First foals - size question.

[Spot_the_Risk]

Hypothetical question really, but it's been bugging me!

I've heard that first foals can be smaller than their subsequent siblings. My mare is out of a 15.1hh maiden, and by a 14.2hh Section D, we had assumed that the offspring would make about 15hh, but she's firmly stopped at just over 14hh, not the end of the world for us, but definitely a disappointment.

The dam is no longer with us and just had the one foal. If the 14hh mare was bred would it be likely that her foal would mature smaller than she is, no matter what size the stallion is (within reason of course!)? Does it hold that the first foal is always smaller, and therefore if a breeder was trying to keep a breeding line going, would they ever breed from a first foal, or would it be sold on for non-breeding purposes?

Hopefully someone can shed some light on this!

 

[the watcher]

I don't think it necessarily follows that the first foal will be unusually small, there are so many factors that affect each pregnancy and the way the foal grows on after delivery

 

[luckilotti]

I dont know the definate answer to your question but....
I had a maiden mare (13hh) covered by a youngish stallion who was approx 13hh also, at 3 years old the resulting foal is approx 13.3. I know both the sire and dam were considered 'small' considering their parentage, but even so, she was a 1st foal and has certainly ended up taller - so maybe its all just down to the individuals?

 

[Maesfen]

Sometimes it can be a throw back to the parent's parents too not just because it is a first foal so it helps if you know what's behind the parents if that makes sense.
Kitty is a first foal, by a 16.3 out of a 16 hh maiden mare (both TBs) ATM she's nearly 15.3 at three; I don't think she'll get much bigger but quite happy to be proved wrong later. The mare's 2nd foal by a 16.2 stallion seems to be growing well and the owner thinks she'll get over 16 hands.
While Harry who is by a small (14.3)TB x short dumpy cob (14.3) was thought to be a show cob in the making like all of his siblings (think she had had 5 or 6 already) but nobody told him; he's now a strapping 16.1 hunter type; totally unexpected except that the stallion has larger size genes behind him which makes Harry a bit of a throw back!

Basically, with horses, especially those whose full parentage isn't known - and even if it is - nothing is set in stone.

 

[Thistle]

I know of 2 horses, not sure if the older one is a first foal. He is a strapping 18hh hunter, she is few years younger, much more delicate prize winning show hack at 15.2. Full siblings.

 

[cblover]

I'm no breeding expert and I too, like you, have always thought that the first foal is usually smaller than subsequent ones but.......

My yearling's mam is a 15.2hh clyde x cob and his dad is a 15.1hh traditional cob and he's huge! I think he's on course to make at least 15.3 maybe bigger and he's a first foal. Plus I have a friend who owns a fab roan coloured registered dales and he's way over the max height. He's 15.2 now and both his parents were 13.2hh! Not sure what happened there! LOL

 

[amy_b]

From what I have seen/experienced, the first foals can be smaller, but they seem to carry the size genes of their parents.
My mare is 15.2, sire 15.2, her first foal is now 14.3 as a yearling?!!
we were crossing our fingers he would make 16h but it looks like he'l easily make that!
the stallion is known to throw larger horses, I presume he is the product of larger stock, our mare is bred big but didnt make that size for whatever reason

 

[GinnieRedwings]

I think the more you "outcross" and the less reliable the result.

What I mean is if you breed a 16.2hh full papered Trakhener to a 16.2hh full papered Trakhener, you are very likely to get a very typey 16.2hh horse, first foal, 2nd foal, 15th foal... I picked the Trakhener because it's a very "fixed" breed but I expect you would get the same sort of result with Arabs, Welsh cobs and same-type TBs, to name a few.

If you outcross to a completely different breed, then anything could happen. A bit like with dog breeding - in the same litter of boxer x border collie (completely off the top of my head - not sure anyone would ever do such a thing except accidentally ), you could have puppies that look like a collie, some that look like a boxer and anything in between.

That is the theory, anyway. In breeding anything can happen and throwbacks do occur, even from very much further back than just the grandparents or greatgrandparents.

My own experience of multiple breeding to the same mare is as follows:

15hh unknown breeding TBx type mare - 1st foal to unknown stallion (bought in foal from gypsies, pretty sure from udders etc, she was a maiden) threw a 15hh filly absolute carbon copy of Mum. 2nd Foal to 16hh coloured TB x Cob stallion, a coloured colt who finished at 15.3hh and looking very similar to dad.

Maiden 16.2hh ISH mare (Rich Rebel x Clover Hill) threw a filly by Garuda K (16.2hh Trak), carbon copy of dad, now 3 years old & 16.2hh - should grow another inch or so. 2nd foal by Bon Balou (16.3hh Balou du Rouet x Argentinus), now 15.2hh at 14 months old and I expect him to make 16.3hh - so very consistent there despite the "outcrosses" to European WBs.

Maiden 15.3hh ISH-type mare of unknown breeding, imported from Ireland, has had 4 foals by the same stallion (Suma's Murphy's Law, RID, 16.1hh) and got:
1- Huge chestnut colt as a maiden - now 5 years old and 17hh
2- Huge chestnut colt - carbo copy of no1 - now 3 years old and 17.1hh!!!!!!!
3- Tiny black colt - yearling now and expected to make about 16hh at a push.
4- this year's foal is a huge chestnut colt....

Not sure you can draw any conclusions from any of it to be honest. But the best way to hedge your bets is pick a taller stallion of the same general type/breed as your mare (my theory only, so don't quote me on it!!!).

 

[Dexter]

My mares 14.2hh, her first foal is 23months old and 15hands already, I reckon he'll level off at 16hands give or take. Her second foal is no where near as big, shes on target to make 14hands.

 

[Pottermouse]

Thats what my Grandar used to say.
My last two foals are full brothers. Maiden Mare 15.3 TB. Stallion 16.2 Holstein.
Foal no 1. now Two years old = 14.3
Foal no 2. now 1 year old = 14.2
both colts

 

[vicijp]

No its a myth.
My 16.1hh mare went to a 16.1hh stallion and her first foal is now 17hh at 4yo.

 

[ggray1502]

Thats what I had thought to however I was majorly proven wrong
My mare 7yr old 15.3hh SSH(Breeding -Livius Ramero blood lines x with 14hh mare welsh cob x) to Blij Joch 16hh SSH (Orchard Glasnost line)

Was told to expect 15hh if I was lucky as his Grand Dam had always produced small foals with Rosie being the largest. I remember when Rosie was giving birth thinking when are the legs going to stop! lol Anyway measured Bailey in Feb, he was standing at 14.3hh he is now similar height to mum as a yearling and looking like he will be 16.2hh ish (which I can cope with)

It was the stallions first year and he seems to have thrown large foals
Gx

 

[competitiondiva]

I don't think first foal/second foal etc come into it, it's all about genes! Take my mare for example she's 15.2, out of a 15.2 maiden, stallion was 16.2. Now I put my 15.2 mare (again maiden) to a 16.1 stallion (his sire is 17hh) and the resulting offspring at 2 years old is nearing 16.1 already likely to mature around the 16.3 mark! So yes grand parents will also sometimes determine offspring qualities and size etc, my 2 year old looks nothing like his sire, but everything like the grandsire including potential height!! Now I will also add that some stallions seem to have traits of what they throw, some seem to usually throw small stock others large.