FEI to allow horses to compete on bute!

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Typical Princess Haya! Always totally convinced that she is right and no-one else has any worthwhile opinion.





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I hate to be cynical
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However everybody is looking at eventing and SJ and the repercussions.The fact is that in recent history it is endurance riding that has higher levels of test failures and in particular one families horses. Read into that what you will.

However that does not mean I am opposed to it as described however how long will it be before 1g becomes2g etc etc
 
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Not for people to be able to compete lame horses as 1 sachet of bute will not make a lame horse sound.

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Actually, not all vets would agree with this. Dr Peter Kallings, who is the top vet in regards to equine doping issues in Sweden, says that 8 micrograms of phenylbutazone per litre of blood (the limit decided upon yesterday) has "full therapeutic effect" and in his opinion in many cases this will directly lead to a horse not feeling pain, thus performing better. He also says that there is scientific evidence that on race horses in the USA, this level of bute and competing means that the horses really are being damaged. (I have not read this original evidence though).

This evidence is directly opposite to that presented by Princess Haya and her team.

The article in Swedish is here if anyone wants to do a Google translate http://www.hastmagazinet.se/newsItem.asp...20uppfattningar
 
Personally I am not disputung whether it helps some horses or not, it is the moral question and also the one of public perception. particularly as another drug on the new list of permited drugs is isoxuperine (sp) which as i recall is used to treat horses with navicular is it not.........
the showjumpers must be loving this. and they do trot up by the way for CSI's, although it is not the big formal affair it is for eventing generally and IMO possibly not as stritch.
 
QR - Considering the problems i am having with my ankle at the moment, i would rather pop a paracetamol (bute) than have my legs wrapped up in ice for hours, its a shame horses, until now, havent had the same option
I would rather give my horse a bute than ice its legs, surely a lot nicer for the horse.
On a bad day a taking a paracetamol doesnt help me, and i have to limp, surely bute will be the same, and if the injury is serious it will not mask it.
 
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QR

Agree with tabledancer, its like us taking a paracetamol the day before an event because we feel a bit off!
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One bute may be needed 4/5 days before comp - horse may have banged himself in field or could be sore from casting a shoe - both short term problems and not going to affect horse competing!!

One Bute is us taking a paracetalmol - not going to affect our way of thinking tbh
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I'd say there is a big difference because if you have a bad pain in say your knee, you could say how much it hurts...the horse can't.

How long does bute stay in the system? so are you saying that if a horse was entered to compete say on the Saturday and five days previous to that he needed a bute (1) for a sore somewhere....would that 1 bute still be detected in the system in a blood test on the Saturday?

I don't know so perhaps someone could tell me.? this is a genuine need to know question to try and understand what the FEI are trying to achieve.

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In answer to your question - yes
For this reason, I also agree with Tabledancer.
If your horse knocks himself, small cut, pulled shoes you might give him a couple of days of bute ( & obviously wouldn't compete him at that point) however, once he's over this, the question I always have is how long before there is no residue left in their system.

With this rule, which is the equivalent to 1 sachet being given 24 hours before, you know that as long as it has been a couple of days there would be no danger of failing a dope test. The same applies if medicated feed buckets get mixed up (we have a separate medication feed bucket for this reason) If there was a trace, it wouldn't be enough to fail a dope test on.

That's how I read this rule & thus feel it prevents horses failing a dope test for unintentional reasons. Not for people to be able to compete lame horses as 1 sachet of bute will not make a lame horse sound.

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Thankyou for your informed answer
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just trying to find the reasoning behind everything ie changing the rule book, and time lengths for bute in the system etc.

If you are correct then I can't see the reason for changing the rules.
 
I have to agree with tabledancer on this. i am sure FEI will qualify the ruling and set time limits, dosage, etc. you will always get people cheating in any sport who do get away with it, but one day they will be found out. i think if a person cheats then what they achieve has no value in my eyes.
 
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The issue is simply whether the FEI General Assembly was fully appraised of the facts before they voted. The evidence suggests they were not. The fallout from this could be huge for horse sport. For an excellent summation of what went on I recommend the Pippa Cuckson's reports for the Daily Telegraph:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/equestrianism/

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Thanks very good reports!

Have just read the lot and there are an awful lot of amazed and angry people regarding the decision to re-introduce Bute, I still can't understand the reasoning behind this decision, I do not think it will work for the riders or the horses, and zero tolerance should have remained: sound confident riders and sound confident horses. Now nobody will know what they are doing. What a sad day
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As an endurance rider, this new FEI ruling is particularly depressing.

The welfare of the horses in our sport depends on minor issues being picked up quickly either by the vets at the vetgates or by the riders en route, before they become major issues. Currently, that 'minor muscle stiffness' will result in a horse being spun at a vetgate, and quite rightly too as it prevents the tired/sore horse getting into real trouble over potentially another 10 hours of riding. That 'minor muscle stiffness' could be the first indicator that you get that the horse is on the way to tying up. If bute is brought into the mix, there is a serious risk of the warning signs of a compromised horse becoming undetectable.

As an example, our horse Spud has been vetted out twice for very minor lamenesses this year - both for the same reason (a foot bruise that took longer than expected to heal and grow out) and both of which were so minor that half a bute earlier in the day would have probably made him look level at the vetting. But had we carried on he would have become very sore indeed.
 
It's ridiculous IMO. Surely bute is definately "performance enhancing" since a horse who needed it wouldn't be able to compete otherwise!

I think it goes against what's best for the horse. Too many people will now try and cover up injuries by using bute. Surely, everyone will now bute their horse automatically before any eventing trot-ups?!
 
It seems to me that PH has railroaded this ruling through with a total disregard to full and informed voting. It is interesting that her family have recently been found guilty of using banned substances on endurance horses. Personally I can't wait for her to step down, she seems to have no grasp of the pressure that equine sport is under to be squeeky clean- the vast majority of non horsey public know that horses do not choose to compete, it is ambitious people who want the glory, public acclaim and sometimes profits which pitches the equine into competition. Giving pain killers to horses can never be compared to athletes dosing themselves -human beings choose for themselves often motivated by their own agenda.
 
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I seem to be in a minority here but I think it could be a good thing. I am old enough to remember the days when most horses were given a bit of bute after XC at an international 3 day: don't know if it was allowed or just not policed very well in those days!

I think some of the responses above are very emotional and not necessarily well-informed: nobody is talking about allowing horses who are on regular/large amounts of bute to compete. However, certainly in my sport there is an argument that it is actually in the horses' best interests to allow a very small dose of anti-inflammatory pain relief after XC to ease the inevitable aches and pains. If a horse has a real injury this amount of bute will never mask it - you are far more likely to get away with masking it by numbing it with ice, which is permitted anyway!

In my view, this is a useful and important debate. While there are pros and cons, personally I come out in favour of a low tolerance level for bute and, quite possibly for some other commonly-used medicines which may have been used several weeks previously but still be present in the system at trace levels. If a rider is tested and found to have a tiny trace of antibiotic in their horse's system, for instance, they are currently punished in the same way as a rider who has been caught out doping their horse with completely un-licensed human anti-psychotic drugs (say
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) I think some form of differentiation along the lines the FEI is trying to establish is quite right and, while they may not have it quite right yet, their efforts are to be applauded.

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I concur!
 
I agree 1 bute wont make any differance if a horse has a serious problem but it would help the older horses have a longer career.Cant see some vets so keen so as there wouldnt be the need for so much treatment to the joints???
 
Like I said above, top doping vet Dr Peter Kallings (head of the Swedish Institute for Equine Research and head vet for medication and doping issues for the Swedish Equestrian Sports Society) definitely thinks the allowed dosage is performance enhancing and that competing horses on that dose could be damaging to them (as proven by studies on race horses in America). I guess it is down to who you believe. Personally the fact that this vet has put forward such strong opinions backed up by scientific study, is enough for me to be against this new rule.
 
In my mind - a bit of bute for a horse that genuinely needs it to make it comfortable seems fine to me, but I can't help feeling that it will be open to abuse.... before we know it every horse will be taking it for one-thing or another and I am sure they will have 'Good Reasons' and vets willing to back them up.
The No Tolerance Rule stood for something, this just makes our sport look like a joke - when we don't like the rules we change them??
 
Hi,

This is my first post here and please forgive my bad english - I'm german
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Please support me and my friend who have just started an online petition against FEI's progressive list. You can find it here:

http://www.no-fei.com/

It also got some english explanations on it, so don't worry you have to learn german.
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All great European Rider nations should stick together and vote against this horrible decision the FEI made last week.

Thx a lot !!!
 
They will have to test every single horse to make sure they are not above the allowed dosage for fair competition.
They have already spent 1.8 million euros keeping the sport clean but they will now have to spend more on testing and vets to make sure misuse doesnt occur.
At least before everyone competiting knew where they stood-there was zero-tolerance on the drug. Now how easy would it to say oh well i didnt realise i couldnt put that much in.
its argued that a horse that had colic should be able to compete because it needed it and it wasnt to mask lameness. However, they had to draw a line somewhere.

Apparantly the dosage is enough to be performance enhancing. it will allow horses that should be retired/or lame to continue competing. Not only does that completely contradict everything the FEI says about the spirit of competition and so on. It means horses winning on bute, will be selected for breeding. This means that top performance horses are being breed with possible Hereditary faults.
Fractures also produce mild lameness, what happens if horse is put on bute then goes to do x-country on a fracture!!
X-country is not as demanding as it used to be with the tracks and roads and steeple chasing taken out of the equation, so why should a horse be allowed to compete with bute in its system?
Also what about the buying and selling of horses? You could get a top-priced eventer vetted and it will have bute in its system. The owner will say well we went to a competition at the weekend. it may have another problem??
legalising bute will make everything more complicated and open to abuse.
 
Wow! To be honest I'm quite honored and very thankful!
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Lots of thanks to the ones responsible for this site for supporting us!
Also a big "Thank you" to the ones who have already signed. I noticed a lot of english names in the list
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Wow! To be honest I'm quite honored and very thankful!
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Lots of thanks to the ones responsible for this site for supporting us!
Also a big "Thank you" to the ones who have already signed. I noticed a lot of english names in the list
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Signed today.
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