Feeling out of my depth....

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Rachel93

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Hello all,

Okay bit of an essay…..I’ve been currently loaning a lovely 7 year old 14.3hh Blagdon cob, I’ve only been loaning him about 10 weeks if that. Here’s a little background on him, or what I know so far, he was a stallion up until a year 18 months ago and apparently he was quite aggressive, he was owned by ‘gypsies’ who supposedly drove him….he was then sent to the yard he is at now for backing, this was around June 2013 and he was backed and did a bit of XC, showing and hacking. He was then sold in July/August and I believe the owner was quite novice and she was riding in the school he spooked or moved one way she went the other and the owner fell off and quote badly hurt herself, she then sold him to a dealer (not sure how long for) but his current owner knew the dealers and managed to get him, and since then as far as I know he’s been left in the field. And here’s where I come in, so I started loaning him in November and in that time I’ve only lunged him in a round pen and the school with a lungie bungie and over poles to mix things up for him. However, he was also being shared by a lady for about 3 weeks as far as I’m aware, here is where things start to go a little wrong. From what I’ve been told he is very sharp to get on and he will spin or shoot forward, basically panics, so this sharer brought a friend up to the stables, the girl who actually backed him saw them tacking up (unaware what saddle they were using as the only saddle I’m aware of that I’ve used was a wintec that I just used for lunging him in, but was not suitable to be ridden in) and offered to help explained he was difficult to get on, they decided to carry on anyway, the sharer herself was apprehensive and her friend then offered to get on him. So as far as I know, they tried to get on him (unsure whether it was a leg up or used a mounting block) he did what his owner would say he would do, shot forward and the lady fell off in to the fence and hurt herself quote badly. So this was around 3 weeks ago and since then I started taking him up to the mounting block and leaning against him rubbing all his back and leaning across him, and he was okay. A little apprehensive standing next to the mounting block and standing still would swing his bum away from me when I went to stand on the mounting block, I stupidly tried a saddle on him just to see how it fit and I do think it was too tight on his shoulders and was uncomfortable for him, anyway I gradually put my leg over the saddle and managed to sit on him, after about 20 seconds he took a step forward and bucked, I was prepared for this and I let myself fall off and landed on my knees and was fine, he didn’t run off looked a bit startled and shocked and I took the saddle off and gave him a groom and put him back in his field. Since then I’ve bought a lunge roller, as I believe both saddle had been causing him discomfort, he desperately needed his feet done, they’ve been done and I also got a physio out to give him a massage and check him over. He did have a few tight points over his back which could’ve been related to why he was difficult to get on. Since the incident of him bucking when I got on he’s been very nervy with me touching his back end, I brought him in one night and went to pat his bum and he sucked it in like I’d hit him (this was before the physio) then I tried on the lunge roller and when I went to take it off the buckle kind of pinged and he bucked and all four feet left the ground, calmed him down and managed to get it off and get his rug back on but he was getting very uncomfortable when I tries to lift his tail over the string just about managed to do it and I turned him back out, and he has been still doing the same thing panicking when I go to touch his back end and when I lunge him when I go to swap sides if I try and pat his neck or go to check his girth he runs backwards and shies away, I just stay calm and start stroking by his head gradually moving his hand down to his girth, he was fine for the farrier and phyio but when I went to put his rug on and check it over his bum he again sucked his legs in like I’d hurt him, it was nearly 5pm dark and pouring with rain and I was a bit fed up and I growled at him and held his head tight and he was fine, so part of me is thinking is he just putting on? I’ve never had to ‘tell him off’ I’ve only ever growled at him if he’s been a bit bolshy but that’s it. He’s a really sweet friendly horse who really wants to be your friend, but he has a look of ‘I like you but I’m not sure of you’ my question is how can help him stop being so nervy and spooky of people? He’s not spooky as far as I’ve seen, tractors, pigs, tar pooling flapping in the wind, just nervous of people. My aim is just to be able to get on him, long term is local shows and hopefully novice level dressage, but for now it’s just being able to build a partnership and be able to get on him and just enjoy him. He lives out 24/7 is unclipped and has half a scoop of alfalfa, half a scoop of nuts and a quarter scoop of sugar beet, I do want to ask his owner if I can change his feed, I’d like to put him on Molliechaff Calmer, horse and pony nuts and Equine America Magnitude, and hopefully with consistent work and handling he will get better. I’ve been used to big bolshy, bold Sport horse types, I almost feel like I’m learning all over again with him! I was thinking of getting an Intelligent Horsemanship associate out to work with him and hopefully find a way to take the fear out of being mounted away for him, if anyone has any experience with nervous, green horses please do share, any tips, suggestion are welcomed. My goal is just for him to be happy and hopefully build more trust with him. Feel free to ask any questions if my post is a bit confusing! Thanks everyone for reading :)
 
Got a bit tired half way thru, suggest you get his feet sorted and start re breaking him with tack that fits and an instructor to assist.
You either have control over his management, or are being asked to ride a horse which is not ready to ride.
 
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Agree with MrsD, sounds like he is not ready to ride yet and needs to be properly re-started (always more difficult than doing it properly in the first place). This is a job for a professional, not a loaner.
 
If the girl who originally backed him is on the yard, I would try and work with her and him.

When you took him on loan/first went to see what did you do? Presuming not riding?
 
Agree with the comments above, this sounds like a job for a pro and in my view the owner is asking a lot to expect a sharer to be doing the work required on what is fast becoming a "problem" horse or certainly will be if he has 2 sharers and an owner and none are up to doing the work, no offence meant to you but it is how things go wrong with young horses.
 
Another for having him restarted professionally. If I where you I'd have the owner send him away to be restarted and iron out his quirks.

Did you loan him in order to bring him back into work?
 
Agree with the above, sounds like a restart to me.

I had a very, very green arabian who also had issues with getting on. It took many months to get him comfortable with it. I had someone to hold him and offer treats while I stood next to the mounting block, then on the mounting block, then gradually working up to popping my leg over, and eventually doing it myself (he would immediately get a treat if we were successful). You need a lot of patience and a helper to do it this way.

I don't think it's any good overall to cure a mounting issue unless that's the ONLY issue. I cured the mounting problem but not any of my lad's other problems. My lad had a terrible start and with hindsight I think he should have been turned away and rebroken by someone with a lot of experience, right from scratch. The issues you describe (and similar to those I experienced) aren't those of a well-broken, happy and confident horse being brought back into work after a break; they're issues caused by someone messing up the process in the first place. I think it will all have to be done again but will pay dividends in terms of comfort for the horse and safety for the rider in this chap's future ridden career.

Good luck - you sound very patient and that's great. Just please be careful if you decide to continue.
 
I went to see him with the presumption with work and correct handling he'll be ride able again, in all fairness due to the weather being so bad there's a been a bit of stopping and starting, also the other sharer has stopped sharing him.

Yes this is the big problem, he isn't my horse and without sounding nasty I really haven't got the finances to be sending him off for re-backing, there was no way I was going to carry on alone it was always my intention to get a instructor in, someone with real experience with difficult hosrse, I've re-backed horses before and have always tended to have quite green horses however they've been pretty straight forward whereas sometimes with him it's like having a untouched horse the way he acts. His owner actually owns the yard and has two small children so is pretty busy all the time and the only time I have time to do him is 6am before work (I work 10-6) the girl who actually backed him is hardly around and whenever I've talked about having the owner or the girl who backed him to help me, it never goes to plan. He's such a lovely boy and is very sweet, but he is such a worrier!

Also he hasn't actually got a properly fitted saddle, I keep asking to have a saddle for him but have never got round to getting one yet, his owner wants the best for him it's just difficult as I'm up there at 6am in the week and on weekends I come up later and tend to miss his owner, sorry to go on it's just a frustrating situation as I'm not really sure what will happen to him if I stop loaning him, nothing bad he might just be sat in a field or again another loaner will come along and try with him to no avail.
 
Please listen: it sounds as if this horse has had a major fright, he is sincerely scared of being mounted and presumably ridden. A frightened horse can be extremely dangerous; if you do not have experience, or very experienced help you run a substantial risk of being hurt. A job for a professional.
 
This is the responsibility of the owner; it's not for a loaner / sharer to make these decisions and pay money for. Sounds a very strange arrangement. I would suggest finding an alternative loan. You could put a lot of time / money into this horse for the owner then to sell on again.
 
Cortez said:
Please listen: it sounds as if this horse has had a major fright, he is sincerely scared of being mounted and presumably ridden. A frightened horse can be extremely dangerous; if you do not have experience, or very experienced help you run a substantial risk of being hurt. A job for a professional.
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This ^^^ the other sharer has left, very sensible of her to get out before having an accident, the owner is taking advantage in my view this is her job to sort out and pay for, not getting a well meaning person involved and to not even provide a saddle that fits is taking the p***
 
I agree with you Cortez and pony5, because he is so nervous and unpredictable he can be dangerous. My main concern is at the end of all this is to have a happy horse, I just don't know how to go about this, as I don't have the money to send him away to be re-started. I took him on with the intention to re-back him and start again with him, which has gone to plan as you can tell! :)

She has offered him to me to buy, but right now I haven't got enough savings and reluctant to buy him if I don't know what work he's going to need. I think because the owner has quite a few horses and two small children and a yard to run she kind of leaves me to it, I'm going to need to have a chat with her about him and if I can hopefully maybe see if she can get the girl who backed him to get on him (if possible) it's just a sad situation as his future could possibly be uncertain.
 
If I were you I would walk away from this situation before you get hurt. The owner needs to take proper responsibility for this horse's training either by doing it herself (if she has time and is experienced) or by paying a properly trained professional to do it. As you are loaning, are you contributing towards his costs? And is the sharer also contributing? Sounds to me like the owner has arranged a nice little package for herself if so. Sorry to sound cynical, but I really think you are being used. Good luck.

ETA just seen your post above about being offered him to buy. Please think objectively before you scrimp and save. Do you really want to own a horse that needs completely restarting, and can you afford the professional help to do so?
 
I think the horses owner is taking the mickey expecting you go basically break in her problem horse for free. I do hope you're not paying for this share!

I suspect that with her current mindset, if the owner did send the horse away for re-breaking, she'd maybe send to whoever does it cheapest and quickest. The horse would likely come back with even more problems after another bodge job.

OP is there any chance you could persuade the owner to pay for a professional to come out several times a week to help you, on the understanding that nobody else shares the horse until its fully broken in? Otherwise I think I'd walk away. There's too much effort and risk involved in this for a horse you don't own.

ETA cross posted with others! OP if you want him and can buy him (cheaply, since he's an unbroken horse with huge problems) and can afford to have him properly started yourself then go for it.
 
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No all cynical views welcome and opinions a lot of what everyone is saying is what I've been thinking. I just pay £50 a month, the lady that was also sharing him has gone, the owner actually wanted me to have to myself as she felt the sharer wasn't experienced enough and now I feel I'm not either!

I'm going to need to have a good talk about him as there are more negatives and the biggest one being I could be seriously hurt as he is so unpredictable, with time and correct schooling etc he'll be fab, he has a heart of gold and follows me around like a puppy which is strange seeing as he's so nervous of people. Hmm I need a good think about this, as I have thought I could instead save the money up and wait to find a more suitable horse, I don't mind quirky, hot, sharp horses but he is just one step to far for me, I'm not too proud to look at my abilities and say I'm over horsed or 'out of my depth' as my concern is for the horse.

Just wanted to say thank you for all your replies :)
 
Rachel93 said:
No all cynical views welcome and opinions a lot of what everyone is saying is what I've been thinking. I just pay £50 a month, the lady that was also sharing him has gone, the owner actually wanted me to have to myself as she felt the sharer wasn't experienced enough and now I feel I'm not either!

I'm going to need to have a good talk about him as there are more negatives and the biggest one being I could be seriously hurt as he is so unpredictable, with time and correct schooling etc he'll be fab, he has a heart of gold and follows me around like a puppy which is strange seeing as he's so nervous of people. Hmm I need a good think about this, as I have thought I could instead save the money up and wait to find a more suitable horse, I don't mind quirky, hot, sharp horses but he is just one step to far for me, I'm not too proud to look at my abilities and say I'm over horsed or 'out of my depth' as my concern is for the horse.

Just wanted to say thank you for all your replies :)
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It sounds like you have your head screwed on - good luck and keep us updated. :) x
 
What's to say she won't get another sharer / try to get on herself and undo any good work you have done?

You may only be paying £50 a month but given the horses issues the owner should be paying for someone to school her horse! There are plenty of people who have horses needing riding in return for nothing more than help with the jobs especially during the winter.

I would advertise on your local facebook and see if you can find yourself something more suitable :)
 
I absolutely agree. It is not fair to expect a loaner to sort this horse out, he needs restarting by someone who knows what they are doing otherwise he could lose his chance to have a good long term home. He's had a really difficult start to his life, I'm not surprised he's got some problems but you have to ask yourself, "do I have the experience and skill to sort him out?" and "If I do sort him out and turn him in a well mannered horse, what guarantee do I have that I'll keep him on loan?" Too many unscrupulous people use loaners to sort out their problem horses, bring on green horse etc then take them back and sell them or ride them themselves!Please don't buy him, with 2 small children you need a safe horse.
Cortez said:
Agree with MrsD, sounds like he is not ready to ride yet and needs to be properly re-started (always more difficult than doing it properly in the first place). This is a job for a professional, not a loaner.
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Ho hum - this is how I got back into riding after 25 years out - my neighbours had taken on a pony to break that had had remarkably similar experiences to the one you are handling now.

I did get him sorted and riding nicely by using lots of odd ideas to get him over his hangups but his owner decided he'd never be the placid old cob she wanted (so quite why she bred him I don't know) and sold him. I was pretty upset at the time, especially hearing about he downward spiral he ended up in but I never got a chance to buy him myself.

I'm afraid I'd say cut yourself out of it now and look for an easier loan, there is too much that can go wrong with this one, even right at the end when he could be sold from under you.
 
The advantage of being a sharer is that you walk away, do so now while you are still in one piece and find another more well adjusted horse to share .
If I was in charge of this horse my plan of attack would be a work up from an experianced equine vet to find out if the horse has a physical issue it's not ethical fair or safe to try to proceed if the horse has a problem if all ok after that I would get a saddler to fit a saddle properly to the best of their ability in the current situation .
Then I would send the horse to a very experianced pro this very likely to cost more than the a replacement horse will cost to buy.
Poor lad not his fault .
 
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pony5 said:
This is the responsibility of the owner; it's not for a loaner / sharer to make these decisions and pay money for. Sounds a very strange arrangement. I would suggest finding an alternative loan. You could put a lot of time / money into this horse for the owner then to sell on again.
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Agree with this. To me it sounds like the owner wanted someone to do the work for free I'm sorry to say. Its their problem not yours
 
I think you need to decide if you can afford to keep this horse, on your own. £50/month contribution to a share is really not a lot.

If you can, and can put the time in, offer the owner £50 and buy him. Otherwise, better walk away - if you continue the share the horse is almost guaranteed to be sold out from under you once he's rideable - Sorry
 
Thank you everyone for your replies, it's given me a lot of food for thought. I think because she backed him and she's seen him do it the xc and shows, she probably feels I can do it too. She did say if she sold him it would be a 4-digit number, if I could have him for £50 I'll put the money down now! If he was mine I wouldn't mind spending the money, but also I think all the money I could spend on new tack, saddle, rugs etc sending him away, possible vets bills it could add up and could buy another horse, hmm I need to really think about this. Unfortunately I hardly ever see loans in my area so when I saw him I kind of jumped at the chance.
 
She has no chance of selling this horse for a four figure sum unless an idiot cames along .
Please walk away before you get hurt Its just nor worth it , if ever you needed proof that you are working your socks of to improve a horse who will get sold from under you then the four figure comment is it .
 
Goldenstar said:
She has no chance of selling this horse for a four figure sum unless an idiot cames along .
Please walk away before you get hurt Its just nor worth it , if ever you needed proof that you are working your socks of to improve a horse who will get sold from under you then the four figure comment is it .
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totally agree with this
 
Wait a sec: she would sell a currently unrideable horse that either has unresolved physical issues or mental issues for four figures? :eek:

Have you seen her actually ride this horse? Would she get on him now, given that if I read your OP correctly, he was only turned away a matter of months after being ridden quite a bit last summer? Sounds to me like he needs some investigating; his reactions sounds pretty extreme, and whether the cause is physical or psychological, or both, still needs to be determined. That's really his owner's responsibility; she also needs to provide you with well-fitting tack. It sounds like you are sharing rather than loaning, so I'd say the responsibility for investigations and attendant vet or training bills is also with her.

The Spooky Pony's story isn't entirely dissimilar. He was sold for silly money to his previous owner as a child's competition pony. For various reasons, he was then turned away for a year, and I was asked if I wanted to bring him back into work. I jumped at the chance, not having a horse at the time, and took him on loan. It was readily apparent after a few days that he was very, very green, and really scared of everything. He, too, is very sweet-natured, and he's a true gentleman to handle, but the first while, he would tear himself loose and run across the yard if you came at him with a dandy brush from the wrong angle. I stuck with him, and bought him a few months later, paying well over the odds for him because by that point, he was my spooky pony, and because I wanted him enough not to want to cause offense by offering what his market value probably was. I've had him for over 5 years now, and have had consistent professional support. Nevertheless, he's still tricky, still spooky, had a complete re-adjustment of career to what he was willing to do, and has managed to shatter my confidence several times. I've learned an enormous amount, and undoubtedly made many mistakes along the way. While he's here to stay, still, I'd think very carefully about getting into such a situation again, and when a mare came up last spring that turned out to be the wrong fit, I sent her to someone more appropriate (and my new mare came along the same day!).
 
sorry my eyes can't cope with all of that...but fom what i can gether the best thing to do would be to go back to the beginning that way you know what he has been taught (by you) also good way to build a bond
 
I'm not sure if I can put the price on here? I'll edit it out if I shouldn't, but she was asking for a £1000 for him, I think she sees he has potential so he's worth it. But at the moment he can be almost unhandable. I've never seen her ride him, but I've seen pictures of him doing cross country and showing and pictures of people gettimg on and off him, so it had been done. She said he's fine after a week, still not 100% he will be okay as he's very nervy at the moment. Does anyone think it's worth me getting a instructor out to evaluate him? Or a intelligent horsemanship instructor?
 
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