Fitting working spaniel whilst hunting

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JACQSZOO

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Yesterday I had a horrible experience that I wanted to share with others. I have two spaniels a 5yr old springer and an 18 month old cocker. I work them during the shooting season and they and I love every minute.

We had had a hard day on Wednesday and were out again yesterday. Neither were particulary interested in their breakfast yesterday morning, not unusual on a shoot day, although I did tempt them to eat a little with some gravy! Both dogs were working well and Pip my springer was into everything as she usually is.

On the very last drive Pip had a hypoglycemic (sp) seizure. Thankfully I have seen these before in other working dogs so didnt panic, but it was absolutely awful. If you have never seen one the dog fits, completely unaware of its surroundings, she was frothing at the mouth and her eyes were rolling in her head for a couple of minutes. As she came round she was confused, dazed and snarling at anyone that came near her including myself initially. Once she was with us again she was very wobbly on her feet for a few minutes.

Normally on a shoot day I take some food with me to feed at lunch to keep their energy levels up, but we didn't stop for lunch yesterday, instead we finished for the day around 2.30pm. I made a mistake, I knew were were not going to stop for lunch and I should have taken some food with them in my pockets so I am blaming myself. A combination of two hard days working was all it took.

Please if you work your spaniels be prepared. Its not pleasant to witness and for several minutes my heart was in my mouth. Within 10 minutes she was up and appeared fine, I pulled out of the drive and called it a day, although she had other ideas and was watching the activity and whining to get going. She even tried to pick up a bird!

We have had a quiet day today and she has been absolutely fine. We are out again tomorrow so I shall be filling up my pockets and watching her very closely even though I know we will be stopping for lunch and she will get some food then also.

She has never had one before and I hope she doesn't again.
 
Sorry to hear Pip had a fit.

I always carry the small mars bars when out on a shoot. Like you my dogs would get something at lunch time to keep up their energy levels.

At the moment I am working 4 springer in the beat line. Three are fully trained and my young dog will do some easy cover and then she will be put back on the lead.

Good luck and I hope Pip does not have another fit.
 
Hope your girl is ok now? How do you know it was hypoglycaemic? Is there a difference between that and straightforward epilepsy? I've trekked my dog over mountains for 6 hours and he had nothing to eat while out :confused:

Oddly, one of mine just fell over sideways like he was about to fit yesterday but when the OH bent down to check him, he leapt back up, no disorientation. Bizarre.
 
A fellow beater on our shoot had the same happen to his springer. It actually went into a coma though so was rushed to the vet.
Thankfully it made a full recovery but the vet advised to add pasta to its food a for a couple of days before shooting and to take squeezy honey with you so if it does happen you can put some honey on its gums where it is rapidly absorbed into the bloodstream.
 
Just wanted to update.

We went out again on Saturday, I went armed with pocketfuls of custard creams (getting Pip to eat anything on a shoot day is a task - far too many other exciting things to do! - the cocker however will eat anything in sight!)

Anyway I decided just to do the morning with her just to be on the safe side. She had a buscuit after every drive and I watched her like a hawk. She was absolutely fine :)

In future I shall be much more observant and careful. The first sign of her backing off her hunting and looking tired and I will pull her out. She is 5 years old and has never had one before and I hope she never does again.
 
cinnamontoast said:
Hope your girl is ok now? How do you know it was hypoglycaemic? Is there a difference between that and straightforward epilepsy? I've trekked my dog over mountains for 6 hours and he had nothing to eat while out :confused:

Oddly, one of mine just fell over sideways like he was about to fit yesterday but when the OH bent down to check him, he leapt back up, no disorientation. Bizarre.
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What Pip suffered from was this

http://www.helium.com/items/1310039-symptoms-of-hypoglycemia-in-hunting-dogs

I've been working Pip for several years without incident - we have also done a couple of days one after the other without issue.
 
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Nickijem said:
A fellow beater on our shoot had the same happen to his springer. It actually went into a coma though so was rushed to the vet.
Thankfully it made a full recovery but the vet advised to add pasta to its food a for a couple of days before shooting and to take squeezy honey with you so if it does happen you can put some honey on its gums where it is rapidly absorbed into the bloodstream.
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I've seen a few do it now, thankfully they have all recovered within minutes.

I have been doing some research and havent found anything that mentions pasta, but I shall try it, anything that encourages her to eat on the day of a shoot would help. Even beef gravy on her normal food didnt persuade her to eat that particular morning! I try and keep the same routine as I would do if I was going to work but somehow she knows whats going on!

I have heard about the honey and several other things you can try smearing on the gums - research suggests that it doesn't bring them around any quicker - but it can't do any harm.
 
Nickijem said:
A fellow beater on our shoot had the same happen to his springer. It actually went into a coma though so was rushed to the vet.
Thankfully it made a full recovery but the vet advised to add pasta to its food a for a couple of days before shooting and to take squeezy honey with you so if it does happen you can put some honey on its gums where it is rapidly absorbed into the bloodstream.
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Was that the time that Jasper (I'm sure that was his name!) went and hid in the hedge and had to be taken back on the quad? Didn't realise he got so poorly if so:(
 
theres an article about it in the latest BASC magasine - funnily enough they recommend the chudleys snack thing (its sponsored by chudleys ;)) but explains about feeding on a shoot day to prevent over exhaustion etc

i always feed a sandwich or sausage roll etc at lunchtime - ans always keep snacks in my pockets for both of us as i'm also prone to fainting if i'm too hungry!
 
This is really by way of questions, and isn't meant in any way to be a criticism of any posters. Honestly, it isn't. I don't understand, perhaps someone can explain to me;

Back in the '70s we used to get dogs (and ourselves!) ready for grouse shooting, and the moors. Mostly we did it by cycling, on back lanes, and with dogs running, almost as a pack. Initially, it was 1 hour a day, then 2, and then 2 x 2, or 2 + 1. It hardened their feet and wind, and in the August heat, it helped us, too.

After a fortnight of shooting 6 days a week, the dogs came back, all b****cks and bones, but they looked like hounds, and they would go all day. With most, I'de seen more meat on a butcher's pencil. I've had plenty of occasions when spaniels worked for 14 days solid, with the exception of the Sunday off, in the middle.

What has gone so wrong, and why do we now need to rest our dogs through the day, and keep up their energy levels, as I've seen done, at field trials, with energy drinks? Feeding a work dog before work would be counterproductive I'd say. I can't imagine doing a day of graft on a full stomach, and I can't see a dog wanting to either.

JACKSZOO, I'm sorry to hear of your 5 yo dog's problems, and I'll agree, it must have been very worrying for you. Again, 20-30 years ago, such problems were never heard of, not by me, anyway. So why now?

Alec.
 
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Alec Swan said:
This is really by way of questions, and isn't meant in any way to be a criticism of any posters. Honestly, it isn't. I don't understand, perhaps someone can explain to me;

Back in the '70s we used to get dogs (and ourselves!) ready for grouse shooting, and the moors. Mostly we did it by cycling, on back lanes, and with dogs running, almost as a pack. Initially, it was 1 hour a day, then 2, and then 2 x 2, or 2 + 1. It hardened their feet and wind, and in the August heat, it helped us, too.

After a fortnight of shooting 6 days a week, the dogs came back, all b****cks and bones, but they looked like hounds, and they would go all day. With most, I'de seen more meat on a butcher's pencil. I've had plenty of occasions when spaniels worked for 14 days solid, with the exception of the Sunday off, in the middle.

What has gone so wrong, and why do we now need to rest our dogs through the day, and keep up their energy levels, as I've seen done, at field trials, with energy drinks? Feeding a work dog before work would be counterproductive I'd say. I can't imagine doing a day of graft on a full stomach, and I can't see a dog wanting to either.

JACKSZOO, I'm sorry to hear of your 5 yo dog's problems, and I'll agree, it must have been very worrying for you. Again, 20-30 years ago, such problems were never heard of, not by me, anyway. So why now?

Alec.
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An interesting question Alec. This is only our 3rd season so it all relatively knew to me. From my perspective I can be out anything from once to three maybe four times a week, usually its twice a week. Perhaps I have taken it too much for granted that my dog is fit enough for what is required? Perhaps I need to be looking at what I feed? I really dont know.
 
JACKSZOO when do you feed? how many times a day? i feed am and pm every day - which is supposed to be better for them

interesting Alec - i suppose i actually just give them something at lunch as i was told to when i first started - but saying that i dont think twice about them any other day - and they are very fit due to coming out with the horse every day - so up to 6 miles on an average hack - 3 on a quiet hack and 15 on a long one - they never seem to tire on those so would probably be fine
 
posie_honey said:
JACKSZOO when do you feed? how many times a day? i feed am and pm every day - which is supposed to be better for them

interesting Alec - i suppose i actually just give them something at lunch as i was told to when i first started - but saying that i dont think twice about them any other day - and they are very fit due to coming out with the horse every day - so up to 6 miles on an average hack - 3 on a quiet hack and 15 on a long one - they never seem to tire on those so would probably be fine
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I feed am and pm also but as I said on a shoot day getting them to eat is difficult. I keep to the same routine everyday, fed at 6am so plenty of time for them to digest before we start working which is usually around 9.30/10am. I give them a handful of something at lunch during a working day and they have always thrived on that.
 
I work my springers hard during the season, often four days a week. I feed mine morning and evening, they certainly wouldn't eat when out shooting, though I do see others that do (mostly labradors :p)

Glad to hear your springer is fine, I have no doubt that it was distressing.

Mine are neither too fat or thin, but I do work mine throughout the year. Not as hard as if they were shooting, but they certainly don't start the season with a load of condition on them like so many others.
 
Hi Spudlet. Yes it was Jasper but it was a different occasion when we had to make a stretcher out of someone's posh coat and carry him back to the farm. I had forgotten that he also had that time when he had to be taken back on the quad.
We don't do that shoot now as they only shoot on Wednesdays which is a bit of a shame.
 
I'm glad she's ok. :) I wonder if what she's eating is involved in the problem? I think (might be wrong, I'm not too good on this!) that a low glycaemic index carbohydrate eg peas is a good type of nutrition for endurance, but I'm with Alec in wondering why hypoglycaemic fitting appears more prevelant now than years ago. Also, are some individuals/breeds more susceptible?
 
Nickijem said:
Hi Spudlet. Yes it was Jasper but it was a different occasion when we had to make a stretcher out of someone's posh coat and carry him back to the farm. I had forgotten that he also had that time when he had to be taken back on the quad.
We don't do that shoot now as they only shoot on Wednesdays which is a bit of a shame.
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That is a shame:( And poor Jasper! I'm glad he was ok, but what a worry.
 
So I've spent the last hour, googling away, as you do, and I'm not too sure that I'm any the wiser.

Hypoglycaemia is to do with blood sugar levels, but from what I can see, it can also be brought on by a pancreatic, or a brain condition.

I've had both lurchers, and sheepdogs too which have been at the point of collapse, but they've never fitted. Their back end will collapse, they stay conscious, but they are awake and aware, though patently distressed. It's generally been brought on by monstrous energy expirations, but given time, water (both inside and out), and a rapid body cooling regime, recovery has been surprisingly quick.

I suspect that there's a deal of difference between the Hypoglycaemia as described by the OP, and the total collapse which I've witnessed.

I'd like to hear the thoughts of Aru.

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
So I've spent the last hour, googling away, as you do, and I'm not too sure that I'm any the wiser.

Hypoglycaemia is to do with blood sugar levels, but from what I can see, it can also be brought on by a pancreatic, or a brain condition.

I've had both lurchers, and sheepdogs too which have been at the point of collapse, but they've never fitted. Their back end will collapse, they stay conscious, but they are awake and aware, though patently distressed. It's generally been brought on by monstrous energy expirations, but given time, water (both inside and out), and a rapid body cooling regime, recovery has been surprisingly quick.

I suspect that there's a deal of difference between the Hypoglycaemia as described by the OP, and the total collapse which I've witnessed.

I'd like to hear the thoughts of Aru.

Alec.
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Yours sounds like exercise induced collapse. The big sign is back end going, high temperature of 41 degrees rectal. NSN's links both sound like what you describe.
 
I just stumbled on to this - it may or may not be of any particular use but thought it looked relevant. I don't know if anyone has heard of this brand of food or not - it was a first by me. But it's the pemmican energy bars that I thought might be useful?

http://www.kronch.co.uk/shop
 
PucciNPoni said:
I just stumbled on to this - it may or may not be of any particular use but thought it looked relevant. I don't know if anyone has heard of this brand of food or not - it was a first by me. But it's the pemmican energy bars that I thought might be useful?

http://www.kronch.co.uk/shop
Click to expand...

A friend bought this or something very similar at last years game fair. He tried it on several dogs and to be honest didn't really see any benefits.
 
JACQSZOO said:
Yesterday I had a horrible experience that I wanted to share with others. I have two spaniels a 5yr old springer and an 18 month old cocker. I work them during the shooting season and they and I love every minute.

We had had a hard day on Wednesday and were out again yesterday. Neither were particulary interested in their breakfast yesterday morning, not unusual on a shoot day, although I did tempt them to eat a little with some gravy! Both dogs were working well and Pip my springer was into everything as she usually is.

On the very last drive Pip had a hypoglycemic (sp) seizure. Thankfully I have seen these before in other working dogs so didnt panic, but it was absolutely awful. If you have never seen one the dog fits, completely unaware of its surroundings, she was frothing at the mouth and her eyes were rolling in her head for a couple of minutes. As she came round she was confused, dazed and snarling at anyone that came near her including myself initially. Once she was with us again she was very wobbly on her feet for a few minutes.

Normally on a shoot day I take some food with me to feed at lunch to keep their energy levels up, but we didn't stop for lunch yesterday, instead we finished for the day around 2.30pm. I made a mistake, I knew were were not going to stop for lunch and I should have taken some food with them in my pockets so I am blaming myself. A combination of two hard days working was all it took.

Please if you work your spaniels be prepared. Its not pleasant to witness and for several minutes my heart was in my mouth. Within 10 minutes she was up and appeared fine, I pulled out of the drive and called it a day, although she had other ideas and was watching the activity and whining to get going. She even tried to pick up a bird!

We have had a quiet day today and she has been absolutely fine. We are out again tomorrow so I shall be filling up my pockets and watching her very closely even though I know we will be stopping for lunch and she will get some food then also.

She has never had one before and I hope she doesn't again.
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Just a few questions...firstly I will say I am not familiar with this condition happening in working dogs but we do less big shoots here in Ireland versus the uk so it might be a semi regional problem I have never heard of..have been doing a lot of reading up and asking questions on the Vet forums since I read your post. Really so learn something new every day!so thanks for posting and I hope Pip is doing well.

How are you sure it was a simple hypoglycemic fit? Were there any signs leading up to the fit?Did she recover due to feeding/sugar substitute on the gums or did she manage to pull up the reserves herself?By any chance did you notice the colour was her tongue during or after the fit?

This isnt because I am doubting you its is just out of pure curiosity as the last hypoglycemic patient I seen was disorientated after her fits but not aggressive or overly confused that would be more an epilepsy issue.

The signs you described could also match an epileptic fit, atypical Addison's disease and less likely given what you described but still possible...malignant hyperthermia/canine stress syndrome/exercise induced collapse, potentially laryngeal collapse or another lung problem or a dog with a heart problem so I really would go and get her checked out by a vet just to rule out the other causes of collapse as some of those are potentially life threatening.

Its still very very likely given the history that it was due to low blood sugar,especially if shes a very lean dog so has less stores to fall back onto, but it would be a shame to not know if it was something more controllable. Nervous,extremely excitable or yappy dogs do seem to be more probe to the issue for some reason as well. See my musings on that below..

Increasing fitness gradually before the season,keeping the dogs range closer to you and constant drip feeding while out are all recommended to control....honey rubbed on the gums can be a good way of getting sugar into a dog reluctant to eat normaly as they will always lick that off and most like the taste.

Also on a side note exercise induced collapsed in Labradors has been determined as being genetic and there are tests available at least in the US anyway so I would wonder if the hunting dog collapse could be something similar.
Not that its not blood sugar levels that are the issue but that certain breed lines might be more susceptible to going into full blown hypoglycemic crisis or have an attitude of ignoring the bodys safeguards and continuing to work where another dog might lag and stop before they hit crisis point. Just a musing. and a very thrown together post im afraid as Im a little incoherent with tirednes this evening...really must work on the going to bed earlier issue!
 
I'd forgotten all about this thread! Having given it more thought, I remain nonplussed to the fact that hypoglycaemia is a condition which dogs suffer from. I keep a few sheep, and at the end of pregnancy, if there's a sudden demand upon the sugar levels maintained by a sheep, then they will go down and if they're not treated immediately, then death will almost certainly be the outcome.

This is the bit that I just don't understand; ruminants, because of their reliance upon a sugar supplying grass intake, and especially during late pregnancy, will be at risk. Are dogs reliant upon a sugar level, during their everyday lives? It would surprise me if they were. Where would the daily supply of sugar come from, for a scavenging, mostly carnivorous animal? How can hypoglycaemia possibly be brought on by an imbalance in blood sugar levels, or have I got this whole thing wrong?

Another question, which is currently begging, is what on earth are we doing breeding dogs, when for the first time in history, those involved in a days work, need their energy levels topping up? I wonder how many huntsmen, over the years and now, carry an energy top-up for their hounds. To suggest such a thing to a huntsmen, would bring derision down upon the questioner!

I have no wish to belittle the products made by Kronch, but I'm wondering if this isn't all a case of a company creating a market place, through the supply of what they'd have us believe, is a product which we simply can't live without. I'll take some convincing that I'm wrong.

Alec.
 
I think you may have hit the nail on the head Alex. Energy supply versus energy demand.

In sheep the twin lamb disease which comes on in later pregnancy is caused due to sheep having an energy level crisis caused by the growing lambs. They are unable to take in enough calories as the space in their stomachs is reduced due to the growing lambs, at the same time that the energy demands upon the body are increasing due to the same growing lambs demanding a higher share of energy later in pregnancy...as a result the muscles and fat and glycogen in the body are broken down in an attempt to create enough energy to sustain the animal.The consequence of this is that the liver has to try and cope with a different energy source and it can struggle with this.The alternative energy sources in the body are not as effective as the normal breakdown of normal food(carbohydrates to glucose) and they also produce dangerous byproducts.As the body struggles to process the new energy source there is a build up of dangerous chemicals (ketones)that damage the liver as well as an energy crisis and this causes twin lamb disease (pregnancy toxaemia)leading to ewes going down and dying quickly if not treated. Supplementing the ewes with the likes of chanatol(Propelene glycol) as an alternative energy source fixes the problem as long as the animals liver hasnt been badly damaged.

Dogs have a slightly different metabolism to sheep but the basic principle is the same..energy supply versus demand...On a shoot with an excessive amount of exercise being used up.The energy being supplied from the food eaten that day will not not be enough to sustain the animals body and metabolism compared to the energy being used up by the muscles etc.However the body is designed for this and other ways of getting energy are available in the short term. When the bodies metabolism demands energy to work and the digestive system is not providing sufficient amounts it will begin to supplement itself. It does this by breaking down the other energy sources through a number of different pathways, these are much less effective pathways than carbs to glucose but they do work.These pathways use the glycogen and other fat stores in the body.In a lean dog with a low fat index its not improbable that the other energy stores in the body would be excessively broken down and the depletion of glycogen stores in the liver would causing a hypoglycemic crisis.

This however is unusual and should not happen as the body has a number of safeguards there to stop you going over the top when you are running on empty...cramping muscles,hunger, disorientation,clumsiness etc should all be seen way before the fitting starts...so its interesting to wonder is it that these animals are ignoring their bodies natural signs and continuing to stay focused on the hunt as they are keen working dogs or are they genetically more likely to skip the pre-warnings and slip into extreme crisis due to a genetic fault.

Very much in agreement on the breeding angle of this though. Darwins law of survival of the fittest seems apt. If they are not fit for a days shooting then why pass on the weak genes.Yes management likely has a lot to do with it..i.e fitness and readiness for the level of exercise, feed intake and condition before hand... but I wouldn't be at all surprised if theres a genetic susceptibility to it...I cant imagine that many wolves or wild/feral dogs with this sort of inbuilt weakness live to pass on their genes considering they are scavengers...and would have to hunt and used up a lot of energy between meals.
 
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As far as I can see dogs were designed to eat meat,fat,bones and entrails.Keepers dogs I have known were fed on either Breast of Lamb,or lumps of Ox Tripe,with the wodges of suet left on. Hounds are fed whole carcases,or were,and basically were their own doctors.My own dogs are fed raw chook carcases,cow head meat and ox tripe,plenty of energy releasing fat in all of that.I believe these man made diets,which to my sceptic mind are ways of profiting from waste ,fed right dogs are just fine with endless energy as God designed them.Nothing has evolved,only the profiteers finding a good way to be rid of waste and charge as much as they dare.
 
Haven't read every post but, as usual, Alex speaks a lot of sense.

I cannot honestly recall a single of case of this sort of attack in any dog I have worked over the years. I had one lurcher collapse when it repeatedly chased white hares but that was liver collapse and the dog was dead within 20 minutes. Nor have I fed a dog more than once a day and then always in the evening after work. I was advised many years ago (and many times since) never to feed a dog before work as that can lead to torsion of the gut (twisted intestine). I have lost two or three with that but only in the kennel.

I corresponded with a Canadian who lived in the Arctic over the feeding of salmon and seal meat. (Yes, I have fed both and a lot of other things besides!). He told me seal meat was rich and he fed his working sled dogs once every three days. At the time, I was feeding sheep heads (very rich) and fed once every two days. Neither of us had any problems and the dogs were not unduly bothered by the intervals between feeding. Incidentally, he advised me that seal meat needs to be fed frozen so the gut has something to grip! I'd been feeding it thawed and found it slid through without being completely digested! Salmon has to be made into a sort of silage to get the best value out of it.... (I'm sure that information will be immensely useful to you all!).

I also had some discussions with an animal behaviourist who used to work for a pet food company. He explained to me that modern dog foods are designed to be palatable to pets without putting weight on the dog, that way the customer buys more! So not really the best food for a working dog.

Rather than feeding Chudley's whatever, if I felt it necessary, I'd increase the amount of FAT in the diet, feed cooked easily digested meat as soon as I got home after work (easily digested, so hopefully the gut it empty next morning), and IF I felt it necessary I'd feed a raw egg or a lump of lard in the morning before working the dog. Dogs, by the way, don't usually eat sugars and it is not a natural feed.

I was called in as a consultant where a dog had been hired to an estate and was "found dead in the kennel". The gamekeeper claimed it has jumped out of the kennel so he had tethered it. It had then jumped out again and the chain had hanged it. The autopsy did not reveal any bruising but there were symptoms which indicated that the dog had literally been worked to death. Some breeds of gundog are like Thoroughbred horses. They literally don't know when to stop and it is for the handler to exercise common sense. When pressured by clients to find grouse for shooting, an ignorant gamekeeper will sometimes work a dog too hard.

If working dogs were inclined to get fits back when Alex was a mere sparkle in his grandfather's eye, they would have been in a hole very quickly. But that seldom happened because we fed them properly
 
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