Feeling Really Low - Kissing Spine Op Experiences Needed

[ebonyblackandwhite]

Well i am thoroughly depressed now. My horse had kissing spine surgery back in feb and is seen by physio every 4 weeks. She started being long reined approx 5 weeks. Just 30 mins in a nice forward walk every other day. Physio came to see her today and she's much worse. Lame on back end in trot, really shuffly and uncomfortable, can't cross hind legs when circling and has been generally miserable. She seems to hate being long reined and has tension in face and muzzle the whole way round. Physio has suggested we try a set of lightweight shoes for a month to see if anything improves (she has been unshod the 3.5 years thats i have had her) and if no improvement we will need to discuss where to go from here. She has also not built up any muscle on her back but has on her bottom and her lower neck. Bloody rubbish. Physio said that if in a few months there is no improvement and she even continues to decline she would support a decision to PTS.

 

[claracanter]

So sorry to hear this...How about getting the vet out to have a look at what else might be causing the lameness...I understand that some horses with kissing spines have other issues as well...Fingers crossed for you.

 

[stencilface]

Would it be worth discussing work on a water treadmill with your vet? These are meant to be very good for rehab. Other than tha I would recommend Gavin scofield who is an osteopath and has helped my horse with us back after psd injury last year, he works to help their posture and alignment, don't ask me how but it works IMHO!

A friends horse had ks surgery in 2010, spent 2011 novice eventing, and this year is competing for the first time at intermediate.

 

[tamsinkb]

My horse has KS and has not had surgery as, following a bone scan, he was identified as having SI issues as well - the vet wanted to treat the SI joint first and now ( 2 months later) he is so much improved that we are postponing the surgery indefinatly! Get your vet out and discuss what else could be causing the lameness ......and don't give up hope

Good luck!

 

[Wagtail]

Is it possible your girl could have fallen? What were her initial symptoms that led to the diagnosis of KS? My boy has had the op and we are also having a set back. I have turned him away for 3 months and will be trying again in a week or so. What you describe does not sound typical kissing spine symptoms. Hopefully she has just really plled something and it will mend. Keep us posted.

 

[dominobrown]

Hi my horse had the kissing spine op in 09 and was eventing etc in 10. I recommend feeding a joint supplement and a no bute equivilant supplement. It is vey important to rehab properly and build muscle up along the back slowly before attempting to ride. I found lunging in a chambon helped. Also I used back massage and magnetic pads. I would suggest trying her on bute for a few days and seeing if there is an improvement. Also my horse is getting acupuncture now as well. Pm is you want my horses rehab plan and an update on how the acupuncture works.

 

[ebonyblackandwhite]

Thanks for your replies. Her symptons were reluctance to pick up back feet, girthing irritibility, shuffling and not using her back end properly, lameness under saddle, head carriage of a giraffe and what i can only describe as a pogo canter. She attended a lameness clinic and had her back x rayed and was diagnosed with sever kissing spine with surgery the only feasible option. The bones weren't just touching the were overlapping. A couple of weeks later she went in to have 3 spiny processes removed whilst standing, she stayed at the vets for 11 days, came home and had a further 4 weeks box rest, moved onto 24/7 turnout in a restricted area for 2 weeks then back out 24/7 with the 3 others. Seen by physio on 1st may for a check up and h wave treatment, on 22nd may for another treatment and a full check over. In hand work commenced just after the 2nd appt with physio. Just long reining in walk for 20/30 mins every other day. She is a bit foot sore at mo on the gravel so trying shoes to see if this helps her at all although shes been unshod since i've had her. shoes go on next wed then i am to work her as normal and physio to check her. if no change vet will have to come back out. Unfortunately i have now maxed out my insurance policy (except for physio and a few other rememedial things) and used the little savings i had on this so i am limited by that. She could quite possibly have another problem alongside the ks. Other problem is she's such a stressy and anxious mare its really hard to tell if she's uncomfortable in pain or just her.

 

[ebonyblackandwhite]

Update - I have spoken to the vet who did her surgery back in feb. He has given me bute and domosedan sedation for her to have for the farrier but thinks that the chance of shoes helping is incredibly slim. He said that it cannot be her back causing pain and making her lame as the offending spines have been removed therefore she must have another problem. So the plan is farrier next wed followed by another lameness clinic at vet on tues 11th. Vet booked for 1st thing in morning the sedate her to get her in the trailer and i'll have to round up volunteers to help walk her in. I am to ring the vet next frin in case of (his words) a miracle and shes sound with shoes. He has told me not to work her in case of making thigs worse so i feel even more confused now as 2 specialists contradicting each other. I am going to try and get the physio to ring the vet to have a chat about my mare

 

[cptrayes]

Why would you put her through the shoeing or give yourself the expense if the Vet says shoes won't help.

I'd have the lameness check first, and hold off on the shoes.

 

[ebonyblackandwhite]

I guess because the physio suggested it as she was a bit footsore on the gravel. vet hasn't seen her move. i really don't know what to do for the best. maybe i need to speak to them both again whether there is any point. i'll put her through anything that may help unless its to her detriment. She was shod her whole life before i had but has been barefoot for 3.5 years so not sure either why all of a sudden this was cause such a problem

 

[NeedNewHorse]

When the physio came out what did she say the state of her back was like?? Is your horse lame still now or just not right?

 

[ebonyblackandwhite]

Physio said back has healed nicely but she has not built up any muscle on it. She is not sore on back when manipulated. The soreness seems to be in her neck, poll and SI/pelvis area. I have just checked report and it says she is basically tense/stiff in neck, shoulders, thoracic back and lumbar area. The SI/pelvis is tight, the shoulders are guarded and the lumbar back is blocked. She is still exactly the same. Taking short steps which are a bit shuffly. Everything on the report also indicates the right side is worse than left but to my untrained eye i can see she isn't happy but cannot see which is worse

 

[Eye_Spy]

My mare was diagnosed with KS in Dec 11 @ Newmarket. Too severe to operate as processes were overlapping at the top and bottom. She had 2 sessions of shock wave therapy and that is the extent of her treatment!

We did 10 weeks walk work- normally in straight lines with an equi ami on to try and encourage stretching over the back.

Then gradually began ridden work to having my first jumping lesson since diagnosis 4 weeks ago where my trainer said he wouldn't know she had any issues.

We have had a set back in the last couple of weeks with tightness over the loins on the right side making her struggle with canter on the left rein but physio has been and seems better. My physio explained that because her condition hasn't really changed she will carry herself differently to compensate and thus have tightness elsewhere.

Are you keeping him extra extra warm? I find mine struggles when it's damp and cold. I ALWAYS ride in a quarter sheet now after the last physio session and this has made a massive difference. It was 23 degrees here yesterday and I rode in a quarter sheet!

We hope to get out to compete before the eventing season ends this year so there is life after KS! Everything is fed off of the floor, all work starts long and low and whatever rug I would put on the others, she gets one thicker. I could write pages about my experiences with Ks so if you want more info pm me

 

[islandspirit]

After my horses surgery for 5 processes to be removed, his back atrophied on one side, the only thing that worked was a tens machine which was used religiously very day for 4 weeks along with the carrot stretches as described in the book, how to activate your horses core. My physio set up the tens machine for me and showed me where to place the pads and it made a huge difference. I do think it is also wise to have a second lameness work up as many horses with kissing spines have other issues, either caused by compensating for the kissing spines or the actual problem that caused the kissing spines in the first place.

 

[TicTac]

My mare had a very successful kissing spine operation and all was well for a good year after the op. She was fab and like a different horse to ride but then unfortunately went lame in front. She was finally diagnosed with DJD of the coffin joint and is now retired. I am gutted as she is a lovely horse but I guess you never know the outcome untill you give them a chance.

 

[Bobbly]

This might sound a bit strange but if she is not having the problem in her back now and it seems to be elsewhere, ask your vet/chiro to check her hyoid bone in her jaw. This bone is attached to the base of the tongue (only in horses) and should be very flexible and if it is wrong then it can affect all the ligaments right through to the sacroiliac joint. Its a much ignored little bone but can be very influential because of it's attachments and can cause a chain link effect right through the body. Just a possibilty?

 

[ebonyblackandwhite]

UPDATE - Had shoes put on today and she was really good. Farrier can't see how they will help her either. Now she is booked into lameness clinic next tuesday but physio (who has seen her when vet hasn't) is saying its far too premature for her to go as it could still be her back and we need to give her more time. Plus the clinic will stress her out and its not really necessary at the moment. I feel like piggy in the middle. Would you go with the physio or the vets opinion?

 

[cptrayes]

Well to be honest the physio giving you advice against your vet is definitely unethical and quite possibly illegal.

Go with the vet.

 

[pip6]

Is it right to leave her in pain until physio happy for her to go? Surely it must be better to go get a professional opinion (no disrespect to physio but IMHO I would rank vet opinion higher) from vet? If it is her back still sore he will be able to diagnose that (& rule out other possibilities). Some stress for a definative diagnosis is worthwhile. If she gets unduly stressed there the vet will be able to help her cope. If your physio has serious issues with the vets treatment they should be discusssing it with vet not using you as a go-between.

 

[ebonyblackandwhite]

The thing is how do you know how much pain they are in. i agree with what your saying and its only the vet that can diagnose but my worry is them being too hasty and i have a bill that i have no way of paying. i know that sounds selfish but i have to be sensible. if it is to do wit her back, pelvis or spine she is no longer insured. I also agree that i think the 2 professionals should be discussing this case as im just a lay person really and don't know the ins and outs.

 

[cptrayes]

Ummmmm.

I am really sorry, but lack of finances is a very good reason not to own a horse.

It's a lousy reason not to call a vet.

If you genuinely, seriously have no way of paying this bill, (as opposed to using it as a figure of speech) then you should not be owning a horse. This is a lesson to anyone who goes into horse ownership. You may be able to afford it when you are insured, but with insurers excluding any previous condition, you also need to be able to afford it when you are not insured or you should not buy the horse in the first place. Hard, I know, but true.

OP, I am sorry for you but you are going to have to go into debt if necessary. Get the horse the care it needs, or you will be committing a criminal act and could end up in court. Your physio is already extremely borderline on whether the advice she is giving you is legal.

Be clear about it, you aren't "being selfish", you are breaking the law if you do not call a vet when a horse needs a vet.

 

[ebonyblackandwhite]

I would not allow my animal to suffer and would never brake the law so thank you very much for being so harsh cptrayes. Are you telling me everyone who owns horses has thousands put aside in case insurance companies don't pay out. I don't think so. We do the absolute best we can for them but money very often ends up being a consideration in the treatment we put them through. This horse would not be alive today if i had not taken her on so i have been very unselfish with regards to that. She was due to be shot nearly 4 years ago. I will be in debt if needs be as long as my vet will alow me to make a repayment plan but i really don't see how the physio is bordering on giving me illegal advice. Maybe some more knowledgable people on her could explain that to me. What my physio is saying is that she is probably expecting the work to hurt her so is guarding herself from it which in turn is causing her to move in an ineffective way. She thinks we need to persevere and help her understand its no longer painful for a bit longer before involving vet. She is happier in her movement in trot after the latest physio treatment and whos to say vet isn't being to hasty. He hasn't even suggested coming out and taking a look at her move and working with the physio like i was told in the first place. This is also the physio that my vet thoroughly recommends and so did the other vet practice i used to use. Sorry if i have seemed snappy but i feel i have done a lot for my mare, i will get her seen by vet to check everything is ok but i don't know whether that should be now or after next physio visit and i also think that the vet telling me 100% that there is something else wrong and the insurance will def cover it is silly as there is no way he can possibly know that over the phone

 

[lynds81]

I would not allow my animal to suffer and would never brake the law so thank you very much for being so harsh cptrayes. Are you telling me everyone who owns horses has thousands put aside in case insurance companies don't pay out. I don't think so. We do the absolute best we can for them but money very often ends up being a consideration in the treatment we put them through. This horse would not be alive today if i had not taken her on so i have been very unselfish with regards to that. She was due to be shot nearly 4 years ago. I will be in debt if needs be as long as my vet will alow me to make a repayment plan but i really don't see how the physio is bordering on giving me illegal advice. Maybe some more knowledgable people on her could explain that to me. What my physio is saying is that she is probably expecting the work to hurt her so is guarding herself from it which in turn is causing her to move in an ineffective way. She thinks we need to persevere and help her understand its no longer painful for a bit longer before involving vet. She is happier in her movement in trot after the latest physio treatment and whos to say vet isn't being to hasty. He hasn't even suggested coming out and taking a look at her move and working with the physio like i was told in the first place. This is also the physio that my vet thoroughly recommends and so did the other vet practice i used to use. Sorry if i have seemed snappy but i feel i have done a lot for my mare, i will get her seen by vet to check everything is ok but i don't know whether that should be now or after next physio visit and i also think that the vet telling me 100% that there is something else wrong and the insurance will def cover it is silly as there is no way he can possibly know that over the phone

For what it's worth, I suggest you ignore certain comments above! Not many of us have unlimited money to spend, but that doesn't mean if our horses genuinely need the vet we won't call them, simply that we don't want to call them when we don't need to!!

I had a horse with kissing spines, she didn't have surgery though. She had her spine and SI joint injected, quite a lot of physio with the tens machine and a number of vet visits. It didn't work. The vets told me they didn't think she would get over it, but as a last ditch attempt to try Leigh Miller, who is a chiropractor, although they didn't think it would make much difference. Leigh came out, treated her and worked with her with exercises and treatment and got her back from unrideable to PN eventing.

In her case, hers flared up after an incident where she got caught on a XC fence. They think that she must have pulled her pelvis right out, which is what caused her spinal processes to start rubbing together, hence why the kissing spine then improved once this was corrected and she had a work program to rebuild the correct muscle.

Just another thought maybe? Hope you can sort your horse out.

 

[ebonyblackandwhite]

Thanks lynds81. I think my message was probably terribly worded but what i was trying to get across is she doesn't seem like she needs to be rushed in. I have taken video of her walking and trotting today and have sent it to the physio and the vet. I just don't want to put her through things she finds traumatic if not necessary. Vet is supposed to be calling me today and i am going to ask him to speak to the physio. I also have cover on insurance for acupuncture, laser therapy, ultrasound and hydrotherapy (although as she doesn't load very well not sure how well that would work) so will ask him if any of those things would help her.

 

[cptrayes]

To anyone who does not want to be told that they do not have enough money to own a horse, then I strongly suggest that you do not post saying that you are not going to call a vet to a lame horse because you cannot afford it. The OP did, after all, write

i have a bill that i have no way of paying

If you don't mean it don't write it. I did say that my comment was not relevant if you had used it as a figure of speech and I fail to see why I should be abused for responding to what YOU wrote.

Can I also ask the people who think it's OK to keep a horse if you have absolutely no way of paying a vet bill for an uninsured condition - why the hell do you think your Vet should provide his services to you for free? If you can't buy petrol to put in your car you don't keep one. The same applies to horses.

 

[cptrayes]

i really don't see how the physio is bordering on giving me illegal advice.

It is illegal for anyone other than a Vet to diagnose what is wrong with a horse. Your physio is sailing close to the wind diagnosing your horse's ongoing lameness. The right thing is now happening in that you, her and your vet are talking together.

 

[ebonyblackandwhite]

cptrayes. I apologise if you feel you have been abused although i have re read my message and don't think i did. I also think my post that you responded to was terribly worded so understand why you said what you did. I had a rubbish day and didn't re read what i had written so i agree it sounded like i was a terrible horse owner. I basically would never allow any of my horses to suffer and they always see the vet if it is needed and sometimes when it probably wasn't necessary as i am a bit of a worrier. I also never specified with the lameness what severity it was. It is very low level lameness and actually since the treatment from the physio she seems fairly back to normal. My concern was more for the vet telling me it is 100% another condition and will def be covered when actually how on earth can he know that when he hasn't even seen her. Tbh i know i said a bill i couldn't afford to pay what i meant was i don't have thousands floating in my bank account however i could borrow, credit card, repayment plan at vets which they would do as i have checked with them so she will get whatever she needs. The physio is basing on what she sees and knows of the mare which is also more than the vets have seen recently but i now understand what you mean by borderline illegal with regards to diagnosing her. The lameness clinic has been put on hold for now as she seems ok but i am going to get the vet who did the op (if he ever returns my calls and emails) to come and have a look at her when physio comes in a week or so. That way they can discuss it together as i'm having no luck at all in getting 2 professionals to discuss this case for me and i do feel like ive ended up piggy in the middle. apologies again if you thought i was rude

 

[cptrayes]

No probs! I could have been more sympathetic to your problems with your horse too. I hope you manage to get him sorted out soon, you've had enough worry this year already.