Five year old running at intermediate

Teamo said:
That has really got me thinking... I have a 3yo which I was going to prep for BYEH/4yo classes next year, never doubted that he'd cope with it, but all of a sudden I'm not so sure!
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To be fair, too, "coping" is not the same as "benefiting". :)

It's one of my bugbears that somehow Young Horse classes have come to be seen as developmental opportunities, or worse, standards of achievement for all horses. This was not the original intent. They were designed as TESTING opportunities, mostly for studbooks and breeders to get results asap (and not necessarily too concerned with the long term) and "talent spotting" opportunities for future stars (this is debatable but a talented horse is a talented horse so it has at least some basis in fact). They are, in effect, professional showcases, not "something to do" for every horse. The onus is on owners to objectively evaluate whether or not competing in them is the best choice for the individual horse - even top end breeders and producers don't automatically send all their eligible horses to "age" classes. No one is under the impression the horses necessarily get anything essential from the experience.

Sorry, I don't mean that to sound personal - I've never seen you or your horse - I just thought it was worth pointing out. Even the people who designed the classes don't think they're the best idea for every horse or even that they're even "horse friendly" - that's not the point of them!

As above, lots of horses win at 6/7/8 having done very little competing before that. And they're likely better for it.
 
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TarrSteps said:
To be fair, too, "coping" is not the same as "benefiting". :)

It's one of my bugbears that somehow Young Horse classes have come to be seen as developmental opportunities, or worse, standards of achievement for all horses. This was not the original intent. They were designed as TESTING opportunities, mostly for studbooks and breeders to get results asap (and not necessarily too concerned with the long term) and "talent spotting" opportunities for future stars (this is debatable but a talented horse is a talented horse so it has at least some basis in fact). They are, in effect, professional showcases, not "something to do" for every horse. The onus is on owners to objectively evaluate whether or not competing in them is the best choice for the individual horse - even top end breeders and producers don't automatically send all their eligible horses to "age" classes. No one is under the impression the horses necessarily get anything essential from the experience.

Sorry, I don't mean that to sound personal - I've never seen you or your horse - I just thought it was worth pointing out. Even the people who designed the classes don't think they're the best idea for every horse or even that they're even "horse friendly" - that's not the point of them!

As above, lots of horses win at 6/7/8 having done very little competing before that. And they're likely better for it.
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Yes, perhaps 'cope' was a poor choice of words. What I meant was 'preferably benefit but at least not be damaged by' :p. He's nice and mature for his age, with a good attitude, which is why I thought he could benefit from the experience, but now I am wondering if he'd benefit even more from not competing until 5 or 6.
 
caterpillar said:
Think I've worked it out!
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I worked it out too. I actually went to school with a coupe of members of her family!! Whoops. Either way the horse will have run 11 (I think some unaff in there) times this season which is quite a lot for something so young.

I have a youngy and I wouldn't do it just because if it didn't knacker his joints it may frazzle his little brain!
 
Don't know the horse or person involved here but gosh, I can't imagine my 5 year old having run that many times on varying ground this year. He's mature and sensible and actually with a pro would probably be PN by now and maybe even considering a N run, but not sure how good it can be for still growing joints....
 
Well unlike you clever lot I have not worked out who it is. I think if the horse has got a wonderful jockey and it's major talent dipping a toe in the water at intermediate at the end of the season won't harm it. Top riders can produce their horses with far less behind the scenes mileage than us lesser mortals as they screw up less and know exactly what they need to feel at each level.I would never had done that but then I am not a world class rider
 
kerilli said:
i agree with all the rest, but especially:


Yes, exactly. I can quote him as saying, iirc, "I can't think of anything worse than taking a 4 year old to a competition!" (at a lect/demo a few years ago when asked why he doesn't do PAVO and BYEH etc).
he takes them slowly, he educates them properly, and hey ho, when the chips are down at top level, they know how to come up with the goods again and again. funny, that. ;) ;) ;)
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The valuer who I spoke with, while going through the LOU claim with my girl, said he deals with a LOT of horses being written off who have done BYEH and are wrecked from too much too young.
 
squiz22 said:
IEither way the horse will have run 11 (I think some unaff in there) times this season which is quite a lot for something so young.
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11 times seems a lot for even a seasoned horse? My older event horse averaged about 8 events a season, never pushed, not started young, never ridden on bad ground.... his joints are a bit achey at 15, hate to think what'd have happened if I'd started him younger.

My 5 year olds have done 3 events each this year, and as the ground is mostly like rock here, that seems plenty to me!
 
To be fair I've looked at the record and its only run seven times so far this season - in the spring, then a gap of three months before running again in the autumn. Saw it out at Purston IN, and it jumped like they weren't there, both showjumping and XC, so fair play really provided she's sensible if its struggling?

I think you guys that are saying it depends on the horse is absolutely right - and fair play about not hanging around at novice just because its the done thing to keep running at that - I'd agree. If it had been running week in week out, and was obviously green when I watched it, I would've thought she was crazy, but they haven't pushed it, and it's gone double clear nearly every run, so suppose its game on to have test run!

Also - its so easy to back seat ride!!
 
The horse in question is finding novices so easy its not really learning a lot at that level hence why it ran IN at purston! (It was entered for wednesday but got swapped to thursday out of the riders control) and now running INT at burnham. The INT course this year at burnham isn't the most technical and should be a good run for him. The rider is the first to admit that one day it'll have an off day (what horse won't?) But atm is finding novices far to easy to the point he switchs off! For a big 5 year old he is very switched on and athletic and relishes the challenges put in front of him! After an 9+ hour journey back from blair the following morning when he was turned out he jumped the same piece of paddock fence 4 times in quick succession just for fun and because he could ! Every horse is different at the end of the day and so are everybodies methods of doing things! Who are we to say what is right or wrong unless we are in that situation.
 
ecrozier said:
Not 100% but I think thats the rider who produces horses for a pretty well known syndicate? So would be looking to maximise value as soon as possible?
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Sid, the horse in question, is not for sale, and not owned by the slice of pie syndicate - he is Sams baby and fingers crossed a star for the future...
He may have run a lot, but he finds it so easy, it took a while for him to qualify for the Lycetts, and then he was getting so blasé SJ at BE100 the decision to run him novice was taken, not lightly I might add...

He is an incredibly chilled boy, who finds his events easy and not stressful,and would likely do more work at home than he would eventing.

Sam would be the first to admit if she thought we were pushing him to fast too soon...

He is now being moved down to BE100 for Munstead And will run once more at SoE before Osberton, he will then do Pulbrough Novice and go to Aldon to finish the season... He is a tough little horse, and being prepared for the future with the hope that if he sees all the sights at a young age, nothing will phase him when he progresses up the levels...
 
Hang on a minute, since when has BYEH been the most damaging thing to a young event horse? 4 year olds do a basic dressage test and jump a course of 90cm showjumps, maybe with one or two xc style fences; 5 year olds do the same test but with lengthened strides in one movement, then jump a course of 1m showjumps. I hardly think that is hugely stressful unless the venue has cr@p ground, in which case you wouldn't run them, would you?

I'm not being pedantic, just pointing out that BYEH is hardly the root of all evil for a horse that is ready for that level of challenge. I'm sure ElleJS's 5yo's who have been jumped BS 5yo classes have been on surfaces so that's a lesser evil, but would have been jumping the same height, if not bigger, than their 5yo BE contemporaries. Horses for course an' all that. :D
 
Baydale said:
I'm not being pedantic, just pointing out that BYEH is hardly the root of all evil for a horse that is ready for that level of challenge. I'm sure ElleJS's 5yo's who have been jumped BS 5yo classes have been on surfaces so that's a lesser evil, but would have been jumping the same height, if not bigger, than their 5yo BE contemporaries. Horses for course an' all that. :D
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at Hickstead the 5YO classes were 1.20 and I think with a 1.25 jump off!! Pretty chuffing big!!!
 
Baydale I agree - young event horse classes, including lycetts ones, are hardly over taxing, and I'd say far better to run at affiliated event on prepped ground rather than unaffiliated on rubbish ground! Personally I'd rather run BS or BE for good courses and ground any day. - you can't vouch for the ground hunting, and that's seen as a great schooling ground for young event horses!

Surely its better to have a horse that is well prepped and has 'seen' all as person writing in defence of Sam suggested, than it is to have an overgreen horse. There are limits posed by BE to make sure horses aren't over taxed too young, and it very much depends on the individual, so I don't think that the 'system' is up for too much slagging!
 
Just to clarify I wasn't criticizing, was more defending the fact that as someone who produces a LOT of young horses, sam Penn would be in a position as much as anyone to judge how easy or not a horse is finding a N or two at 5 years old. don't think the horse of hers mentioned earlier has been suggested as running a dozen times this year at up to intermediate which was what the original post was about?
 
I don't know - the horse I was talking about definately hasn't run a dozen times - he'd run three novices in the spring, and hadn't run again until aston in August. Might have been another horse they were talking about!
 
Not sure - my detective work isn't up to scratch! Sure there are a lot of 5 year olds running in novices, not sure how many would step up to intermediate but sure it's not unheard of!
 
I'd rather that than the case of one 5 yr old last year that ran 18 times at BE90 and BE 100 level and as far as I believe was leading foundation points winner. At least this horse seams to be progressing.
 
A couple of things: Dont try to judge every horse the same, no Horse is the same as the next. You cant say that every 5yr old cant do this or that beacuse of its age just because your 5yr old couldnt cope with it. Age is nothing, the horse should be judged as an individual. Last seasons Gold Gup winner was a 6yr old and galloped 3miles 2 over 20 fences on good to firm ground.......

Regarding Sam Penn and Ian Barehams Pusiden, Ive followed this horse very closely all year, He was 2nd to me at Eridge in the 5yr/BE100 open class going inside the time which is tricky at Eridge, when ive seen this horse showjumping at Golden Cross, he is crying out for a bigger track and a step up in grade. He is so Bold and Brave. He is potentialy very smart.

I would be one of WFP's biggest fans, but its very easy for William not to run or do to much with a young horse as he would not be put under to much pressure from his very wealthy owners who buy these youngsters for Burghley, Badminton, Blenheim etc in 5-6yrs time. The rest of us have to take our chances when we get them.
 
My concern would be the hard ground we've had this year. I have a 5 yr old who was 2nd in the YEH final last year and qualified for the Lycetts final. This year she did 2 BE 90s , but then because of the hard ground she has been SJ since July. It's always on a surface, however she' s jumping bigger fences ( newcomers). Who's to say what is worse.
 
It does make me laugh when people 'worry' about tendons and wear and tear on 'young horses'. At intermediate we are talking about fences that are 3'9" high at most....and most eventers are competing no more than 6 to 8 times a year ! There are showjumpers aged 5 and 6 who are competing at Foxhunter / 1.30m and above (and therefore schooling at 1.40m+). They compete 2 or 3 times a week...plus whatever they jump at home. The odd run round a 1.15m is little more than a days hunting....get real! Twenty years ago...before there were such thingd as Be90/Be100....British Novice / Discovery etc...we all used to wheel our 5yo's out and jump a Novice or a Newcomers / Pathfinders (1.15m).
 
I have to say, this is another thread which makes me really uncomfortable. We don't know the rider, we don't know the horse, and as Ian Stark famously said, you ruin more than one horse on the way to the top - so wheeling out the great and the good as shining examples is a bit 'false' unless they were born knowing their 'system' and haven't developed and tweaked it over the years in response to the results of their decisions...
 
I have known this horse since he was a foal, and this is quite ironic after he was featured in last weeks H&H first wins, where the rider said he was a reject when he came to her. His breeder was quite rightly put out by this, as he is from a line of successful competition horses, and was bred quite specifically. Far from being a reject, he was shown as a foal and yearling in hunter classes, and was unbeaten. He is a very genuine and talented horse, and although I agree that rapid upgrading can be the right thing for some horses, in this case I wonder if the horses natural ability and enthusiasm are being somewhat abused.I hope I am wrong, as he is a super animal, who always potentially had a big future ahead of him.
 
gabanna said:
I have known this horse since he was a foal, and this is quite ironic after he was featured in last weeks H&H first wins, where the rider said he was a reject when he came to her. His breeder was quite rightly put out by this, as he is from a line of successful competition horses, and was bred quite specifically. Far from being a reject, he was shown as a foal and yearling in hunter classes, and was unbeaten.
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Alas, hardly unusual. I know all sorts of horses that have been "rescued" or "spotted in a field" but are in fact the products of someone's well thought out breeding program. Very frustrating.

I knew an Intl GP horse who was apparently "rescued" from a dressage home and miraculously went on to jump well. Except he was an Argentinus son who had jumped in Germany before being imported. So not exactly new at it. But the owners kept his "new" name and didn't disclose his breeding, even to the FEI. Shameful.
 
TarrSteps said:
Alas, hardly unusual. I know all sorts of horses that have been "rescued" or "spotted in a field" but are in fact the products of someone's well thought out breeding program. Very frustrating.

I knew an Intl GP horse who was apparently "rescued" from a dressage home and miraculously went on to jump well. Except he was an Argentinus son who had jumped in Germany before being imported. So not exactly new at it. But the owners kept his "new" name and didn't disclose his breeding, even to the FEI. Shameful.
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The breeder of the 5 yr old in question e mailed H&H after the article was published, simply to set the record straight on behalf of small breeders, but has so far had no response, so much for promotion of british bred horses!
 
Hi Everyone. Apologies, I'm new to this and its taken me ages to work out how to reply. This thread was brought to my attention last night, and I thought I would register and set the record straight on the horse that the thread at least began about. I'm very interested to see the new line it seems to be taking this morning with Gabbana's comments - I think that it is really inappropriate to begin discussing that on an open forum - if there is a problem between the horses owner, and its breeder, it should be down to them to discuss in private. After all, they are the people who know the facts of the matter. The breeder and its breeding were not talked about in the article, and nor did it refer to the horse being bred as a mistake, or indeed expand on why it was considered to be a reject. The horse was indeed 'a reject that came to me to be broken in and sold'. They absolutely hated him and had no intentions of keeping him. He wasn't the horse they were expecting to receive when they picked him up, and he was a real thug - smashing through stable doors, attempting to get out and getting stuck half over weaving grill, a nightmare with other horses, and very difficult to handle. These are experienced owners/breeders themselves, and they just wanted rid. When he was backed a spark of talent showed through - and they were persuaded to keep him on. Any issues the breeder may have should be taken up with the horses owners, not on here.

There is another side to the 'supporting british breeding' story. Not that I'm suggesting that its the case here, but why should irresponsible british breeders benefit when a horse genuinely is a reject, and hits the top simply because of someone elses hard work. If it's not been bred from good bloodlines by the breeder, and the jockey made the horse what it is, why should an irresponsible breeder benefit? Yes,r support british breeding - but careful British breeding from established performance bloodlines, not just foals that are bred for sentimentality from any old mare you own that's not sound enough/good enough to compete.

Now back to the actual discussion...... The horses talent is certainly not being abused. And he is not being 'pushed'. He has actually been held back BSJA - despite jumping double clears at 1m10's as a four year old, he's not been allowed to go fox or B and C's yet - to allow us to stay at a level alongside his eventing.

If you look at his record he ran four double clears in the lycetts classes last year. He was backed early as a 3 year old due to his size, and so could be considered to be a year ahead of most five year olds - though I must add he was only lightly 'pottered' about on at home at that age. He has never run at any unaffiliated event - with the exception of Oasby, as he was balloted. His 'training' has all been done at home and BE. He then ran one BE100 before going novice at great witchingham, double clear and 5th. He ran two more novices very well before having three months off - over the period of terrible hard ground we have had. He returned to eventing at Aston - and so far has run three novices double clear, placed in all, and an IN double clear, placed also. He is a freak of nature, and finds it all so easy. There is such a thing as pulling up - if he's not comfortable at Intermediate now, I'm sure that will happen.

He is checked over by the vet at least once a month - and the vet also works with the farrier every time he is shod, to maintain perfect foot balance. He was even blood tested last week to check his fitness levels and his health, and his vet is involved fully in his feeding and training, so we are giving him the best chance to be 100% at every outing. How many owners are this concientious about their horses health?

Regarding the jockey's record - I had a serious accident eight years ago, which cut short my career. in 2006 and 2007 I ran a few intro's on young horses - to see how I was doing physically. The answer was not great. I then took time out for treatment - and was allowed to begin competing in July of last year. BE and my doctors are heavily involved in the decisions made as to whether I compete or not- and the answer is sometimes no, so we withdraw them. I train and have treatment every week. To ensure that I am at my best physically whilst competing this horse, we have elected to finish the season riding only him - so I can concentrate fully on being at my best to help him out. I do not push every horse I ride to do this - and I'm more than happy dropping them back a level. The other horse that I have been competing this year is a seven year old, who started BE the same time as this horse. We were careful producing him - and he was dropped back a level last year before returning to novice this season. Our careful and thorough producing shows in his results.

Quite simply each horse is an individual - and the individual we are talking about in this thread is a seriously special horse, and an abberation of nature!! When he's not in work he is a nightmare, and continually gets cast and causes trouble. In work and competing he is a dream to handle - at 18hh , with me being 5'3, there is no way that I could force him into performing if he didn't like it. It's his choice - and at times he is so mature he makes me feel like the inexperienced one. I may not have been out competing day in day out for the last however many years, but we put the work in at home which has shown in the consistency of our results.

Hopefully now everyone can base their opinions on a background of fact - but Gabbana, please keep the discussions as to any problems between the breeder and the owner out of the public domain, its only fair.
 
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