PapaFrita
Well-Known Member
Asking for a friend. Horse has recently gone unshod, she's perfectly sound, but what's going on here? I thought maybe an old fungal infection?
'Flaking' hooves
- Thread starter PapaFrita
- Start date
A Guilding
Well-Known Member
It has had seedy toe. I generally re-sect that, or at least window it at the top so meds can be applied. I did one at the vets last week on x-ray you can see how far up the separation extends. On yours it probably extends to the top of that crack.
Erin
Well-Known Member
PapaFrita
Well-Known Member
Thank you. Will pass on the info (not my horse) What's the usual treatment or should she (owner) get the vet out?
Oh, what causes it? Is it fungal?
A Guilding
Well-Known Member
Personally I recomend the vet and the farrier be present together, even if to decide that no action is the best course of action.
amandap
Well-Known Member
I was about to post that it is worth looking at mineral intake imo. Seedy toe ime usually forms a hole in the white line (between wall and sole) not shelly walls.
A Guilding
Well-Known Member
The sole wall junction has worn back to nothing, whether the problem is nutritional, mechanical fungal or bacterial or all of the above, the dorsal wall has all the properties of chocolate in this horse and the separation is ongoing. I am all in favour of doing nothing but I will bet a pound to a penny in the current climate that separation will be full of minerals but not ones its ingested. until its resected or windowed that will continue. And I do agree the horn looks poor.
PapaFrita
Well-Known Member
What's the sole wall junction?
The climate here is very VERY dry. It rains only occasionally and we have very little mud all year. We're now going into winter which will be even drier. Is this relevant?
A Guilding
Well-Known Member
I did think the ground looked dry
Its the corner that is made up by the sole, the white line and the wall.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
I *think* black beastie posted some pics of her old lads feet that were flaking like that... in a very wet scotland at the time! I don't know if that has resolved or not but might be worth a pm. Is it just the one hoof?
Is the bar overlaying on the sole shot?
Is the bar overlaying on the sole shot?
PapaFrita
Well-Known Member
I did think the ground looked dry
Ah, I see. Thanks
PapaFrita
Well-Known Member
It's all 4 feet but worse in RF. I think the bar is high, but not overlaying... I'm not sure though...
ester
Not slacking multitasking
fwiw the bar was just an observation, I think I have read that high bars tend to appear for reasons of support when frogs aren't great but that if overlaying even the minimal trim peeps will trim as they can cause extra pressure and discomfort. Anyone welcome to correct me on that though!
amandap
Well-Known Member
I can see a wide white line but perhaps I'm not seeing clearly. I do think the hoof shows probable dietary problems (excess sugars and mineral imbalance or deficiency) but I am not a professional.
The heels look a bit high too but the horse is sound so high heels may be needed. The stress rings (that also dip at the heels) point to excess sugars in the diet to me. I personally wouldn't like to see a resection of the whole dorsal wall. What support and protection is left? If the white line is infected perhaps a soak in something like cleantrax would be a less invasive approach.
The horse doesn't happen to have Connemara in it's blood lines does it? I doubt it in Argentina.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
I think it was this thread I remember of BBS they don't look quite how I remembered them in my head though
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=593174
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=593174
PapaFrita
Well-Known Member
I can see a wide white line but perhaps I'm not seeing clearly. I do think the hoof shows probable dietary problems (excess sugars and mineral imbalance or deficiency) but I am not a professional.
I personally wouldn't like to see a resection of the whole dorsal wall. What support and protection is left? If the white line is infected perhaps a soak in something like cleantrax would be a less invasive approach.
The horse doesn't happen to have Connemara in it's blood lines does it? I doubt it in Argentina.
That's very interesting. To my inexperienced eye, the white line looks pretty tight (in RL) aside from the obvious flaking hoof looks pretty good and of course she IS sound. Horse is at the same place as mine are and get the same diet; grazing and alfalfa although I know this particular person is v fond of giving carrots. Could carrots be the source of the sugar? The horse is, from what I've been told, half TB, half Criollo (or Criollo x)
PapaFrita
Well-Known Member
Those don't look so bad, to me.
What I'm intrigued about is the fact that the mare had shoes on until about 5-6 weeks ago... and the farrier either never noticed or thought to say anything about it.... I had a low opinion of him anyway (as he's very sloppy; all feet different shapes/lengths) and this bolsters what I thought.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
no I agree they don't, more chipping than the flaking the mare is getting.
(ps mine doesn't get carrots!)
(ps mine doesn't get carrots!)
TwoStroke
Well-Known Member
Looks like delamination/hoof wall separation to me. The white line is stretched (a tight w/l should be no thicker than a credit card). I would also say dietary problems - possibly dietary sugars and/or mineral imbalances. There are instances where hoof wall separation syndrome is genetic, however. My friend's horse had this before going barefoot... a few months on a decent balancer and it went.
I wouldn't resect it!
I wouldn't resect it!
PapaFrita
Well-Known Member
Nor do mine
A Guilding
Well-Known Member
No you probably wouldnt and you would be wrong! Have you ever x-rayed feet like this? The x-ray would be white where the separation is with crap up there. The stratum exterum/medium is not attached and not functional. It is trapping a dirt and bacteria, it isnt weight bearing and is serving no purpose except to ruin your chances of fixing it with feeding. your prescriptive treatment of all situations is reflective of your lack of experience.You read it in books so it must be right, and all else is wrong.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
It doesn't look to me like it's in the white line, and since I thought seedy toe was only used to describe a white line infection I'd call that hoof wall separation myself. I've had it in two horses and I remove it back to well attached wall, but I've never seen it go that high.
A friend of mine, a pro trimmer, is convinced it's a lack of protein issue. In the two cases I've had the horses were both on poor quality diets and it resolved in a few months on decent food.
In connemaras it's genetic and I am one of several people to have reported it in a German warmblood.
It may be relevant, given your climate, that the advice for connemaras with the syndrome is that they do much better if the feet are kept wet.
A friend of mine, a pro trimmer, is convinced it's a lack of protein issue. In the two cases I've had the horses were both on poor quality diets and it resolved in a few months on decent food.
In connemaras it's genetic and I am one of several people to have reported it in a German warmblood.
It may be relevant, given your climate, that the advice for connemaras with the syndrome is that they do much better if the feet are kept wet.
PapaFrita
Well-Known Member
It isn't in the white line. Isn't alfalfa full of protein? This what they eat, in addition to fairly thin grazing.
Interesting about keeping the feet wet.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
I don't know if I buy the protein argument myself, but I do think it can be helped/resolved with a good balanced diet. Do they only get alfalfa? Any supplements?
It's the only foot condition I know where the recommendation is to turn the horse out in a bog!
amandap
Well-Known Member
Alfalfa is high in calcium so the calcium phosporous ratio can be out. I think alfalfa is low in methionine generally but ok in lysine. High protein diets aren't necessarily good as it puts strain on the kidneys I believe.
That's interesting about a bog! lol I have reclaimed bog here and it is terrible for hooves. I wonder if the acidity is a factor as well as the grass.
ps. Oh and carrots aren't helpful if fed in any quantity. They are high in sugar and some horses don't tolerate even one a day.
That's interesting about a bog! lol I have reclaimed bog here and it is terrible for hooves. I wonder if the acidity is a factor as well as the grass.
ps. Oh and carrots aren't helpful if fed in any quantity. They are high in sugar and some horses don't tolerate even one a day.
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TwoStroke
Well-Known Member
I'm not a vet, so I haven't personally x-rayed any feet! I have seen x-rays of hooves like this, however (and seen the hooves in the flesh). There was nothing of what you describe on the x-ray because, like these hooves, the problem wasn't the white line. The hooves I'm talking about resolved quickly with a correct diet.
You know nothing about me, A Guilding, so please don't make assumptions as to where I'm getting my information. I would also suggest a little humility on your part wouldn't go amiss - you can't diagnose everything based on some pictures on the internet, and to use your 'authority' as a farrier to suggest you always know what's wrong with a hoof just by looking at a photo is misleading and can cause people to make some bad decisions.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
A Guilding (or any other farriers) can you please explain your different interpretation as I don't understand.
PapaFrita
Well-Known Member
Alfalfa and grazing, plus carrots sometimes, as far as I'm aware.
amandap
Well-Known Member
If I could draw on photos I would draw on what I see as the white line. Can anyone do it? To me on the solar shot only wall is missing at the toe the wl looks intact all the way round the hoof to me. It could be dodgy at the quarters but hard to tell. I also thought seedy toe was infected/eaten white line at the toe. Anywhere else and it's called white line disease as far as I know.
PF can you get forage balancers over there?
PF can you get forage balancers over there?
PapaFrita
Well-Known Member
White line looks OK to me too. I'll see if I can put an arrow where I think it is
I know we can get vitamin supplements, I have no idea if there is anything specifically designed to balance alfalfa and/or oats (not that these get oats) but will pass suggestions on to the owner.