Feet and impact on the rest of the horse

chaps89

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Had a change of farrier thanks to covid.
Pony has a few niggles and I'm wondering if it's related, but she also has other issues so not sure if I'm over-thinking the feet thing.
- Loss of muscle/top line behind the whither area
- Standing with front feet under the body, the reverse of a laminitic stance
- Occasional tripping
With these symptons, how would you expect her feet to look?
Apologies for being vague, trying to not to lead anyone into an answer
 

TPO

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I'd expect them to look badly shod and out of balance if these are all new issues since changing farrier
 

BBP

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I’d expect a long toe (not necessarily dramatically so, visually my horses feet looked ok, but they were/are too long, tubules running forwards) and low heel. Both front and hind feet.
 

Pearlsasinger

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2 things spring to mind; the old saying 'no foot, no horse' and 'if one management aspect changes and the horse changes in any way, look at and if possible, reverse, the management change'. In your case, it sounds as if your change of farrier has had a detrimental effect on your pony. I would look for another farrier, if you can't go back to the original one. Sadly some farriers can do a lot of damage in a short time.
 
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chaps89

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Thanks everyone.
That's what I'm seeing, but I wasn't sure if it could be causing issues elsewhere

Farrier seems great and to really try/very thorough, as well as turning up on time etc but he doesn't seem to have got to grips with the fact she really needs short toes :( ugh, not looking forwards to trying to fix this!
 

chaps89

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I do but I'm not keen on sharing them publicly atm as I know they're not good and I can't bear getting a slating :( I really do try and do my best for this little mare and feel like I've got this one massively wrong.
If anyone wants I can share by pm but please be gentle with me
 

BBP

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I’d be interested if you would pm them? Just because mine has also had that camped under stance and dropped off behind the wither, so I’ve become obsessed with looking at feet. No slating from me!
 

IrishMilo

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I do but I'm not keen on sharing them publicly atm as I know they're not good and I can't bear getting a slating :( I really do try and do my best for this little mare and feel like I've got this one massively wrong.
If anyone wants I can share by pm but please be gentle with me

Unless you're really into a certain subject it's pretty difficult to pick the good from the bad. You're open to learning and that's more than a lot of people, so don't feel bad. Feel free to PM me pics, I love a good foot discussion.
 

ownedbyaconnie

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Please don’t feel like you can’t share them OP. You’ve acknowledged they probably aren’t right and are looking for guidance, no one can slate you for that.

From a selfish POV my mare stands slightly camped under with her front feet so I would be really interested to see if your horses feet are similar to mine and what people say.

ETA I will find a photo of mine and post too.
 
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chaps89

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Photos from this week. I'm really happy with how her tummy is toning up and her weight for an EMS pony in summer. But lack of topline and camped under.
Physio has given us some exercises to do.

In brief, her history is:
PSD near fore
Collateral ligament damage off fore
High and low ringbone in 3 out of 4 feet (interestingly on later x-rays the bone has re-modelled and it isn't as bad as wen first diagnosed)
Iffy right hind
Ulcers
Liver failure/hepatitis
Lyme disease
EMS/very very mild laminitis a few years ago
Most recently hind suspensories

She is best in work, being ridden correctly helps with her soundness.
We had 2 years sound until last September when she went lame LF. Rested, medicated suspensories and re-habbed.
Accident falling out of the stable in April I think this year, lame LH.
Suspensories re-medicated and re-habbed and currently in full work and working on fitness.
She will have been 3 weeks since being shod tomorrow morning.
Off to work now, please be nice!

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The Fuzzy Furry

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Having seen those feet in real life much earlier this year, she's more back on her heels in front than she was 8+ months ago.
Have you got pics from then?
Ref the top line, in the photos above, I think her back end hasn't changed much, but she has lost some of the top line on her neck and through to just in front of her loins, not lots but a bit. Has she been working up together or more on a loose rein?
 

chaps89

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Having seen those feet in real life much earlier this year, she's more back on her heels in front than she was 8+ months ago.
Have you got pics from then?
Ref the top line, in the photos above, I think her back end hasn't changed much, but she has lost some of the top line on her neck and through to just in front of her loins, not lots but a bit. Has she been working up together or more on a loose rein?

Having a mental block - is more back at the heels a good or bad thing - ie do you think her feet are better or worse now than they used to be?
Agree, back end looks alright, it's just behind the whither and neck a little.
About 50/50 if she's on a loose rein or up in a contact tbh.
Slowly up-ing what I'm asking for in the work, hacking is hard around here, can't do a contact out here as so much traffic I'm always busy either telling people to slow down or say thankyou, but am boxing out once or twice a week and getting proper work in to her plus a decent schooling session once a week which is more than normal for her.
Physio suggested an equicore as well as various stretches and tummy tucks. I value my fingers so not sure how successful well be with stretches but will give it a go. Equicore is £££, even the copies are quite £ so just thinking about that one!
 

The Fuzzy Furry

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It might be worth getting a good side on film of her moving in walk and trot, that you can slow down to watch her foot fall for gait analysis and to see how much or little she moves from the shoulder. Therein could be part of the answer to her top line.
Ref the feet, there are others here who are vastly more on top of this, but I'd suggest that the heels are becoming under run. Have you chatted to farrier? X
 
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chaps89

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Thanks, under-run heels is a term I'm more familiar with and what I was thinking too - toes too long and heels that are dropping, but I'm no expert.
I'll try and dig out some old photos for comparison too.
Will do some videoing.
She still seems to be landing heel first at the moment from what I can tell thankfully.
Farrier watches her walk and trot up pre and post every shoeing and seems very thorough, constantly assessing angles, tweaking a bit here and there but it just doesn't quite seem to be hitting the spot.
Last visit I said she'd started tripping badly in trot and so I had looked at past photos of her feet and felt her toes were getting too long (she needs the breakover alot further back than most would according to old farrier) but he watched her and said she wasn't quite pushing as well from behind and couldn't see any problems that would be shoeing related.
I was hoping that the conversation would mean he'd make some changes but 3 weeks later and I feel like she's due to be done again already!
Because he seems to try, her feet are tricky and he's good at turning up on time/none of that b*llocks you get with some farriers etc I wouldn't mind working with him on this but not to her detriment so I'm kinda feeling like 1 last chance then back to the drawing board?

Re: growth rings/event lines. She was having mild laminitic episodes in Feb this year after I ignored my gut instinct and took a chance on liverying her somewhere that put ad-lib hay out in the field - baaaad idea!
We moved from there pronto, with a brief stop at a very kind persons yard who took us whilst I found somewhere permanent, and we've been at current yard since end March I think it is.
She's now on a track with a little companion friend and very settled. Out at night, in during the day, bar 3 weeks complete box rest and 3 weeks gradual return to turnout when she had her accident.
Feet wise she gets 25-50g of speedi-beet and 50g thunderbrooks organic chaff twice a day with some sea salt and equimins advance complete.
Currently getting 4kg on soaked/rinsed/drained hay in the day, with a tub of barley straw.
Track is now pretty bare so more barley straw and 2kg of soaked/rinsed hay at night between her and her companion.
We haven't (touch wood) had any signs of any laminitic episodes since the old yard, and she has been negative to hoof testers on each shoeing visit too.
 

Nudibranch

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I had a horse whose feet defied everything. Their default position was long toe, collapsed heel but only in front. He did have a lot going on elsewhere (SI, hocks, neck) and I am convinced that was what was affecting the feet.
 

ycbm

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I had a horse whose feet defied everything. Their default position was long toe, collapsed heel but only in front. He did have a lot going on elsewhere (SI, hocks, neck) and I am convinced that was what was affecting the feet.

The only horse I've had whose feet ran forward with a long toe and didn't respond to anything I did turned out to have serious kissing spines. When they were fixed, his feet began to come right.

It can be a chicken and egg with feet and bodies.
 

Red-1

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I feel for you, and no, I don't like the shoeing. The fronts in particular, the shoe goes nowhere near under the heels enough for me. The whole sole is growing forwards compared to the horse. It actually looks like the heels are hanging off the backs of the shoes.

Have a look at the other thread referred to, showing many hooves. I put photos of my new horse on. He too had lami this summer, had just finished box rest for it. I always think that barefoot is better to bring the heels back, and I showed an 'after' shot of just one trim.
 

Meowy Catkin

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Would you consider a break from shoes?

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The heels are very contracted in the above photo. This is something that is more effectively ad easily reversed without shoes.
 

chaps89

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Thanks All.
Its good to know I was right not to be happy and roughly why not.

She hasn't been cushings tested - maybe I'm being thick but I thought they couldn't have both EMS and cushings? Curious as to why you ask?

She has so many various issues (we've stopped doing full diagnostics now and treat conservatively as a general rule) that it could well be chicken and egg with feet vs body. I guess my feeling on this one is farrier has changed, feet have changed and there are now niggles so the bit that's changed feels like the starting point for working out what it is this time. But worth bearing in mind of course.

I'm not opposed to taking shoes off at all, last horse was barefoot for a long while. She didn't originally have hind shoes on but with her toe dragging we had to shoe behind in the end. Toe dragging improves with work and fitness thankfully.
Interestingly my instructor is pro-barefoot as a general rule and my vet is quite open minded about it but both feel she is better in shoes (when shod properly)
She is the kind of horse who is infinitely better, and sounder, when in good amounts of work tbh - and I've never known a horse take so long to build her fitness up which is why I'm a bit reluctant to take shoes off with her.
My yard is made up of broken concrete/gravel, we also have to walk along a road to get to the field and hacking here is all road work. I'm not opposed to booting up and doing a slow rehab as this is a good time of year for it as I'm happy with her weight and the ground is soft/we are a way off it freezing hopefully so it's definitely something to consider, I'm just not quite as quick to do it as I was with my old boy.
 
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