Fixing a head problem?

[NewForestPonyRider]

Hello, first time poster here.
My mum currently has a Welsh section D on loan who puts his head so low down, she feels like she’s riding a headless horse! He’s very strong and not reactive to any aids to slow/stop in canter apart from my mum’s voice saying “steady” which will eventually make him slow to a trot and then walk.
We had him on loan for 2 years before and he was an angel who didn’t do this, he was fast but not nasty in anyway. His owner took the piss during the ”full loan” and kept insisting on riding him throughout the 2 years. My mum has always ridden in a snaffle bit, and he goes much better in this. I’ve ridden him in one, my friend who does BSJ on the regular, even my novice rider boyfriend had good control! However the owner has insisted on using a kimblewick and now in more recent times a pelham with a curb rein. Since we’ve had him back and she’s not been involved, the horse is quite relaxed in the snaffle until he’s asked to trot, then boom, chin on chest, even with loose reins. We’ve seen him canter in the field with my horse and he canters with his head in quite a natural position.
He‘s had the full checks done as he’s suffered 3 accidents in the past 2 years, the most recent was about 6 months ago where he needed scans and a chiropractor. Each accident happened under the owner’s control as they’re quite a manic rider. 1. Fell down a manhole 2. Jumped a 5 bar gate into a gravel car park and cut legs open 3. Rode in the school after Hurting lower back and left dragging back legs in field.
Hes been passed off by chiropractor and vet for hacking, but not for jumping (which my mum doesn’t want to do anyway).
He becomes very nervous of people after the owner has been to visit (which is only for riding as he was on full livery). It proved impossible to get his turnout on one evening in winter when the night hit -4 as he was so stressed and panicked.
He is ok now and runs to greet my mum everyday. We took him back on loan a couple of months ago (during his recover) as the owner has gone out to Ibiza for the entire summer.
As I said, he has passed full checks with chiro and the vet (teeth checked etc) and the owner’s dad has had the tack checked too.
Any tricks or tips for getting his head up again? As I said, he didn’t do this when we first had him on loan, it’s a new thing learnt in the year he’s gone back.

 

[SpeedyPony]

It sounds like he's learned to evade the bit by pulling his head into his chest, which suggests to me that he's been ridden by someone quite heavy-handed and is nervous of the bit causing discomfort.
Might be worth trying with a milder snaffle (rubber/leather bits can offer a softer feel) or even riding in a headcollar, if you've somewhere safe to do so. If he'll accept a contact in a headcollar or a mild bit you should be able to teach him to trust the riders hands again, although it will likely be a long process. I wouldn't push for too much contact all at once, ride him forward into the barest feel of the reins at first and see if he'll settle before trying for something more consistent. If he's been hauled around, he might have to relearn to drop into the bridle himself, rather than having his head pulled into position, so riding from the seat more than the hands will help with that.
You say you've had him checked, which is good, but I'd also keep on top of regular back/teeth checks, given his history, as horses are very good at masking lameness and discomfort, so as he settles you might see some issues that were masked by stress at first.

 

[Mudfukkle]

Poor pony sounds like he's been through a lot. Welshies can be very sensitive. At least he's in good hands now.
Tottaly agree with SpeedyPony he's learnt to evade due to pain, so I would suggest trying bitless, there are plenty of options around. Elaine Heney is a good one to follow on FB, she has very sensitive methods. He may need plenty of ground work too to continue gaining trust.

 

[Zuzan]

This isn't really something that can fixed via a forum .. you need an instructor on the ground who can help you re-school your Mum's WC .. Have a look at the Ecole de Légèreté (Philippe Karl) EdL UK has a number of instructors to be honest this is the only school that has a particular methodolgy that effectively and kindly can correct this evasion (you are right in your suposition that use of the Pelham has been instrumental but as posted above it sounds like someone with heavy hands has used it) ..

 

[NewForestPonyRider]

Thank you SpeedyPony and Mudfukkle. Yes, definitely now we’re back in control we are going to have a regular check up. My mum is very at to him and even things like the farrier were rare when we didn’t have him on loan (he lives at the same yard as my horse so we see him everyday regardless). When we got him back on loan, my mum had his shoes removed (it had been 16 weeks since fitting the shoes) and he actually had bruised heels and frog! He’s been without shoes since but my mum was thinking of fronts next trim (we keep them on a grassy farm, so he’s not on roads right now). We’ve only tacked him up twice, so it’s still early days, plenty of time for gentle riding to bring him back
It’s probably worth noting his owner is unemployed so doesn’t have funds (hence her dad getting the tack checked/ paying vet and chiropractor bills).

 

[NewForestPonyRider]

Zuzan, thanks for that suggestion, we’ll look into that further. Yes, totally agree with the heavy hands and Pelham. My mum and I haven’t personally used the Pelham. We use an egg butt snaffle. My friend who does BSJ has ridden him in both and much preferred the snaffle, but again he still bends his head.
Ive ridden with the owner a few times and witnessed her methods of “stop” - a lot of sharp tugs on both sets of reins towards the sides of her hips.
He seems to listen a lot as ”steady” makes him slow and collect himself, still with this bend

 

[NewForestPonyRider]

Thank you SpeedyPony and Mudfukkle. Yes, definitely now we’re back in control we are going to have a regular check up. My mum is very at to him and even things like the farrier were rare when we didn’t have him on loan (he lives at the same yard as my horse so we see him everyday regardless). When we got him back on loan, my mum had his shoes removed (it had been 16 weeks since fitting the shoes) and he actually had bruised heels and frog! He’s been without shoes since but my mum was thinking of fronts next trim (we keep them on a grassy farm, so he’s not on roads right now). We’ve only tacked him up twice, so it’s still early days, plenty of time for gentle riding to bring him back
It’s probably worth noting his owner is unemployed so doesn’t have funds (hence her dad getting the tack checked/ paying vet and chiropractor bills).

My mu is very attached to him***

 

[Zuzan]

Zuzan, thanks for that suggestion, we’ll look into that further. Yes, totally agree with the heavy hands and Pelham. My mum and I haven’t personally used the Pelham. We use an egg butt snaffle. My friend who does BSJ has ridden him in both and much preferred the snaffle, but again he still bends his head.
Ive ridden with the owner a few times and witnessed her methods of “stop” - a lot of sharp tugs on both sets of reins towards the sides of her hips.
He seems to listen a lot as ”steady” makes him slow and collect himself, still with this bend

Yes he's learnt to evade the pain.. EdL will teach you and him a way of contact that doesn't cause pain and is purely about communication without force. EdL as a standard use Fulmer snaffles .. until a horse has reached a level where a double bridle can be used.

 

[NewForestPonyRider]

Ohh, that sounds really good. I’m looking to get an instructor in for me and my new forest too!

 

[Zuzan]

Ohh, that sounds really good. I’m looking to get an instructor in for me and my new forest too!

There's a facebook group for UK EdL who can point you to your nearest instructor .. or if you google Ecole de Légèreté it should point you to the UK website as well..

 

[AFB]

Can't offer any advice but what an awful situation - is the owners dad aware of how she handles the horse/able to do anything to help this being a problem again when she returns from Ibiza?

 

[GrassChop]

Oh bless him. It does sound like he's had someone very heavy handed using a strong bit with the chain too tight and he's used to evading it.
Hopefully in time he will realise that you haven't got that on him anymore. I expect someone will have better suggestions but could you just work on walking him around and asking him to stand several times gently using the snaffle so that he realises that the pressure doesn't come from a chain anymore?

 

[NewForestPonyRider]

Can't offer any advice but what an awful situation - is the owners dad aware of how she handles the horse/able to do anything to help this being a problem again when she returns from Ibiza?

Its complicated! He’s the most kind hearted person you’ll meet, and worries about the horse constantly… but he’s also admitted he’s very weak and finds it hard to say no to her.
Hes just (quoted from him, not trying to be mean) “growing a spine” and told her if she wants to ride the horse he bought, she needs to change her stance with him.

 

[NewForestPonyRider]

Oh bless him. It does sound like he's had someone very heavy handed using a strong bit with the chain too tight and he's used to evading it.
Hopefully in time he will realise that you haven't got that on him anymore. I expect someone will have better suggestions but could you just work on walking him around and asking him to stand several times gently using the snaffle so that he realises that the pressure doesn't come from a chain anymore?

thankyou! That’s a really good idea, keep it slow at first. My mum just wants a happy hacker, nothing to compete with. He’s 20 now, and she had a shire for 23 years that she did all that with (lived til 27)

He also blunt refuses to move unless my horse is with him, it’s like he’s lost confidence almost?

Honestly, at the end of the day, my mum said she’d just keep him as a companion and the dad is more than happy to leave the horse in our care. He’s in his late 60’s and not in the best health, so he can’t physically take on the horse care himself, however he visits everyday and brings carrots for both horses (mine too), funds food, medical bills, livery, farrier, etc. He won’t take any money towards care.

 

[AFB]

Its complicated! He’s the most kind hearted person you’ll meet, and worries about the horse constantly… but he’s also admitted he’s very weak and finds it hard to say no to her.
Hes just (quoted from him, not trying to be mean) “growing a spine” and told her if she wants to ride the horse he bought, she needs to change her stance with him.

Tricky - he's on side and aware at least, lets hope that spine grows well and he handles her properly.

 

[NewForestPonyRider]

Tricky - he's on side and aware at least, lets hope that spine grows well and he handles her properly.

Fingers crossed!

 

[fredflop]

My advice would be get checks done yourself on saddle, teeth and back. Also worth getting a bit/bridle fitter in to make sure everything is a good as it can be.

 

[rabatsa]

Teach him to slow and stop from a pull on a neck strap. Takes all the pressure away from his head. Start from a walk and practice many times before from a trot. Ask very gently to trot and ask for the walk, with the neck strap within a few steps. Practice until he is happy before going faster.

 

[NewForestPonyRider]

Thank you Fredflop, best to double check

Thank you rabatsa, that’s a much gentler approach

 

[Arzada]

I have sent you a PM

 

[poiuytrewq]

It sounds like he's learned to evade the bit by pulling his head into his chest, which suggests to me that he's been ridden by someone quite heavy-handed and is nervous of the bit causing discomfort.
Might be worth trying with a milder snaffle (rubber/leather bits can offer a softer feel) or even riding in a headcollar, if you've somewhere safe to do so. If he'll accept a contact in a headcollar or a mild bit you should be able to teach him to trust the riders hands again, although it will likely be a long process. I wouldn't push for too much contact all at once, ride him forward into the barest feel of the reins at first and see if he'll settle before trying for something more consistent. If he's been hauled around, he might have to relearn to drop into the bridle himself, rather than having his head pulled into position, so riding from the seat more than the hands will help with that.
You say you've had him checked, which is good, but I'd also keep on top of regular back/teeth checks, given his history, as horses are very good at masking lameness and discomfort, so as he settles you might see some issues that were masked by stress at first.

This! My old loan horse also put his nose on his chest to evade.
I can’t imagine he was ever ridden by anyone heavy handed and he was so good there’d really have been no reason for anyone to do so.
His owner told me a big fat rubber snaffle would help and it did.

 

[NewForestPonyRider]

This! My old loan horse also put his nose on his chest to evade.
I can’t imagine he was ever ridden by anyone heavy handed and he was so good there’d really have been no reason for anyone to do so.
His owner told me a big fat rubber snaffle would help and it did.

Oh that’s fantastic! I’m glad it helped. Thank you for the confirmation - honestly, when we had this horse on loan a couple of years ago, he didn’t do this. He’s definitely got a need for speed but he could easily be slowed down just by saying “steady” or a little squeeze of the ring finger on the reins… and he’d still keep his head neutral! We hate to think of him in pain

Update: we’ve had the saddle/bridle fitter and osteo out today (osteo is a reoccurring appointment) and a teeth appointment on Monday. Fitter was happy with saddle, but made a Couple of adjustments to bridle and also suggested a rubber bit, but nothing severe, just stick to as mild as possible. Osteo gave him a good stretch out and was otherwise happy with progress. He‘s getting this weekend off so possibly back to physical stuff later on next week

 

[poiuytrewq]

Oh that’s fantastic! I’m glad it helped. Thank you for the confirmation - honestly, when we had this horse on loan a couple of years ago, he didn’t do this. He’s definitely got a need for speed but he could easily be slowed down just by saying “steady” or a little squeeze of the ring finger on the reins… and he’d still keep his head neutral! We hate to think of him in pain

Update: we’ve had the saddle/bridle fitter and osteo out today (osteo is a reoccurring appointment) and a teeth appointment on Monday. Fitter was happy with saddle, but made a Couple of adjustments to bridle and also suggested a rubber bit, but nothing severe, just stick to as mild as possible. Osteo gave him a good stretch out and was otherwise happy with progress. He‘s getting this weekend off so possibly back to physical stuff later on next week

I think In my case the horse was so sensitive that anything with any movement caused him to duck behind. He hunted in a straight bar rubber snaffle that was bendy and terrifying ? however he was braver and accepted the contact so much better. I was surprised as it was never a bit I’d naturally think of trying.
Good luck with it all!