Fighting Labrador Bitches

[millimoo]

My friend has 4 labs - granny, mum and two sisters. All are very even tempered, well socialised dogs. However she has a problem with the sisters fighting:
They have all been breeding bitches in the past, and the sisters are 7yrs & 7 1/2 ys respectively (the older of the two was spayed 12 months ago).
They had a few episodes 18 months ago, and she kept them muzzled in each others presence and it all settled down and they've lived amicably for a while.
She was on the yard the other day, and the yard owners dogs kicked off, and her two sisters then layed into each other and it took two people to seperate them.
The younger bitch will instigate it, but the other fights back and they're equally matched in size and temperament.
They've subsequently had a huge fight at home tonight (blood and fur) which took her a while to seperate as she was on her own.
She's very experienced, and recognises the signs, and can usually nip anything in the bud, but she's now seriously considering re-homing one - blaming herself for having two bitches of similar age.
I understand bitches will hold grudges, but wondered if anyone has any suggestions for seperating them, and any ideas for sorting this out - she sounded pretty resigned tonight, but I know a lot of you have a lot of experience - and you never know (wishful thinking on my part probably)

Thanks in advance - no matter how negative

 

[CAYLA]

A dog fight is a sure fire way to start of a frenzie and unbalance a previouly settled issue..there is nothing to add other than if she is confident enough to deal with the issues and reprimand accordingly, then she can work with the issue whislt she is present and seperate with crates when she is not there for safety, if not then she will have to go with rehome, they are not exactly in their prime, so it's a harsh option, if she does go with rehome she hould neuter and do what is neccesary to secure a good home.
IMO if the owner has not the abiltiy or confidence to deal with the issue, then there really is little hope, and bitch fights are a hard one to tackle at the best of times.
Edited to say......to answer your original question, I persoanlly seperate myself and step in the reprimand the initiator or simply both if the fight is in full flow, my mouth, my strength and reprimanding the dog into submission, I never sperate into seperate rooms but do make the dogs remain apart in the same room with me in the middle, I would not however recommend that unless the person was experienced and capable, as if not the dog will simply pick up on your fear and simply carry on fighting or worse said person may get bitten in the mean time.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I do agree it would be a tall order to rehome a bitch of this age. And agree bitches are, well, bitches!

I step in before the fight has had a chance to kick off, as mentioned, you can see the signs, I use my voice, gesture, noise and if it has kicked off already, wade in and start cutting off air supplies

but obviously that is not ideal for your Mum.
I do put the instigator or the aggressor out for a period and let the situation diffuse and if they come back in ballsy, then they are out again.

Someone needs to keep a careful eye on them and echo Cayla, nerves and stress on behalf of the owner will compound the situation.

Bloody women!

 

[millimoo]

Thanks guys, really value your comments.....
She's definitely not scared of them, although admits she was tired having had a bad day at work, and i'm guessing they have probably picked up on that.
She's not afraid to wade in, and I know she shoved both of them into the submission position and then put a muzzle on the instigator and they were then fine - for now.
I've offered to have one to give her some breathing space (I have a very layed back, submissive daughter of the spayed bitch) but she doesn't think that will help.
As for rehoming, she won't do it lightly, and would spay her first - she has lots of lab breeder contacts and friends who would have her (she already has the offer of a home with a friend)
Hopefull she can just keep a lid on it - she resolved it before, so assume like you say, 'women'.
My bitch is an absolute angel in comparison

 

[CorvusCorax]

Why did I say 'your Mum'?

Sorry!

We sent our younger female back to her breeder for a few months after an horrific fight and it did seem to settle when she got back but we did watch her like a hawk. Breeder took a litter off her, not that it make one difference to her character, she was a crap mum and tried to take a chunk out of one of her baby daughters......anyhoo!

If there is somewhere were one of the bitches can go either for breathing space or even a retirement home if things get worse, that would probably be a good option.

Just tell her to be careful with those dominance rolls, if feelings are running high they are not always the safest thing to do IMO.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

As others it seems, I've always heard that if two dogs in the same home begins to fight it is difficult but if two bitches in the same home begins to fight it is so much worse. I've also heard that it is more likely that they fight if they are of the same breed and similar age.


However as I think Cayla described herself, sorry if this is wrong, I also have the attitude that if my bitches wants to fight they have to walk over my dead body first before they are able to get to each other. But this far, at the very most I've only had a few minor grumbles in my earlier years of dog owning, so I can only imagine how I would feel if I was in your friends situation with my bitches.

I know that Cayla and some others uses the method of treating all dogs in the family as equals (but still below the humans) and does not rank one dog higher than the other, as long as it works for you/them, that method is good.

I uses the method of that I do rank them, they are usually treated equal but my first bitch gets to do things first and if there is any grumbles, then when I step in to end it, I do it in such a way that it shows that I favour the one that I've given higher rank. But like Cayla, I don't do time out's, they better not try anything again after I've stepped in and ended something or I will see that as a direct challenge of my authority...




But to get back to your friend, when it first began around 18 months ago, can your friend think of anything that changed back then? Such as less physical exercise, less training were they needed to use their brains, other things in life going on so they got less attention at home, other dogs in the family being temporarily unhealthy etc?

Why was one of them spayed 12 months ago, was it for other reasons or to try and stop the fights/calm down the situation? Either way, also spaying the other sister seems like an obvious first thing to try.

Has something changed recently? See the list above about less physical exercise, spending less time with them etc? Is it possible that there is something going on with one of them regarding their health, that the other dog have picked up on but it has not yet become obvious to the owner?



I think it is fully understandably if she feels overwhelmed by the situation and I hope that I have not given people the impression that I think that if she only was a strong enough leader she would end this because that is not how I truly think. I think it can help if you're a strong leader but I know that sometimes that does not change anything.

 

[k9h]

Way do the girls get such a bad rep!?

I have been involved with a few packs. It has nearly always been the dogs that want to have a fight.

In the bitches there will be full litter sibblings (upto 8), their Mothers, G Mothers & even GG Moothers plus Aunties! Anywhere from 20-40 bitches in one lodge. Never a wrong word or growl.

The Human is the top dog always.

I remember 2005 Great Yorkshire show there was the grand parade of hounds, 8 different packs in the grand arena at once. All the hounds ended up as one great big pack. So your talking 200ish hounds (all entire, dogs & bitches). Not one hound growled at another!

Anyway sorry got rambling there!

I have been in the vicinity of a couple of pet dog fights (they were dogs not bitches)
One I had luckily just filled a giant water bucket for horse owner had been gardening & had thick gloves on. Lab wet for GSD throat (had done it before & nearly ripped it out).
Owner tried to seperate I Yelled "Move" & chuced the water out the bucket at them. Which hit with such force it seperated them. Then jumped in before lab could reattach.
A good bollocking does not go amiss I am affraid.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Oh I agree, I am a master bollocker (wow, that sounds wrong

) but in my opinion, bitch fights are always worse and of course, where the term comes from for humans

Hounds are a different breed altogether

in so many ways.
I have had my own problems with a dog-aggressive dog, of course, but he is predictable. Females IME tend to be a bit more hard to read in terms of when they are going to go.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Well I forgot something when I wrote my first reply, that according to what I've heard, it is much more rare for two bitches to seriously want to hurt each other but when it does happen, that is when it is so much worse.

 

[millimoo]

Thanks again all.....
She's kept them apart all weekend.
She's a part time breeder who has one litter a year - all dogs are in the house, and foremost are family pets.
The elder bitch was spayed as she had decided she found her last litter harder to deliver and decided to retire her - in fact doing the maths she must be approaching 9 as my lab was one of the last litter and she's just reached 2 yrs old.
Anyhoo, all her dogs are super fit, are out twice a day (at power walking pace) and out for hours at the weekend. They go to the yard where her horse is too - although she changed yards about 8 months ago - funnily enough 18 months before that was after a yard move, but the fighting didn't start straight away on that occasion either??? i'll mention it to her though.
The only thing that is different (and I didn't mention) is the younger bitch had a litter 7 months ago and she kept one of the bitch puppies as she had decided it would be her last litter too due to age and wanted to keep her lineage. The puppy was fully weaned and seperated by 5 weeks of age, and periodically had time with her mum, but mostly with Aunt, Grannie and great grannie - although theyre all together now (maybe that's having some bearing, but I don't think so as it happened before without puppies in the mix).
I'll let you know what happens, she really is very experienced and fundamentally feels they are just too close in age... hence blaming herself.
But you've definitely provided food for thought......

 

[FinnishLapphund]

It does not have to be the following way but, during the first time in a new territory/yard rank probably stays the same because they are too busy evaluating the new surrounding, potential dangers etc. Then once they begin to feel at home at the new place, someone of them might begin to question if the rank that they had at their old place should apply to the new territory...



I've heard that the most likely time to have fights among bitches in a flock, is a few months after that one of them have had puppies. This far the explanation I've heard to that, is that they think it has to do with that amongst wolves usually only the highest ranked bitch have puppies but they will try to wait with getting into any rank fights until the puppies are a few months old, when the puppies are less vulnerable.

Whether all puppies are sold or whether some stays in the flock doesn't need to be relevant, the brood bitch knows she has had puppies and the other bitches will probably also know, whether it has to do with smell or behaviour or whatever. Sometimes they've had litters before without any problems but then one day due to other factors also being involved, it suddenly does matter that one of them have had a litter.

If I got the chronology correct, last time one of them had a litter, the other bitch had been spayed? Usually spaying one doesn't causes any problem in the flock, rather the other way around, but if it is a change compared to how it was the next last time one of them had a litter, perhaps it can have had some affect on disturbing the balance between them...




I know that dog owners can move house and change which place they regularly visits without it ever causing any problems amongst their dogs, that breeders are able to have litters without it ever causing any problems amongst their bitches but sometimes, with some dogs/bitches, it can cause problems.
Just as that some can have dogs of similar age and of the same breed without any problems, sometimes it do causes problems.

One could compare it with chocolate, some people can eat a bar of chocolate without getting pimples but if I eat more than a small amount of chocolate I do get pimples, some people that got pimples when they ate chocolate as teenagers, can eat it without problems as adults but I got pimples from eating chocolate both as teenager and as an adult. So, chocolate can cause pimples but it need not do so, with time can it also change if it causes pimples or not.



Maybe she can't pinpoint any cause for why these fights flared up, maybe she can find a mix of causes, but either way I don't think she should put all the blame on herself because they are too close in age, if it was only down to that, why did it only begin less than 2 years ago, after all they were just as close in age 5 years ago?