Fined for not wearing hi-viz?

Yes I see the victim blaming thing quite a bit too, I don't quite understand why that is seen to be the case just to make everyone a bit safer cheaply and with minimal effort.
It isn't about it being used for your own protection, there is a wider issue. If I were interested in personal protection I would be pushing for everyone to wear riding/cycle helmets, but if you fall off you affect yourself no one else. If someone didn't see you because of an error on their part there is the potential for multiple people to be involved in an accident. People make errors, people drive without due attention if people can do something to encourage them to take note and attract their attention I struggle to see that as a bad thing. It gives extra seconds, it isn't going to prevent all accidents and I don't think anyone is suggesting it would! Sadly for all road users including drivers no one is infallible.

BTW vehicular escort doesn't work either :p people definitely don't see the horse then.

I think ironhorse was talking HSE regulations and subsequent payouts re ATVs.
 
popsdosh said:
This what happened with motorbikes and there is a phenomena that suggests that as something becomes the norm we get blind to it.
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The research on this questions people retrospectively how many people wearing hi vis they can remember seeing. That has no relevance to whether at the moment they were in sight their brain registered them a fraction of a second earlier than it did the people not wearing it. It's those fractions of seconds that save people's lives.

Where do you get your motor bike info from? There are very, very few bike riders on my roads who wear high vis, and I'm in a major biking area. (Matlock/Buxton/Leek/Ashbourne bikers' playground). No chance whatsoever of getting immune to it, we see so little of it.


I do wonder how so many of us of a certain age are still here to post. I have yet to see any figures that show since more hi vis is used actual accidents have fallen.
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If they have not increased it would be a miracle, since the number of cars on the road has increased exponentially since you and I first rode on the roads, PD.
 
ester said:
BTW vehicular escort doesn't work either :p people definitely don't see the horse then.

.
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Why is that any more stupid surely if people are warned there are horses round a bend they are less likely to come into contact than if meeting them with no warning as they cannot see them. Also to a certain extent a vehicle acts as a physical barrier.
We escort our combine for example with a vehicle as it as much as anything protects the combine from being damaged by the idiots on the road and you wont find anything more visble on the road. Yet I would love for you to ride in the cab and you would have your eyes opened by the stupidity of a high % of drivers who to be quite honest oblivious to what is going on around them.
 
People should take responsibility for themselves. If they don't then let Darwinism take it's course. The more people are told (forced) what to do to be safe the less they think for themselves.
PS I wear hiviz on my motorbike :p
 
popsdosh said:
Please point me to the law that says people riding ATVs have to wear helmets as it does not exist even on roads.
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Health and safety at work legislation
http://www.hse.gov.uk/agriculture/experience/atv-ppe.htm
http://press.hse.gov.uk/2015/farm-fined-after-serious-atv-injury/
http://www.hse.gov.uk/agriculture/experience/all-terrain-vehicles.htm

Effectively, If you want to kill yourself on a quad bike in your own time that's no problem, but if an employer does not take steps to ensure an employee wears a helmet HSE takes a dim view. Presumably it has insurance implications too for anyone found in breach of the regs.
 
popsdosh said:
Why is that any more stupid surely if people are warned there are horses round a bend they are less likely to come into contact than if meeting them with no warning as they cannot see them. Also to a certain extent a vehicle acts as a physical barrier.
We escort our combine for example with a vehicle as it as much as anything protects the combine from being damaged by the idiots on the road and you wont find anything more visble on the road. Yet I would love for you to ride in the cab and you would have your eyes opened by the stupidity of a high % of drivers who to be quite honest oblivious to what is going on around them.
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I was speaking from personal experience. It was happening because of extenuating circumstances, someone overtook the car and nearly went straight into the horse because they 'hadn't seen it'.

I am well aware as a horse rider, cyclist and driver of the stupidity of a high % of oblivious drivers, which is why I try and do everything I can to help them be less oblivious where possible
 
PaddyMonty said:
People should take responsibility for themselves. If they don't then let Darwinism take it's course. The more people are told (forced) what to do to be safe the less they think for themselves.
PS I wear hiviz on my motorbike :p
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Unfortunately darwinism isn't doing a great job right now, too much change too quickly for the best to out!
 
Yes including cyclists the number around here with minimal lights and headphones in who don't wear any hi vis who just blend into the trees is shocking
I actually turned round about 10 minutes into a hack once as I'd forgotten a tabard and felt almost as wrong as being hatless and didn't want to feel responsible if he got hit due to not being seen
 
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ironhorse said:
Health and safety at work legislation
http://www.hse.gov.uk/agriculture/experience/atv-ppe.htm
http://press.hse.gov.uk/2015/farm-fined-after-serious-atv-injury/
http://www.hse.gov.uk/agriculture/experience/all-terrain-vehicles.htm

Effectively, If you want to kill yourself on a quad bike in your own time that's no problem, but if an employer does not take steps to ensure an employee wears a helmet HSE takes a dim view. Presumably it has insurance implications too for anyone found in breach of the regs.
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Once again there are no regs that mandate the wearing of a helmet .

None of those examples show that it is mandatory to wear a helmet on a ATV most of the issues were around lack of training. As an employer I need to ensure that adequate training has been given and make sure a helmet is available should the employee wish to wear one. Which we do . No one here does as its their choice and the farm has covered their legal responsibilities the issue the HSE has problems with is because they are not a legal requirement on the road which is why they cannot force it.
 
I would be very surprised of your insurance company or the HSE would be happy with your stance of 'I provide it, they don't have to wear it' Popsdosh. Failing to wear PPE when required is a sackable offence. And your insurance company will, I'm pretty sure, take a very dim view of your employees failing to wear a helmet when on an ATV on farm land, a known high risk activity for head injuries.

Have you actually got it in writing from either of them that this is OK? If not, I think you are leaving yourself wide open to prosecution and being sued for damages in the event of an accident.
 
I'm far too old to be told what to wear, people should take responsibility for their own actions and with education most would see that wearing Hi Viz is sensible when riding on a road
Yard owners could take the lead and write into people contracts, no riding out from the yard without hat and Hi Viz

I watch drivers all the time on their mobile phones, eating sandwiches and even trying to read a map, no amount of laws, rules and regs will help them change their ways until they come a cropper in an accident and either maim or kill someone. Its no different to people riding out and their horses are not traffic aware (Not talking about an odd spook here) but some of the riders I pass don't seem to very sensible when on the road (Again not all riders) but I see some of them on their mobile

I was driving down a country road late at night only last week, it was pitch black and my headlights caught sight of something, it was a cyclist in dark clothes without lights, I've no idea if he made it home in one piece but he had a long pitch black road to navigate

I was brought up in an era where we left in the morning with our ponies for a day ride, no hat, mostly no saddle if heading for the beach and a few pennies in our jods for making an emergency phone call from a phone box or to buy sweets, I understand how things have changed over the years but do we all really need the law to change about what we wear and every aspect of our lives. Where is common sense? Even with a law change if people don't want to wear Hi Viz they won't and I don't see anytime soon the Hi Viz patrol police stopping riders to give them a fine or a talking to
 
pennyturner said:
Thank the lord. A voice of reason. This whole thread makes me want to scream. More rules, more restrictions. Jesus, it's 1984!
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I agree
But if we going down this route let's ban all riders with poor lower leg security and core balance from riding out and about because that's what keeps you in the saddle when your horse reacts to something .
All these threads focus on hi viz and ignore the fact if your position and reactions are poor you should not be out and about your own lack of ability and your own mistakes are far more dangerous to you and your horses than the traffic .
I see riders out and about all the that I would not let out of my paddock .
 
GS, you are so right. I might add to this the legion of owners who are so afraid of their horses that the horse is 'trained' to over-react to everything, such that they aren't safe to take anywhere.

Should have seen my vet's face when a friend started up a chainsaw near the two stallions I was having gelded last week, and neither of them flinched!
 
PaddyMonty said:
People should take responsibility for themselves. If they don't then let Darwinism take it's course. The more people are told (forced) what to do to be safe the less they think for themselves.
PS I wear hiviz on my motorbike :p
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I don't really care if people don't wear hi viz and get themselves killed by a car either riders, walkers or cyclists. It doesn't bother me in the slightest. If they haven't got the brains to use hi viz then as you say let Darwinism take it's course.
what does bother me however is the horse that also gets killed due to it's negligent rider or the child being pushed along by it's negligent parent or the dog that gets killed because it's owner is too lazy or conceited to wear hi viz .

it also bothers me that the driver may either get hurt physically or mentally having killed someone. All these innocent drivers, animals and children getting hurt do to someone's failure to make sure they can be seen as quickly as possible.

I drive round narrow country lanes with several horse riders. It is so much easier with the hi viz ones. You get just a few seconds longer to react which can make all the difference. It probably doesn't make much difference to me as a driver as I driver slowly enough but for other drivers that few seconds could make the difference between life and death.

I wear hi viz both on my horse and on my bike. Can anyone explain, other than vanity, why someone wouldn't wear hi viz? If you drive down a dark (overshadowed by trees) road which has little visibility in the daytime you put your lights on so everyone can see you. Why not do the same on a bike, walking or on a horse? It's not a question of fining people more of using common sense.
 
popsdosh said:
Well who should be prosecuted and fined then??
If you as a rider wish to use it for your own protection fine ! but get the reason straight! However please justify why it should be mandatory or are you trying to take the blame away from them and just passing it to the rider. I have two friends in wheelchairs both hit by cars travelling to fast on country lanes . They were both wearing Hi viz . it is only effective when the driver can actually see it and that very rarely is at the time accidents happen as they are most likely when travelling around bends to quick .most accidents on straight roads are caused by horses moving into traffic which is not a visibility issue but a rider control issue that no amount of hi viz will change . Maybe we should all have to ride out with a vehicle escort to warn other road users of horses ahead particularly when around bends.
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There are stupid drivers on the road and there a stupid riders on the road! Laws in general are aimed at curbing behaviours of those who haven't got the common sense to act in a way that doesn't endanger o have have negative impact on themselves or other people. Yes, I hate the whole nanny state thing but honestly when I see morons who don't see the effect their actions can have on other people I think society has gone passed common sense! There will always be accidents on the road but if the chance of a fine made a few more people wear hi-viz then maybe a few more accidents would be prevented. Obviously all us HHO users are responsible riders and wear it- same as we wear our seatbelts because it might just save our lives. But if it wasn't the law to wear a seatbelt how many wouldn't? It is a sad state of today's society that the risk of breaking a law and spending money on a fine forces us to act in a more sensible manner! It won't stop everyone, but it might just help prevent a few accidents where visibility was the issue that caused it
 
Goldenstar said:
All these threads focus on hi viz and ignore the fact if your position and reactions are poor you should not be out and about your own lack of ability and your own mistakes are far more dangerous to you and your horses than the traffic .
I see riders out and about all the that I would not let out of my paddock .
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whilst I agree with the principle of this many of us have a perfectly adequate position and good reactions. However you are still at the mercy of the driver. It is no good that I can perfectly control my horse and make him stand etc if the driver hasn't seen me quickly enough. I will still get hit!
 
Where would it end? The more responsibility that we take away from people to look after their own safety, the more people in general lose the ability to weigh up risk.

It's my choice to look like an illuminated Christmas tree when I hack out. I groan inwardly when I see people who choose to blend into the background.

When I was learning to drive, my instructor told me two things that I use every time I use the road (in whatever capacity)

- always assume that everyone else is an idiot and doesn't know how to drive/cycle/walk on a road without a pavement
- always ensure you can stop in half the distance you can see to be clear

We can educate our children, staff, trainees etc.

But ultimately, people have to take responsibility for their own actions.
 
ester said:
Which is fine if their own actions only have detrimental affects to them.
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I understand this, but just about everything we do can have a detrimental impact on others. So again, where would it end?

Compulsory body protectors and air vests for everything?
Horses on public roads being banned because horses are living creatures who can never be guaranteed not to spook and might injure an innocent passerby?
Compulsory bits because some think bitless isn't as safe?
 
paddy555 said:
I don't really care if people don't wear hi viz and get themselves killed by a car either riders, walkers or cyclists. It doesn't bother me in the slightest. If they haven't got the brains to use hi viz then as you say let Darwinism take it's course.
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This.

I ride out dressed up as Bertie Bassett, whilst in full control of my horse. I expect most other road users to be inattentive idiots. I am not often disappointed.
 
ycbm said:
I would be very surprised of your insurance company or the HSE would be happy with your stance of 'I provide it, they don't have to wear it' Popsdosh. Failing to wear PPE when required is a sackable offence. And your insurance company will, I'm pretty sure, take a very dim view of your employees failing to wear a helmet when on an ATV on farm land, a known high risk activity for head injuries.

Have you actually got it in writing from either of them that this is OK? If not, I think you are leaving yourself wide open to prosecution and being sued for damages in the event of an accident.
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Expert on HSE now it is not mandatory PPE to wear a helmet on an ATV it is to provide it if the worker wants it do you really think they wouldnt if it was mandatory. In all those examples before the enphasis was on the fact that the helmet was(or not)available to be worn not whether it was or not . HSE fully accepts there are occasions when it is indeed safer not to. Ive done the Courses and train Staff. NFU are completely happy with the approach regarding insurance
 
Of course the ultimate is just ban riding on the roads , Lets ban cars ,Stop people crossing roads that would cut down accidents overnight.
As said before I feel a lot of riders use Hi Viz as an excuse to pass responsibility for their inability to control their horse or indeed an even worse thing a total lack of being able to know what is going on beneath them in the horses head. I would like a pound for every time I have passed riders like a christmas tree with Hi Viz only for them to be talking away with somebody else taking no notice or on their mobile or texting or the best one on a hot day no hat. Hey im OK ive got hi Viz on so everybody else has no excuse not to give me loads of room if anything happens.
 
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Oh for goodness sake, we are talking about riders making an attempt to be seen when riding on the highway by wearing a bit of cheap hi viz. You can buy a tabard for a couple of quid and if it means any driver sees you more quickly, then how can that be a bad thing? Trouble is, I pass riders all the time, at all times of the day in all seasons, who frankly just disappear into the hedge. It is immaterial whether they have control of their horse or not, it's immaterial if car drivers are stupid or not, the plain fact is, if you wear hi viz, you give yourself and your horse a split second more of a chance of going home uninjured. I really don't understand the problem that people have with this, for me it's a complete no brainer but clearly for others it is not. I have no problem in fining riders who go out on the highway without hi viz, just as I don't with fining drivers that don't wear seatbelts and those that use phones etc etc. i'd love to live in a world where people just do the right thing, but I don't, sometimes they need help!
 
The police were stopping people on bikes who werent wearing hi viz or lights when it was nearing dusk the other night near the gym.was impressed something was being done, but clothing manufacturers could do so much more to make seasonal hi viz clothes like t-shirts, sweatshirts, yard coats that are hi viz and reflective so you wear them without thinking
 
Kaylum said:
The police were stopping people on bikes who werent wearing hi viz or lights when it was nearing dusk the other night near the gym.was impressed something was being done, but clothing manufacturers could do so much more to make seasonal hi viz clothes like t-shirts, sweatshirts, yard coats that are hi viz and reflective so you wear them without thinking
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they do, but you are forced to buy them!
 
those of us that drive are supposed to put our car lights on in poor visibility, how many drivers do not, even in fog? there are idiots everywhere and if i can make myself and my horse more visible to the idiots, why cant everyone? i have been wearing high vis for many years and was pleased to find that the YO at my new yard insists on everyone wearing it when hacking out, she has provided a few spare vests so there is no reason for not complying...after a few little grumbles everyone at our yard wears high vis now.....i was driving home along a narrow lane a couple of weeks ago on a foggy night and just about saw 2 joggers, they both were wearing dark clothing , i hope they made it home ok...if they had put a ben brown belt on it would have really helped and not caused them to get too hot...i also think it would help if cyclists wore it as well....
 
I read an interesting piece of research based on motorbikes rather than horses. The conclusion was that in SOME light conditions, against SOME coloured backgrounds, SOME hi viz colours made you more visible. In different conditions it might be dark colours that made you stand out more. Since light and background can change dramatically over the course of a few yards then I want some serious statistics produced before I accept being told what to wear or being fined.
 
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