FEI Yellow Cards / Disciplinaries

ihatework

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Bored on a Friday and opening a discussion on something that has been bugging me for a while.

FEI disciplinary proceedings, and the consistent application of, both within a discipline and inter-discipline.

Up to date list here:
https://inside.fei.org/fei/your-role/athletes/warning-cards

My observations - Eventing disciplines their riders far more extensively than any other equine sport. Are eventers inherently worse for breaking the rules or abusing their horses? By the nature of the sport I’d imagine there is far more opportunity to unintentionally break the rules or get things a bit wrong. But even so there are plenty of warnings for minor infringements and it’s not often seen in the other disciplines.

Consistency of applying the rules in eventing (my main sport of interest). We see that the Norwegian girl got a yellow card (deserved IMO), yet the Irish rider who was dangerously out of control at one point didn’t get warned. I’m not implying that I think they should/shouldn’t have as I’d sit on the fence on that, but if you look down the list there are a number of examples for dangerous riding/jumping the rope. Inconsistency is the point here.

Dressage (and I suppose SJ too) - very little in the way of disciplinaries. Are those disciplines squeaky clean?? You only have to watch some international warm ups to see some very uncomfortable sights that are completely ignored.

But WTF is going on with Endurance. Horses run into the ground. Behaviour akin to prison riots. Deep and known middle eastern abuse, cheating and the like.
It’s utterly disgusting and seriously undermines what is/should be a skilful equestrian discipline
 

ester

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Who was the irish rider who was dangerously out of control I might not have got to that bit of watching yet?

And the norwegian was the one stopped? Sorry I can't open the files as have to use windows 10 and office 2003 which don't like each other so they won't even open in 'old' mode.
 

claracanter

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Interesting. I can't open the file either at the moment. Out of interest, did Caroline Powell get one for jumping into the crowd at Burghley?
 

ihatework

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Interesting. I can't open the file either at the moment. Out of interest, did Caroline Powell get one for jumping into the crowd at Burghley?

No she didn’t. I’m pretty sure the Irish rider was Patricia Ryan and she was certainly more out of control than Caroline, only thankfully there was no deep crowd/picnicing happening.
I was pleased Caroline didn’t get one and on the fence about Patricia (?). I would have understood if she had got one but felt sorry for her. For me it’s the inconsistency - disciplining lesser known riders at non televised events but then not applying it at high profile.

For most things I think I would advocate the use of verbal warnings rather than immediate cards, with repeat verbal warnings upgrading to yellow.
 

ihatework

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Who was the irish rider who was dangerously out of control I might not have got to that bit of watching yet?

And the norwegian was the one stopped? Sorry I can't open the files as have to use windows 10 and office 2003 which don't like each other so they won't even open in 'old' mode.

Yes it was the Norwegian on the grey who was pulled up by officials. Again I feel very sorry for her as there is no doubt in my mind that it was bourne of inexperience and she is probably mortified. But that was a clear welfare error so the yellow needed to happen.
 

ester

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Thanks IHW :) I will have a look later, maybe when I am doing my endurance speeds v. vetting out analysis ;).

I am pleased though a little surprised Caroline avoided one.
 

Fiona

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Who was the irish rider who was dangerously out of control I might not have got to that bit of watching yet?

.

The Irish rider lost her reins because the horse stood off a brush skinny, and jumped the boundary string because there was a tight turn after the fence. Not out of control in my book.

Fiona
 

Sophire

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Caroline rode or was carted into the ropes and thus endangered the spectators. I can't see how she avoided getting some sort of infraction.

I agree, accident or not, it still happened, there were spectators just feet away and it was sheer luck the horse didn't end up on top of them.
Makes it all the worse when LL riders are being penalised. My thought process being they tend to act less harshly when the event is heavily spectated or televised, even if they are pros. Not sure the reasoning, but just the way it seems to be.

I do feel a little sorry for the Norwegian rider, although do have the feeling if you're riding at WEG, even if inexperienced, surely you can feel your horse hopping lame in walk. Although I imagine her adrenaline was up as much as the horses and maybe that has blurred judgement.
 

ihatework

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The Irish rider lost her reins because the horse stood off a brush skinny, and jumped the boundary string because there was a tight turn after the fence. Not out of control in my book.

Fiona

Of course she was out of control. She couldn’t turn the horse and once it had jumped the rope it took her quite a long time to regain control.

But for me that is not the same as negligent riding.

I wouldn’t wish to see these types of incident routinely carded unless it is obvious the horse has been out of control for a while before and not pulled up, neither of which was the case with PR or CP. But I would support verbal warning, just so that if it was a more regular occurrence for a combo then it can be dealt with.
 

SpringArising

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Caroline rode or was carted into the ropes and thus endangered the spectators. I can't see how she avoided getting some sort of infraction.

I agree, accident or not, it still happened, there were spectators just feet away and it was sheer luck the horse didn't end up on top of them.

She didn't ride into the ropes TP - did you watch what actually happened? She blatantly tried to turn and the horse just didn't get the memo - how is that her fault if she did her best to stop it? Unless you're The Hulk, or riding a robotic horse, of course accidents are going to happen. Under what reason should she be punished?
 

ihatework

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She didn't ride into the ropes TP - did you watch what actually happened? She blatantly tried to turn and the horse just didn't get the memo - how is that her fault if she did her best to stop it? Unless you're The Hulk, or riding a robotic horse, of course accidents are going to happen. Under what reason should she be punished?

SpringArising
525.1 here:
https://inside.fei.org/system/files/Updated rules 2018.pdf

As a bare minimum, applying FEI rules consistently, anyone jumping a rope should have a minimum of a recorded verbal warning.
 

Sophire

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She didn't ride into the ropes TP - did you watch what actually happened? She blatantly tried to turn and the horse just didn't get the memo - how is that her fault if she did her best to stop it? Unless you're The Hulk, or riding a robotic horse, of course accidents are going to happen. Under what reason should she be punished?

Read 'or carted' in TP's original post. Whilst we're all in agreement she didn't do it on purpose, it happened!
 

claracanter

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SpringArising
525.1 here:
https://inside.fei.org/system/files/Updated rules 2018.pdf

As a bare minimum, applying FEI rules consistently, anyone jumping a rope should have a minimum of a recorded verbal warning.

The rules are not applied consistently. James Somerville got a yellow card at Blair for jumping the rope. I saw it on the ERM live stream.He crossed the finish line and didn't pull up in time so got to the end of the chute and had to jump the string.
 

Red-1

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Crikey, someone got penalised for bad behaviour - late for XC. I think many people could be guilty of that - especially at the events where you only have 1/2 hour between SJ and XC and no groom!
 

ihatework

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Crikey, someone got penalised for bad behaviour - late for XC. I think many people could be guilty of that - especially at the events where you only have 1/2 hour between SJ and XC and no groom!

Not at FEI. You go on your start time unless you have FEI approval to go out of order.
 

teapot

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Crikey, someone got penalised for bad behaviour - late for XC. I think many people could be guilty of that - especially at the events where you only have 1/2 hour between SJ and XC and no groom!

FEI you MUST go at your start time, no ifs, buts, maybes or getting your mate to put your number down.


In terms of the Caroline Powell incident, surely unless the ground jury are told by the fence judges that they think something dangerous happened, it won't get up the chain to be reviewed and penalised? The judge at that fence would know it wasn't deliberate and she had no choice in the matter and perhaps accepted it. 4* judges are hugely expeirenced when it comes to making those decisions, that's why they're there.
 
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ihatework

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FEI you MUST go at your start time, no ifs, buts, maybes or getting your mate to put your number down.


In terms of the Caroline Powell incident, surely unless the ground jury are told by the fence judges that they think something dangerous happened, it won't get up the chain to be reviewed and penalised? The judge at that fence would know it wasn't deliberate and she had no choice in the matter and perhaps accepted it. 4* judges are hugely expeirenced when it comes to making those decisions, that's why they're there.

The riders are observed the whole way round. It wouldn’t be a fence judge to make that call.
 

Turitea

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What concerns me is the number of warning cards already issued in the youth section of showjumping.
Well, and endurance under FEI rules can only be called a joke, as the FEI seems to be unable to enforce or even apply it own rules.
 

Honey08

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Caroline rode or was carted into the ropes and thus endangered the spectators. I can't see how she avoided getting some sort of infraction.

Bit shocked to see the pro I used on the list :eek3:

To me though, Caroline's going through the rope would've been a strange thing to give a yellow card for (yes, I know it's a rule) because to me you should reflect on your riding after a yellow card - you've ridden badly. Whereas, from what I saw, Caroline's round was fine apart from that few seconds post landing at that fence. It was almost like there wasn't enough room in the area for any errors - that part of the course is quite steep and twisty and goes from dark to light, plus the crowd are quite close. Perhaps it was even partially down to the course design, that particular error.. (I do agree though that she wasn't right in the way she never made any mention of the people she almost hit or said sorry). Generally speaking I wouldn't have said she'd been out of control or dangerous apart from that couple of seconds, it was a bit of a freak accident.. Compared to when Mary King got her ban on King Joules at Bramham, well that horse was too strong for her and a bit scary to watch, so I could understand more.
 

MagicMelon

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The Irish rider lost her reins because the horse stood off a brush skinny, and jumped the boundary string because there was a tight turn after the fence. Not out of control in my book.

Fiona

This totally, it was a nasty tight turn after the fence so really dont see how she was out of control bar the fact she'd simply lost her reins on a steep downhill with a right angled turn straight after. I actually think the course design is bad! The roping should allow for exactly this sort of thing - its like they're trying to let the public get as close as possible which is now causing issues for the riders.

I dont believe eventers are the cruelest, I actually think far more nastiness happens in dressage and pure SJ (we dont even need to mention endurance), but I think eventing is more high profile, more less horsey people would watch eventing than say dressage so they have to be seen to be being strict about stuff.

Endurance, I believe its all because of the money. The main sponsors also sponsor many other equestrian sports (Meydan Arena in the eventing for example) so IMO the FEI cant afford to upset major sponsors too much... The UAE even "donated" $5 million to make the tracks wider for the endurance at WEG, which plays to their fast riding tactics. Obviously this is horrifically wrong, but money is always going to be a huge factor.
 
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TGM

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Dressage (and I suppose SJ too) - very little in the way of disciplinaries. Are those disciplines squeaky clean?? You only have to watch some international warm ups to see some very uncomfortable sights that are completely ignored.

I do wonder whether one reason that eventing is so hot on issuing disciplinaries is that is there is far more risk of horse or rider fatalities in eventing than there is in dressage or showjumping. Hence issuing warnings/cards for any incidents that might compromise safety.
 
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Racing has a whole different set of rules and jockeys can get anything from a warning to a 30 ban and ££££'s in a fine. Even a days ban is costing a jockey. You could ride, on average, 5 horses at any race meeting. That's about £800 in wages lost per day at the course for a ban.

Show jumping and dressage are much worse as literally any Tom duck or Harry can rock up and attempt to do something with their horse.
 
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