure if this would stand up in court but, if the loanee is as nice as you describe maybe she would honour? You wouldn't have any say in the horses care but if things went wrong they should contact you first?
Tough one OP - hope you come to an agreement (or get horse back before the situation turns sour)

 

[Meowy Catkin]

A loan is just that. Don't feel bad about not wanting to sell your own horse

^This.

 

[Janovich]

I don't think you want to sell him do you? You have never said you would, is that correct?
I think your loaner sounds fab but does need to respect that you want to safeguard the horses future - hence the loan rather than sale. How would you feel if you sold and a few years later the buyers circumstances changed and she sold him on without your knowledge or was offered a really good price for him that you couldn't match? Money talks and a lot of times people will take the money despite previous agreements. I've sold a few and with hindsight wish I'd loaned them out instead. Don't sell if you really don't want to. Couldn't you agree a permanent loan with an agreement that he comes back to you if need be? Perhaps just visit a couple of times a year so contact is minimal.

Agree with the above and particularly approaching the loaner with a view to a 'Permanent' loan, contracted in for your horse to be returned to you if the need arises.

You must do what your heart tells is the right thing OP,...for you and your horse,...and it seems that keeping the loaning agreement running (and not selling) is the one you feel sits well in your own head. I too would ALWAYS want to be the 'safety net' for my horse if ever loaning was the way to go for me..

 

[MS123]

I completely understand your situation, as I've been in similar, but on the other side as a loaner. Had my mare since she was 4 (now 6 1/2), beautifully put together and a real eye turner, worth a fair amount of money. Owner was great, never interfered and she trusted me and rarely saw the horse (once in the two years I had her), so it often felt as if she was totally mine, but she wasn't, and that feeling never left. I produced her, competed her, and we started to move up the dressage levels. I asked to buy her, a few times, but owner refused and said she'd never sell her, and I sensed that she never would either. As bad as it sounds, I often got very frustrated at the fact she never would sell her to me - she could never give her the life I gave her, and I knew said horse was way too much for her and could never do the things we did together, or/and planned to do. That went round my head all the time, it never stopped.

I decided in the end that I wanted to explore life outside of horses, go travelling, see the world. Horse is now back with her owner, completely cool and didn't end badly, at all (owner cried more than me as she was afraid she'd never find someone like me again). We're still in contact, etc, etc. I think though, what swayed my decision to chuck the towel in was that feeling of her not being mine never went away, and the highs were always harder than the lows as I felt as though they weren't mine to take. In the end it broke me. If I owner her, I know I wouldn't have made the above decision. For that reason I would never, ever loan again.

I do understand from your position, and it is your horse, so your decision. Loaner knew from the start said horse wouldn't be sold, so she'll just have to deal with that, like me. But I couldn't deal with it, in the end.

 

[oldie48]

As has been said, it's your horse do as you want but i'm going to put a different spin on it. Think about the emotional attachment that you feel for your horse, who you say you don't visit very much and imagine how your long term loaner must feel. She is dealing with the horse on a day to day basis, loves him and wants him to be hers, however much you say you won't take him back, she will always feel that there's a possibility. she gives him a good home, gets on with him and you clearly trust her or you wouldn't have loaned him to her and not visited much. Do you have plans for this horse in the future?If not, sell him to this good home and let him move on and put a little trust in other people. you are not the only caring and kind owner in the world. I've only put a horse out to loan once and that was because I knew he wouldn't pass a vetting and he was a bit quirky. He went to a lovely girl, she understood what she needed to do to keep him happy and sound and had built a great relationship with him, after a year I asked her if she wanted him permanently and I passed ownership over to her. He was recently PTS but had a number of very happy years with her.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Whilst I understand your point oldie, the OP doesn't have to sell if she doesn't want to sell.

If she decides that she wants to sell then that's different, but I would hate it if the loaner pressurised the OP to sell when in her heart of hearts she didn't want to.

 

[JJS]

As has been said, it's your horse do as you want but i'm going to put a different spin on it. Think about the emotional attachment that you feel for your horse, who you say you don't visit very much and imagine how your long term loaner must feel. She is dealing with the horse on a day to day basis, loves him and wants him to be hers, however much you say you won't take him back, she will always feel that there's a possibility. she gives him a good home, gets on with him and you clearly trust her or you wouldn't have loaned him to her and not visited much. Do you have plans for this horse in the future?If not, sell him to this good home and let him move on and put a little trust in other people. you are not the only caring and kind owner in the world. I've only put a horse out to loan once and that was because I knew he wouldn't pass a vetting and he was a bit quirky. He went to a lovely girl, she understood what she needed to do to keep him happy and sound and had built a great relationship with him, after a year I asked her if she wanted him permanently and I passed ownership over to her. He was recently PTS but had a number of very happy years with her.

^I can understand both you and your loaner's feelings on this, but this is the opinion that resonates most strongly with me. As someone who was permanently gifted my first horse but had loaned before, the loans were never the same. I couldn't let myself love them as much knowing that, however well I looked after them, one day their owners might change their minds and I could lose them. There are other people in the world who will love and care for your horse just as well as you can, and by the sounds of it your loaner is one of them. Maybe it's time to trust that someone else can have the control that ownership brings without it ending badly. As someone who was granted the gift of being given the horse I adored, I can tell you that no one except her first owner loved her more or looked after her better in her lifetime. She didn't suffer in any way because her old owner, who was struggling due to severe arthritis, let go; she thrived.

 

[MS123]

^I can understand both you and your loaner's feelings on this, but this is the opinion that resonates most strongly with me. As someone who was permanently gifted my first horse but had loaned before, the loans were never the same. I couldn't let myself love them as much knowing that, however well I looked after them, one day their owners might change their minds and I could lose them. There are other people in the world who will love and care for your horse just as well as you can, and by the sounds of it your loaner is one of them. Maybe it's time to trust that someone else can have the control that ownership brings without it ending badly. As someone who was granted the gift of being given the horse I adored, I can tell you that no one except her first owner loved her more or looked after her better in her lifetime. She didn't suffer in any way because her old owner, who was struggling due to severe arthritis, let go; she thrived.

Fabulous posts. I wish the owner of my mare would have thought like this.

 

[smellsofhorse]

I can see it from both points of view.
You want control over his future and she wants he own him outright, it will never feel the same for her.

Could you make a contract saying he is her until she can not keep him, either due to finacial or health reasons or horse is retired and she doesn't want a retired horse?

I'm sure you could get something written by a solicitor.
Loaner could either but horse and put in Agreement you can have first refusal at selling price or lower depending on health of horse or just keep it as a permeable loan.

You said yourself she has done more with this horse than you have.
So stop thinking no one will care more or give him a better future than you.

 

[catkin]

Another view from the other side, that of the loaner:

I have my little 'supernanny' of a companion on more-or-less permanent loan. The owner and I have been friends and neighbours for many many years so we know each other pretty well. The pony will never be sold, and the owners have the space and facilities to look after her properly if she ever needed to return, though they are more than happy that she is here as she gets on so well with my pony. We all hope that she will happily spend the rest of her days here - but as we are now getting older, thinking about how the animals will fare if anything should happen to us has become perhaps a bit more prominent.

I love the pony as if she was my own and I actually find it reassuring that she has a home to go to if needed. I also find it useful to chew over any problems with someone, such as when she was diagnosed with PPID, and if the worst came to the worst and we have to make the ultimate decision.

 

[SatsumaGirl]

Thanks for all the replies, everyone.
There are some interesting points and I take everything on board.

I completely understand he is better off with her at the moment, than he ever would be with me. That being said, he will always be looked after and cared for/have his needs met, if he ever was to come back.

I do not think for one second, that I am the best owner in the world and that no one else will ever be as good an owner- far from it!
I am the first to say he has the life of Riley where he is now and I couldn't be happier with the way he is being kept.
It's not that I don't believe he will ever be cared for as well, should he be sold (the loaner has already proven she is more than capable- and better for him than me) but there is the worry that if the loaner bought him and as others have said, had to sell him on (she's got a pony of her own, a youngster, another horse she's been offered to do more jumping with etc. and a family), I'd lose all control of his future and that is something I have regretted, certainly with the horses I have sold in the past and the situations they currently find themselves in (one isn't turned out and lives his life in a stable, the other... well, that's a story for another day...)!

My horse does have arthritis and can be stiff behind/takes longer to work in etc. He copes fine in general and the loaner has done dressage and small local shows with him in the time she's had him but we are both aware he's never going to be a world-beater, capable of doing X,Y and Z.

I think the replies have made me realise that I'm definitely not ready to sell just yet, purely due to what may happen in the future once he's retired or if he does develop further issues as the years go on. I think there are some really valid points and I need to reassess the agreement and make it more permanent, purely to give the loaner more peace of mind for the time being. I think that seems like a good middle-ground for the moment?

Thanks everyone, much appreciated. I do like a good balanced for/against!

 

[misskk88]

A loan is just that. Don't feel bad about not wanting to sell your own horse

This sums it up in one simple sentence!!

I haven't read other replies, but just wanted to give my experience to you.

Horse was on short term loan. Loaner wants to keep for long term loan and even asked whether ownership was a possiblity. I said I did not want to sell/sign over ownership and that whilst they will have complete rule over her care/regime etc, I want to know that whatever happens, she can always return to me. I am extremely protective of my horse, and as she is now an older lady, I want to know that she is either with me, or in a home that I am happy with. I am 1000000% happy with her loan home and have almost become like extended family. Whilst I do not predict things ever turning sour, you can never be too sure.

I also completely understand your feelings towards selling after your experiences, and I am a firm believer in following your gut feeling. If it does not feel right DON'T DO IT! He is YOUR horse and whilst your loan home may be lovely, you still do have the final say. I would be very reluctant to sell and then have a contract which states she will sell back to you if she ever wants rid- these contracts hold no worth at all.

I am also aware of the fact whilst it is long term loan, as she remains mine she could come back at any point! If you can obviously cope with him being returned should the loaner wish to return him (i.e financially and time wise), then I would stick to your guns. Yes you have an amazing loan home right now, BUT there are others out there. You would just need to be prepared that he may remain with you for some time while searching for another.

Perhaps you can sit down and discuss/review your loan agreement. You seem to have a good relationship with your loaner, but a good chat and review (even though you already do this yearly, an extra one asap might be a good idea!), will give her peace of mind that he is hers to treat as her own, and at present the only difference is the name on the passport? Of course that comes with the usual stipulations like providing daily care etc, but maybe she just needs to know she has the freedom she craves as if it were her own horse?

I would also review any notice periods for bringing the contract to an end (to protect both you and her) and if you have not already, put within the loan agreement that if you wish to sell the loaner will have first refusal.

 

[Red-1]

I can see both sides, but in a nutshell it is your horse, and as you say, if you had wanted to sell then you would have done just that.

I was going to write a long piece of some experiences, but in the end it is your choice. At least how it stands the horse will always be yours, and not sold on the open market, you can look out for him.

Yes, they may return the horse. Their choice.

 

[Janovich]

I need to reassess the agreement and make it more permanent, purely to give the loaner more peace of mind for the time being. I think that seems like a good middle-ground for the moment?

I'd lose all control of his future and that is something I have regretted, certainly with the horses I have sold in the past and the situations they currently find themselves in (one isn't turned out and lives his life in a stable, the other... well, that's a story for another day...)!

These little bits of your post above stood out for me OP...

You do what feels right for you and your horse...xx

 

[Merrymoles]

I was also a long-term loaner and can see the argument from both sides. Would I want to sell my horse to a loaner? No.

However, as a loaner I desperately wanted to own my horse. I kept him at his owners yard and he was tricky and his owner once tried to sell him to someone from 50 miles away because he was being a pain to handle. She did not offer him to me because she assumed that I could not afford him and, therefore, I didn't find out until a week later. That, and one or two fall outs about the way she managed him, meant that I was desperate to be in control. I had him for 16 years and could not have been closer to a horse. However, I was then faced with the awful situation where we needed to move areas and I knew I would not be allowed to move him off her yard.

I have no idea how I would have coped but, before the move happened he had to be PTS because of colic. I am pretty sure that if I had not had him on loan, his condition would not have been noticed for much longer and he would have suffered for longer. That alone made me decide I would never, ever have a horse on loan again.

 

[misskk88]

Whilst I see the point of the loaner that it can be hard when you desperately want your own horse, and also want to be in control of the horse you are loaning, Would I be right in thinking sometimes the expectations set by the owner can influence those decisions i.e took on loan and owner had commented potential sale in future months/years etc?

In the case of the OP she has made it very clear from the outset she did not want to sell, she has given the loaner no false hope about selling at all and has communicated very openly about why.

I think it is fair for the loaner to raise the question about whether she would ever sell, but she should also respect the owners wishes, especially in the circumstance that she took the loan on knowing that there was no possibility to buy. I know that time and circumstances can change these things, but in this case it has not and I think it unfair to be guilt tripped. Of course, there is no harm raising the question again at any loan agreement reviews- but the loaner should not pester (not saying she is, but if she were!).

OP, as I said in my previous post, your horse, your say. Do not feel pressured into a decision you are not 100% comfortable with.

 

[MS123]

Completely understandable. I have to say OP you seem a fantastic person to loan from. From a loaners perspective reading that, I'd feel a lot better about the situation. One very lucky horse to have such caring owners.

I commented previously, but was supposed to "quote" your latest post. Dohhhh!

 

[oldie48]

No absolutely, just putting a different point of view. Bit boring if everyone says the same and generally I think people know what they want to do but sometimes need the approval of others to make them feel more comfortable.

Whilst I understand your point oldie, the OP doesn't have to sell if she doesn't want to sell.

If she decides that she wants to sell then that's different, but I would hate it if the loaner pressurised the OP to sell when in her heart of hearts she didn't want to.

 

[Hetsmum]

Could you not change your loan agreement to have wording so that the loan agreement was for the next 20 years (long enough to outlive the horse) and would only be ended if the loaner wished it to be or if the owner had serious cause for concern about the horses welfare. That might give your loaner a little more stability? It gives you a 'get out clause' just in case.....

 

[Spring Feather]

I think the replies have made me realise that I'm definitely not ready to sell just yet, purely due to what may happen in the future once he's retired or if he does develop further issues as the years go on. I think there are some really valid points and I need to reassess the agreement and make it more permanent, purely to give the loaner more peace of mind for the time being. I think that seems like a good middle-ground for the moment?

Totally understand, and a slight change in your agreement could make all the difference

 

[JJS]

Could you not change your loan agreement to have wording so that the loan agreement was for the next 20 years (long enough to outlive the horse) and would only be ended if the loaner wished it to be or if the owner had serious cause for concern about the horses welfare. That might give your loaner a little more stability? It gives you a 'get out clause' just in case.....

In my opinion, that sounds like a very good compromise that should satisfy both parties.