Fined for not wearing hi-viz?

paddy555 said:
whilst I agree with the principle of this many of us have a perfectly adequate position and good reactions. However you are still at the mercy of the driver. It is no good that I can perfectly control my horse and make him stand etc if the driver hasn't seen me quickly enough. I will still get hit!
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That's not at all relevant to my post .
My post is about rider skills which in many cases are sadly lacking .
It's a given that it makes sense to wear hi viz .
 
I think it should be a law to wear it. There are arguments for why not, yes, such as its the persons right to be an idiot, where do you draw the line etc.

But I don't trust the majority of the general public enough to be able to make a reasonable decision on their own. You see it now, people going riding with no hi viz on, cycling with no helmet or hi viz, running with no hi viz. I almost hit a man when going round a corner because he was on the road running, in the dark, in all black. You can't fix stupid but you can at least make it visible.

Whenever I drive, I am always expecting the worst from people. I expect for people to be stupid and drive out in front of me, over take in a bad place, don't use their brakes to slow down, don't indicate etc. Its the only way to be safe and its worked so far, I have had no crashes. Near misses but thanks to my reactions we have both avoided death/injury.

There are too many people who cannot make an educated decision, who cannot be trusted to actually care about themselves or others, who cannot be relied upon to make a smart choice. Because of this, we have to impose laws upon people.

Let's face it, if we lived in a lovely world where everyone could be trusted to be sane, intelligent and actually think, we wouldn't need prisons would we?
 
rachk89 said:
I think it should be a law to wear it. There are arguments for why not, yes, such as its the persons right to be an idiot, where do you draw the line etc.

But I don't trust the majority of the general public enough to be able to make a reasonable decision on their own. You see it now, people going riding with no hi viz on, cycling with no helmet or hi viz, running with no hi viz. I almost hit a man when going round a corner because he was on the road running, in the dark, in all black. You can't fix stupid but you can at least make it visible.

Whenever I drive, I am always expecting the worst from people. I expect for people to be stupid and drive out in front of me, over take in a bad place, don't use their brakes to slow down, don't indicate etc. Its the only way to be safe and its worked so far, I have had no crashes. Near misses but thanks to my reactions we have both avoided death/injury.

There are too many people who cannot make an educated decision, who cannot be trusted to actually care about themselves or others, who cannot be relied upon to make a smart choice. Because of this, we have to impose laws upon people.

Let's face it, if we lived in a lovely world where everyone could be trusted to be sane, intelligent and actually think, we wouldn't need prisons would we?
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Then let's ban people who don't ride with a strong position it will save more lives .
 
Can you imagine how many fines would be made in Wickham or any travellers fair when they all jump on their horses with only shorts and a vest on occasions, none compliance with Hi Viz fine to be paid to the man on a black and white large horse wearing a vest........ or any random rider on any road....... rider not wearing Hi Viz, description of rider, tight trousers, boots and hard hat heading for the stables 3rd on the left down Roseberry Road, riding a brown horse, unable to hand her/him a notification of fine as made their getaway down a bridleway before I could go around the roundabout to apprehend them and give them their ticket

I'm just not sure how this can be enforced, it would end up just like no use of mobiles in cars unless hands free, no smoking in cars with children, no driving through puddles when pedestrians are nearby, not driving without a seatbelt, even cycling on a pavement which was once a pull over offence is now an unwritten non offence now as it just can't be enforced

I'd rather the police caught murderers, rapist or serious criminals and not spend their time worrying about what is or is not allowed to be worn on horseback, have you looked at school uniforms carefully? I see all these children walking along during darkness wearing navy blue, dark shoes and no Hi Viz, shall we fine the parents? Better to have a safety office or PCSO go along to the school for a general talk and let the children go home and moan to the parents, that generally works well. Pony club could do the same at camp or during meet ups during half term (Isn't that why children take their Riders Road Safety test, is Hi Viz mentioned during that test)
 
I think resources would be better spent concentrating on catching drivers who drive like dickheads. I.e. Speeding, drinking, using their mobile phone, driving up the backside of the car in front and generally using their cars as a weapon.
 
Make it compulsory for all cars to have "black box" recorders that store the last minute of video, car speed and braking data leading up to a collision, that can only be read out by the police in the event of an accident. That would make many motorists drive more carefully, knowing any poor driving will be on record. The technology exists today, so why not?
 
fburton said:
Make it compulsory for all cars to have "black box" recorders that store the last minute of video, car speed and braking data leading up to a collision, that can only be read out by the police in the event of an accident. That would make many motorists drive more carefully, knowing any poor driving will be on record. The technology exists today, so why not?
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My husband has a dashcam and a relative who owns a haulage company fits camera's and logs on each lorry, you cannot believe how many near misses are recorded with cyclists, horse riders, loose dogs or dog walkers and children who almost look and act as if they are playing chicken on the roads, mind you an unbelievable amount of bad driving is also recorded

Just recently someone posted a film of a driver happily driving along using a mobile, they posted it on-line as the authorities were not remotely interested in it so it became trial by internet
 
The problem with a high viz world ,road signs ,markings etc ,is that you cannot see into the darkness and that is where the accident is coming from.
 
We should all be driving with caution, at a speed appropriate to the road/conditions, and not be distracted (phones, passengers) such that we have time to see and to react to any hazard we find in the road. Are deer going to have to be kitted out with Hi viz too?
 
Dubsie said:
We should all be driving with caution, at a speed appropriate to the road/conditions, and not be distracted (phones, passengers) such that we have time to see and to react to any hazard we find in the road. Are deer going to have to be kitted out with Hi viz too?
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There was a guy who was killed on his bike the other year the woman who knocked him off the bike was arrested she was later released when it was confirmed he was riding at dusk wearing dark clothing and nobody could see him.
 
Kaylum said:
There was a guy who was killed on his bike the other year the woman who knocked him off the bike was arrested she was later released when it was confirmed he was riding at dusk wearing dark clothing and nobody could see him.
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And hi viz probably wouldn't have helped either. In those conditions he needed reflective.
 
I actually believe that technology is contributing to accidents on the road, if you sit in a queue of traffic and just watch, you see drivers messing with their sat nav, kids in the back of cars watching TV's, loads of drivers on their phones or texting, some drivers seem to think being surrounded by the metal casing of a vehicle makes them immune from the world

My vet arrived one morning rather shaken, he had witnessed an accident, he rushed to call the emergency services and help the woman driver of one of the cars, he said her phone was by her feet and it was obvious she had been using it whilst driving

The relatives of this family probably won't give a damn if horse riders wear Hi Viz but I expect they would like to see a total ban on use of mobile phones whilst driving
http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/14...crash_which_killed_mother_and_three_children/
 
Cecile said:
Can you imagine how many fines would be made in Wickham or any travellers fair when they all jump on their horses with only shorts and a vest on occasions, none compliance with Hi Viz fine to be paid to the man on a black and white large horse wearing a vest........ or any random rider on any road....... rider not wearing Hi Viz, description of rider, tight trousers, boots and hard hat heading for the stables 3rd on the left down Roseberry Road, riding a brown horse, unable to hand her/him a notification of fine as made their getaway down a bridleway before I could go around the roundabout to apprehend them and give them their ticket

I'm just not sure how this can be enforced, it would end up just like no use of mobiles in cars unless hands free, no smoking in cars with children, no driving through puddles when pedestrians are nearby, not driving without a seatbelt, even cycling on a pavement which was once a pull over offence is now an unwritten non offence now as it just can't be enforced

I'd rather the police caught murderers, rapist or serious criminals and not spend their time worrying about what is or is not allowed to be worn on horseback, have you looked at school uniforms carefully? I see all these children walking along during darkness wearing navy blue, dark shoes and no Hi Viz, shall we fine the parents? Better to have a safety office or PCSO go along to the school for a general talk and let the children go home and moan to the parents, that generally works well. Pony club could do the same at camp or during meet ups during half term (Isn't that why children take their Riders Road Safety test, is Hi Viz mentioned during that test)
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As said previously it is unlikely to be enforced much, getting cyclists to use lights is hardly enforced either but it would hopefully increase numbers. Are those children walking along the road? :eek3:, not everyone gets to make it to pony club so I am not sure that is going to solve the issue.

Mike007 said:
The problem with a high viz world ,road signs ,markings etc ,is that you cannot see into the darkness and that is where the accident is coming from.
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Mike I have read your post several times and still can't quite understand what you mean, I suspect it is a good point so could you clarify?

millikins said:
And hi viz probably wouldn't have helped either. In those conditions he needed reflective.
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It is pretty rare that hi vis comes without any form of reflective addition these days. I have a collection of t-shirts, long sleeved tops, soft shell jackets and tabards all of which have reflective strips somewhere.
 
Dubsie said:
We should all be driving with caution, at a speed appropriate to the road/conditions, and not be distracted (phones, passengers) such that we have time to see and to react to any hazard we find in the road. Are deer going to have to be kitted out with Hi viz too?
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Should, it doesn't happen though.
Deer tend not to mooch along the side of the road but plenty of reflective collars etc for the ponies and cattle that do.
 
ester said:
As said previously it is unlikely to be enforced much, getting cyclists to use lights is hardly enforced either but it would hopefully increase numbers. Are those children walking along the road? :eek3:, not everyone gets to make it to pony club so I am not sure that is going to solve the issue.



Mike I have read your post several times and still can't quite understand what you mean, I suspect it is a good point so could you clarify?
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I think what Mike maybe talking about is similar to the point I made you can have as much Hi Viz as you like but if the driver has not seen you it really offers no protection and arguably this is the cause of most accidents. For example being even on a slight bend . You very rarely hear of people being hit on a straight piece of road. That is why drivers should be more responsible and drive to expect any eventuality.
I dont if you are aware there is research done by ins companies that shows that as cars have become safer for the occupants actual collission speeds have increased because the drivers know they can survive so the extra speed or lack of attention will have less impact on them.
 
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I think what Mike means is that, like I said, on a site where everything is hi vis your brain starts to only notice things that are hi vis, and everything else becomes invisible. So with a rider in a hi vis jacket you may notice them but you don't fully register the horse underneath....?

As for deer, they most certainly do hang around beside roads and cross them. There are a huge amount of accidents where I live every year from people colliding with deer.
 
Haven't read the whole thread, so this may have been answered earlier.

My concern with enforcing a hi vis law/fining for not wearing hi vis would be with how it would be enforced and what would be deemed not enough hi vis, as well as how insurance companies would use it.

Someone wearing a hi vis tabard, hat band and exercise sheet may think they have enough hi vis, only to be involved in an accident and horse is killed to then find insurance refuse to pay as they didn't have lights/boots/more hi vis and insurance say they didn't have adequate hi vis.

Similarly, how do you enforce how much hi vis is needed? If the law says must wear hi vis, does that mean it is up to the individual to decide if you have enough? Could you be fined in one area for being deemed to not have enough, whilst in another you'd have been told you had enough hi vis on?

I do think that something needs to change, and all road users need to be encouraged to use hi vis, but I also do think that the driving tests themselves need to change. Having done my theory and test recently, in the test books horses are covered in the one page on 'large animals' and I'm fairly sure all it says is 'pass horses and all other large animals slowly and with at least one cars distance' without outlining the risks and why. I know it's not common to see horses on the roads in a lot of places, but imo, given all the focus on dealing with other road users and how to manage hazards on the roads, horses also need to be discussed more as part of the theory test at least. I did my theory 3 times, and the only time horses appeared were in the hazard test as a hazard you had to click for, and even then, they only appeared on one of the tests.
 
ester said:
Should, it doesn't happen though.
Deer tend not to mooch along the side of the road but plenty of reflective collars etc for the ponies and cattle that do.
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You haven't driven along the A82 over Rannoch Moor, have you? The deer near the Kingshouse Hotel are semi-tame and don't have any fear of cars or people, so they mooch along the road and will amble across it, oblivious to cars flying along at 60mph or more. Last month we had to slam on the brakes and swerve around a doe, which wandered into the lane and stood there like, "What? I'm walkin' here!" Luckily we were driving around 50-55mph, as it was dark and the deer are a known problem. Had we been going at the speed limit, we wouldn't have been able to dodge that deer. The Kingshouse should put hi-viz on those bloody things, as they feed them and habituate them so they don't spook away from cars.
 
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A better law would be to make it illegal to ride (horse or bicycle) without a head cam; thus ensuring that dangerous driving can be reported and the perpetrators punished rather than the victims.
 
I feel it is important to realise just how visible hi viz (or in my case reflective strips) are. I had a potentially nasty incident on my way to work several years ago. It was 6.40 am, dark, country lane double track, bends but on a commuter route. I came to a bend and saw something that didn't make sense. Only a glimpse but it turned out to be a reflective strip on the back of a outdoor rug. Got round the bend and found 2 horses (one a TB) in the road having escaped from their field quite happily trotting down to the main Devon expressway. 4 lines of fast moving traffic doesn't bear thinking about!

I must have been fated on that road because a few years earlier a small yard exercised it's racehorses in the dark early morning. After several days of crawling along wondering which bend I was going to find them round I got fed up and rang the police. A few days later I met them with their newly purchased hi viz. Could see them a mile off.
 
Caol Ila said:
You haven't driven along the A82 over Rannoch Moor, have you? The deer near the Kingshouse Hotel are semi-tame and don't have any fear of cars or people, so they mooch along the road and will amble across it, oblivious to cars flying along at 60mph or more. Last month we had to slam on the brakes and swerve around a doe, which wandered into the lane and stood there like, "What? I'm walkin' here!" Luckily we were driving around 50-55mph, as it was dark and the deer are a known problem. Had we been going at the speed limit, we wouldn't have been able to dodge that deer. The Kingshouse should put hi-viz on those bloody things, as they feed them and habituate them so they don't spook away from cars.
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No I haven't. I haven't known any that would do the mooching along so it is interesting to know that some do, but also that they are managed deer.

The list for forest ponies is particularly bad at the moment, they also note which are wearing collars.
http://www.nfed.co.uk/news/newspage.shtml

You are never going to see everything unfortunately but those that are in a position to make themselves more seen should IMO. There is a dashcam vid of a grey forester run out into a car today.


sasquatch I think how much has to be defined by area.
 
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millikins said:
A better law would be to make it illegal to ride (horse or bicycle) without a head cam; thus ensuring that dangerous driving can be reported and the perpetrators punished rather than the victims.
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the head cam wouldn't be much use though to the dead horse, dead rider or dead cyclist. The perpetrators could be punished but it would be a bit late for the victims!!
 
millikins said:
A better law would be to make it illegal to ride (horse or bicycle) without a head cam; thus ensuring that dangerous driving can be reported and the perpetrators punished rather than the victims.
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Why an earth should I be compelled to wear one of those infernal things .
 
millikins said:
A better law would be to make it illegal to ride (horse or bicycle) without a head cam; thus ensuring that dangerous driving can be reported and the perpetrators punished rather than the victims.
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I am definitely not wearing a head cam until there is adequate proof that it doesn't compromise the integrity of my helmet
 
millikins said:
A better law would be to make it illegal to ride (horse or bicycle) without a head cam; thus ensuring that dangerous driving can be reported and the perpetrators punished rather than the victims.
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No no no.
There is a very good reason anyone doing motorsport isn't allowed to have one fitted to them or a helmet, likewise in BE.
Helmets are designed to slide on impact, not have things sticking off them to stop momentum.
 
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