Flat backs and saddling advice... help!!

[AbbeyandApache1]

Right as hinted at in the title... my 13hh traditional cob has a flat back, meaning that his saddle slops about all over his back. It has been specially fitted by a certified saddle fitter and is synthetic.
I m telling you this because iam fed up with having his ears in my lap when going down hill, or having the saddle pointing diagnally to one particular shoulder. I dont think he needs a crupper, as this only really happens when going down really steep hills, perhaps a grippier numnah... any recommendations?

 

[hobgoblin]

A cheap easy and quick fix that will stop any saddle slipping is a chamois leather like the ones you wash your car with wet and well wrung out placed directly on your horses back then place pads etc as usual might be worth a try if your saddles well fitting , could just need re flocking though?

 

[AbbeyandApache1]

Dont think so as its fairly new... so should need reflocking.. also is a CAIR one... no traditional flocking probs...

 

[Janette]

If it moves as much as you describe, I would have the fit looked at again.
Also - is your horse asymmetrical? I have just had my saddle re-fitted because it was diving over her left shoulder, and the saddle-fitter said that she was more muscled on her right diagonal than her left. This caused the saddle to look as you describe.

ETA - CAir can be re-flocked - they put the flocking underneath the cair. At least they did when I used a Cair saddle.

 

[AbbeyandApache1]

Ahaaa! Will look into that. Thanks a bundle!

 

[Cuppatea]

for a non slip pad under the numnah, you cant go wrong with this:
http://www.saddlery.biz/racing-equipment/all-racing-equipment/neoprene-racing-pad.html
However, it doesnt really sound like the saddle fits very well, maybe try an old fashioned traditional style rather than a new style...

 

[AbbeyandApache1]

cheers for that do you think that numnah would fit my fat cob though??

 

[Marley&Me]

A suber pad could be the answer. Cheaper direct from David Ahn.

But I would definitely question the fit. Cair makes me think it is a wintec, which are notoriously a bad fit for wide cobs. The other thing is that traditional cobs change shape soooo often (daily sometimes!) depending on how much grass they hadve eaten, that a treed saddle can be hardwork and only fit one day in every 10.

I would for all wide flat back type recommend a treeless saddle. Unless you are planning on jumping a course of more than 2ft 9 or so it will be fine. There should be very little slippage and they fit every day as the changes in width have no effect on the tree.

I have a wide flat backed traditional cob in one, and he also has assymetry too. A treed saddle is never gonna fit him...I have tried several. But the Barefoot Cheyenne I have him in fits perfectly and doesnt slip when on him, though block or step is needed to mount. It has the Physio pad under it which is non slip. I love it.

 

[helbe]

I tried many saddles on my flat backed low withered mare and now use a Barnsby grip pad its brilliant and my saddle doesnt move atall where before it sounded like yours we were everywhere but in the right place!

 

[AbbeyandApache1]

Yeah the saddle is a wintec wide one... obviously the person who fitted the saddle, although is qualified has no idea! What a t***. Honestly. Oh well, will have to look into buying another saddle, dont particularly want to have to buy a treeless one though, i hate the look of them..

 

[Cuppatea]

cheers for that do you think that numnah would fit my fat cob though??

it is basically a square of neoprene an goes under your numnah so will fit anything as it only really needs to be touching under the saddle to work.
Do you have a master saddler near you? They tend to be the best for looking for saddles as they usually know who has what for sale and usually fit them too.
Wintecs and cobs dont often mix very well...

 

[sbloom]

Synthetic trees cost a lot to produce and tend to be made for the mass market - so that the heavy investment is covered by high sales. They are not known for fitting the most extreme shapes, nor for being the most stable, which is what you need for very wide horses. So, Wintec certainly isn't especially know for fitting cobs, plus see this:

http://saddlefitter.blogspot.com/2011/09/changeable-gullets-details.html

The Thorowgood cob works for some. However, many of these aren't really working on the horses they're bought for - yesterday I went out to a Quarterhorse in a TG cob - it was a smidge narrow but the worst problem was how perched it was on the horse's back, and too curvy from from front to back. A wider tree would have dropped in front causing the saddle to rock from front to back even more than it was from the excessive curvature!

I also have no idea how upright the rails of bars are - the front to back parts of the tree that you sit on, these must be flat from side to side - having a normal saddle in a very wide fitting will not much alter the angle of these. The result is perching and rolling, coupled with possible pressure points. The second very wide horse I saw yesterday had a saddle that looked like an okay fit - a Falcon GP - but I suspect it was the rails that he was objecting to. Once he had a flat enough tree, that was wide in the head, and slightly narrower in the tree angle than the too wide Falcon that he had been in, he went the best he had since the owner had had him and some bahvioural issues he had been developing started to improve as we went through the fitting process.

So, the main thing is to say that stability IS as important as pressure points. A saddle fits if it fits. And that means staying put. Even a saddle fitter who thinks that fitting a stationary horse would agree that if a saddle moves out of the proper plave, it cannot posssibly fit that new spot if it fitted where it was! I've seen massive dents carved in horse's backs by unstable saddles.

I think you need to go back to the fitter, and consider asking for your money back. There is a chance of course that shimming (better than flocking, Cair is not recommended for the addition of flock) might make it work, but I can't see it personally.

I fit leather traditional treed saddles of which there are some options, besides Native Pony that I fit - you don't need to go treeless but you will need to spend more money. You MIGHT pick something up second hand, but if it's hard to find saddles to fit these shapes new, of course it will be even worse second hand!

Ideas would include the Ideal H&C (others have saddles on that tree eg Barnsby) and the Haflinger tree from GFS. Again, others may use it as well. We have several options depending on flatness, width, and saddle model.

 

[Marley&Me]

I did not like the look of the treeless at first either, but when my horse so clearly moved beautifully under it and was happing and walking out and the mounting issue I had at first disappeared I didnt care what it looked like.
Having said that, I did a dressage test in it a few month back and no one said a thing.

If you like the more traditional version of the treeless google the Barefoot London, or the Barefoot Cherokee (though if you are under about 5ft 5, you may find these of no use).

The main issue with the Wintecs (IMHO) is that the interchangable gullet bars are too long. They pinch behind the shoulder and though wide enough over the wither are too narrow at the shoulder, causing twisting and riding either forwards or backwards.

The thorowgood cobs are good (better) but still twisted on my cob. If a TG Cob turns out ok then Kent and Masters are stunning and simply the leather version of the TG.

Finally if you have any asymmetry which it sounds like a possibility since it twists, then a suber pad will really help. Shaking the beans to the narrower side slightly before putting it on (damp is best for non slippage).

 

[jackbeauty]

I had exact same problem.
14.1 chunky irish cob with zero wither! Table back.
Wintecs didnt fit him. he came to me with one. & I even bought the wintec wide hoping it would fit.
The only thing that fitted in the end, was Thorowgood T4 cob plus & a Trekker treeless.
I also bought a anti-slip numnah just incase!

 

[marlyclay]

You need to read up on saddle fitting so that you can have a better knowledge of what shape your cob really is . I have had similar issues and found that some so called saddle fitters are well and truly out of their depth when faced with a challenging shaped equine!!!!
The horses pain free back and saddle fit by joyce Harman is a brilliant book..it will help you understand your saddle fit issues and hopefully then you will be in a better position to query your fitter when they come to fit saddles for you again.
Make sure you take a template of horses back,wither etc....a good saddler should always do this before fitting .But you can easily do it for yourself with a flexi curve...its not that hard honest.The book shows you how.
Your cob may have a very forward girth groove ,which means that any saddle will move forwards no matter what.If this is so ,the answer may be in a different girth system ,longer billet straps ,maybe a point strap, a leather donut on girth straps to help prevent the saddle being pulled forward...its all explained in this book.You should be able to get a copy from the library or on ebay.
I was very frustrated at the lack of help i recieved when i needed a saddle for my hard to fit cob x tb.He is only 5 so will change shape and will need REGULAR checks as he matures. In the end i decided to try and inform myself as best i can,then i can work with a good saddler and do what is best for my boy.After all saddles are not cheap,you should NOT accept second best and a bad fitting one can be a nightmare and ruin a horses back for life.

 

[SophieLouBee]

I have an old American jumping saddle, that is flat, and is ace for things with flat backs, I also have a stubben jumping saddle that does the same. First option is a good cheap option if you can find one!

I guess it's the wide that you are gonna have a problem with, as I have never seen any of these old style flat saddles that are wide.

Sorry, wasn't much help was I really. Recommend the T4 though too, lot's of people I know seem to rate it!

 

[sbloom]

The T4 Cob doesn't fit the very flattest backs for all sorts of reasons, though I often recommend it as a starting point. Old saddles are not only too narrow in tree width but they are also narrow in the gullet - check that the panels clear the spinal processes at the back. Usually need a minimum of three fingers' width in the gullet. Also jumping saddles do impact on the shoulder. Now this may not cause any problems at all with some horses, but the bigger the shoulder, eg cobs, the more likely the forward flaps are to cause a problem. Not that many cobs can take a jumping saddle, even if the trees tend to be flatter.

Not all good fitters will take a tracing BEFORE they fit. A tracing can lead you up the garden path as many horses don't fit the width that their tracing indicates. Especially if they are in show condition or overweight when the tracing can be at least one width fitting too wide.

Intrigued by a leather donut on girth straps. Never needed one so far!

 

[Miss L Toe]

I am selling my Wintec as the panels are longer than most saddles, and I
found the saddle tilted upward at the rear , my boy has a normal length of back, but has a level spine., ie standardbred not native pony.
A cob by definition is short backed, so the Wintec would tend to cause problems particularly if the rider needs a bigger size.
I now have an older [1985] Jeffres event saddle, which is only 17 inch, but it fits him perfectly, and it was previously on an arab, which is similar in shape.
I have to say that he is narrow at "my knees" but does not need a narrow saddle, he takes a medium fit..
for stability you may consider a fourth girth strap, ask the saddler about this.

 

[Suby2]

The solution which was best for my rotund 14hh pony was a Thorowgood endurance saddle with a cob Thorowgood non-slip numnah (sadly I don't think they make the numnahs any more). Another thing that I found made a difference was the girth. The Thorowgood one became slippy when she sweated and after a bit of trial and error I found the Aerborn humane girth the best.