Five year old running at intermediate

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Theres a five year old on the circuit who's down to run an intermediate at Burnham Market at the weekend - I've been following him as he looks like a nice horse! What views have you got on the fact they're already planning on running intermediate? If you look at his record he's jumped 6 novices, all clear XC, and he's only faulted once in showjumping. He also won at Winkburn, so i'm a bit up and down on the opinions - is it too much too soon, or viable to do that with a baby??
 
IMO too much too soon! I would worry abouth the strain on the young joints, tendons and ligaments. I would also worry the horse will 'throw in the towel' in the not too distant future, as mentally it must be frazzled! I would also query why the owner/rider feels the need to rush so much?
 
If he's got a very very good jockey on, who's unlikely to put him in a bad place, i think it's fine. it's only if there's a major 'eek' moment that maybe he won't have the experience to sort himself out and react in the right way.
fwiw i can think of one top rider who advances his up the ranks pretty quickly if they're very precocious.
i'd rather see a horse progress like that than run 15-20 times a season, i think!
 
Plenty of 5yo's showjump at Foxhunter level and above so don't see a major problem with it if the jockey is good and the horse talented enough.
 
Andrew Nicholson does this with nearly all of his youngsters. I wouldn't do it with mine because I don't think I could train one to be successful at that level in such a short time and I would be a bit unsure as to where to go from there... There also doesn't seem much point as they are not allowed to compete CIC/CCI until they are at least 6.

But then if I could ride as well as Andrew Nicholson does........!
 
I certainly wouldn't do it, as Charliemouse said..why rush? Let it gain confidence at the lower levels, and make mistakes (as all young horses invaribly do) at fences that will allow for error. A mistake at Int level wouldn't be a very nice experience for horse or rider. Can't be doing the horse's legs any good either.
 
you can put stuff off and switch them off over a cross pole if you miss often enough! :D
its the rider that gives the horse confidence, not necessarily the fences.

and to be fair, fences 3inches bigger wont make over much difference on the legs,
although to be fair i dont event, maybe other factors such as distance and speed come into play?
i dont know! i prefer mine to fall down ;)
 
With the right jockey I don't see a problem. I can't understand doing an extra season at Novice because it isn't the done thing...surely that is worse putting the extra mileage on for no reason?
 
If the horse has ability it can be worse to stay at a lower level with the horse becoming casual than to keep taking the horse forward. The state of the ground is going to have more of an effect on the joints and tendons than 3 more inches on a fence.
Andrew will do it with his if they are finding novice easy, but not with all of them. However they will have had plenty of jumping experience before they start competing.
 
Didn't Murphy Himself do a 2* at 6 years old or something like that? He was definitely younger than the FEI allows. (They had his age wrong then corrected it, or at least that was the story.)

As above, it has a lot more to do with the horse's ability, how it's produced and who's on it than just the shere number of events it's done or even the years that have elasped. Remember, pros don't have to jump one more jump than the horse needs - they never have to jump to practice or for psychological reasons - so in fact the horse may have jumped fewer actual jumps than many horses at a lower level.

And presumably they have the big picture in play so won't take an insane risk now just to prove something. Top riders don't usually make the time by riding like madmen, they do it by hugging the line and being efficient, so if the horse is talented and naturally quick even makeing the time won't necessarily be a huge stress on it.

I'd worry more if a rider had EVERY horse that age competing at that level - that would bespeak a lack of ability to judge the individuals. But presumably they have a reason for making this choice for this horse and nothing to gain by having it go wrong. I'd also worry if a rider with little or no experience at that level was running a horse that young, as the rider couldn't possibly have the mileage to help the horse, but presumably it wouldn't be the situation in this case.

Would I do it? No, probably not. But it's a moot question because I'm not good enough at that job to produce a horse that age ready for that test.
 
Its a tricky question to answer and I think it really depends on the horse. I am not familiar with the horse but some breeds mature faster than others. My 17hh warmblood is only really starting to grow into himself now and he's just turned 6. I would never have put him under the stress at 5 because he was still growing and developing and I think it would have put too much strain on his joints and caused issues later.

Now I ride a 4yr old tb who has done a couple of the Lycetts classes and is much more mature than the warmblood was at her age. Whilst I know she won't be ready to go intermediate next year physically she'd be in a much better position to do it at 5 than the warmblood. My chiro and vet are both avid believers that these youngsters should be given time to develop especially if you want longevity.

So I guess I am just saying i think you really need to judge each horse case by case and if they have a jumping record like that is there any point in continuing round BE90/100 because they are young? I am still not sure I would but then my horses are horses for life and will never be sold so long term fitness/health is the most important thing. I am also no way near on par to in terms of riding to the horses jockey!
 
TarrSteps said:
Didn't Murphy Himself do a 2* at 6 years old or something like that? He was definitely younger than the FEI allows. (They had his age wrong then corrected it, or at least that was the story.)

As above, it has a lot more to do with the horse's ability, how it's produced and who's on it than just the shere number of events it's done or even the years that have elasped. Remember, pros don't have to jump one more jump than the horse needs - they never have to jump to practice or for psychological reasons - so in fact the horse may have jumped fewer actual jumps than many horses at a lower level.

And presumably they have the big picture in play so won't take an insane risk now just to prove something. Top riders don't usually make the time by riding like madmen, they do it by hugging the line and being efficient, so if the horse is talented and naturally quick even makeing the time won't necessarily be a huge stress on it.

I'd worry more if a rider had EVERY horse that age competing at that level - that would bespeak a lack of ability to judge the individuals. But presumably they have a reason for making this choice for this horse and nothing to gain by having it go wrong. I'd also worry if a rider with little or no experience at that level was running a horse that young, as the rider couldn't possibly have the mileage to help the horse, but presumably it wouldn't be the situation in this case.

Would I do it? No, probably not. But it's a moot question because I'm not good enough at that job to produce a horse that age ready for that test.
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I was going to post about Murphy Himself too, I think he actually won Burghley as a 6 year old! :eek:
 
No I've checked and although I could have sworn that was what it said in an article I read recently having checked he was believed to be 8 when he won Burghley but was probably only 7.
 
I don't see any reason for putting more miles on the clock than is necessary.
Also we are always saying we should treat are horses as the individuals they are.
So if the rider feels the horse is ready for this then good for them.
A test run at the level up this Autumn on good ground is something thats quite often done isn't it?
 
20 years ago before PN was invented we wouldn't of had this discussion, would we?
Why run a horse more than necessary if it progresses up the ranks quickly and in the way that has been described then why does it matter. I am sure that the jockey has enough confidence in his/her preparation to know that the horse can do it.
I would much rather it get fewer decent runs early on and then the jockey/owner can be more selctive about where the horse runs and what level it runs at.
As an example, if you were to run the London Marathon, is it better to run 4 or 5 marathons first (just to get the practise) or is it better to have the London Marathon as the ultimate culmination of your training efforts, thus saving your body the stress and trauma?
 
KristmasKatt said:
No I've checked and although I could have sworn that was what it said in an article I read recently having checked he was believed to be 8 when he won Burghley but was probably only 7.
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I think the point was, because of the mix up, he ran at an FEI event before he'd obtained the "legal" age of 6 and no one was any the wiser, nor did it seem to impact negatively on his ability to go on and do well. ;) You have to wonder how many horses out there have had similar experiences and never been found out.

Marius, Milton's sire, also turned out to be a totally different horse than he was sold as (sold as Irish, turned out to be Dutch :) ) and I think there was some question about his age, too. It's interesting, when you read back, how many young horses with very minimal mileage went to very high level competitions. People just kept going forward until the horse told them enough. It's different now with microchips and more careful record keeping but the fact is, in the not too distant past, age was often guesswork anyway and a horse that looked more mature would likely be given the benefit of the doubt if the teeth matched up.
 
Also, look at all the horses who have raced before they've gone eventing - they've done a heck of a lot more before 5 than most sport horses. Jessica Pheonix's horse that's just jumped a DC at Blenheim raced until it was 7!
 
Interesting one this. Assuming that it is who I think it is, I have not heard of the rider before and on looking her up discovered that she has not ridden above 2* (2004) and not done anything above Intermediate since 2005 - in 2006 and 2007 she only did Intros - presumably something to do with the age of the horses that she had then?

The horse in question ran 4 times BE as a 4 year old and has already run 8 times BE this year (and at least once UA), the last time at IN on 14/9 and she is going again this weekend at Intermediate?! Clearly it is a very talented horse but I have to say that I would definitely worry about it's longevity in the sport both from a physical and mental point of view with that kind of timetable at such a young age.

Incidentally on checking bdwp I see it is also entered in the CIC at South of England on 24/9 ... !!!
 
It will be interesting to know how long it goes on for in the sport however well produced as this summer has not been the best for ground conditions for a young horse's limbs. Be interested too in the breeding.
 
Cazza263 said:
Interesting one this. Assuming that it is who I think it is, I have not heard of the rider before and on looking her up discovered that she has not ridden above 2* (2004) and not done anything above Intermediate since 2005 - in 2006 and 2007 she only did Intros - presumably something to do with the age of the horses that she had then?

The horse in question ran 4 times BE as a 4 year old and has already run 8 times BE this year (and at least once UA), the last time at IN on 14/9 and she is going again this weekend at Intermediate?! Clearly it is a very talented horse but I have to say that I would definitely worry about it's longevity in the sport both from a physical and mental point of view with that kind of timetable at such a young age.

Incidentally on checking bdwp I see it is also entered in the CIC at South of England on 24/9 ... !!!
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Wow! I just wouldn't put mine through that at such a young age!
 
i was nosey enough to have a look and work out who it is. hmm.
must admit that if it was AN or someone of his calibre and enormous experience, I wouldn't be concerned at all. because it isn't, i am slightly... but, they have a great record together so far though, so maybe he's finding it all ridiculously easy, hence the step up. impossible to comment accurately and fairly without seeing them in action, obviously.
 
I think it does depend on the horse as they mature at this age at such different rates. Plus the rider should know what is right for the horse.
However imho looking at its records it seems like a lot for a 5yo. She has run him pretty hard and competitvely with an intermediate novice, intermediate and a 1* all within a couple of weeks. Not sure even the pros would do that. Yes its doing well but results on the net are very deceiving to how the horse actually goes....
Will be interested to see if it makes old age or if it is one of those horses that has peaked very soon...... its easy to forget that most olympic horses are 14/15! 10 years away!

I am doing a couple of novices on my 5yo only because she needs a bigger fence and finds BE100 easy, I have only run her 3 times this year though and she will only run on perfect ground and i'm not interested in being super competitive, a nice educational double clear is the aim and won't push her out of her natural gallop as she isn't mature enough to make mistakes going fast yet plus she has too much jump! Next year she will only event in the Spring and Autumn and probably no more than 6 or 7 events.

Has everyone noticed how WFP horses are so sound and consitant? If you look at what they do when they are 5 and 6 it is very interesting. He campaigns them lightly, he gets time pens on them and he never does BYEH. They then they win at Lion d'angers and seem to have long careers.
 
i agree with all the rest, but especially:
ElleJS said:
Has everyone noticed how WFP horses are so sound and consitant? If you look at what they do when they are 5 and 6 it is very interesting. He campaigns them lightly, he gets time pens on them and he never does BYEH. They then they win at Lion d'angers and seem to have long careers.
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Yes, exactly. I can quote him as saying, iirc, "I can't think of anything worse than taking a 4 year old to a competition!" (at a lect/demo a few years ago when asked why he doesn't do PAVO and BYEH etc).
he takes them slowly, he educates them properly, and hey ho, when the chips are down at top level, they know how to come up with the goods again and again. funny, that. ;) ;) ;)
 
kerilli said:
i agree with all the rest, but especially:


Yes, exactly. I can quote him as saying, iirc, "I can't think of anything worse than taking a 4 year old to a competition!" (at a lect/demo a few years ago when asked why he doesn't do PAVO and BYEH etc).
he takes them slowly, he educates them properly, and hey ho, when the chips are down at top level, they know how to come up with the goods again and again. funny, that. ;) ;) ;)
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That has really got me thinking... I have a 3yo which I was going to prep for BYEH/4yo classes next year, never doubted that he'd cope with it, but all of a sudden I'm not so sure!
 
kerilli said:
Yes, exactly. I can quote him as saying, iirc, "I can't think of anything worse than taking a 4 year old to a competition!" (at a lect/demo a few years ago when asked why he doesn't do PAVO and BYEH etc).
he takes them slowly, he educates them properly, and hey ho, when the chips are down at top level, they know how to come up with the goods again and again. funny, that. ;) ;) ;)
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I do think one of the important parts of that though, is not just that he "takes it slowly" but that the horses do very little competing until they're quite established and they don't seem to run for the sake of it. (Partly because HE doesn't need to!)

I do find often when people advise taking it slowly, what they really mean is repeating and repeating and repeating at a very low level, which is not the same thing at all and, as oldvic pointed out, actually potentially just as damaging as doing too much, too fast.

To be fair, lots of pros do very little with their horses when they're young and bring them out at quite a high level. I know dressage horses that went out literally once or twice at each level then "debuted" very successfully at FEI levels.

I do think William is in the enviable position, too, of not HAVING to run any horse, either for himself or (I presume) under pressure from his owners. I'm not saying other people are running horses knowing they shouldn't, but sometimes they have to err on the riskier side of a decision and keep everything crossed it comes off.
 
His horses are still the best in the country at their respective age groups at 6, 7, 8 and 9 years and yet have never been trawled through the byeh and young horse classes. I can imagine if the horse was as talented as the horse we are talking about in this post, if William had it it in his yard it wouldn't be competing at all till a 6yo and then would win Le Lion at the end of the year after only 3 or 4 events and be mentally and physically strong for years to come.
 
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