flat feet - any ideas?

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spacefaer

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I've got a horse with really broad flat feet - flat soles and very very slow growth of new horn. He gets about 1-2mm growth between shoeings.

He can't cope with this hard ground (and doesn't really like the concussion of road work) and my farrier has talked about this new stuff that comes in a tube which is rubbery and fills the space between the hoof and the shoe - goes across the sole. However, it's about £40 a tube and he reckons it'll take a tube per foot (!!) Has anyone had any success with it?

He's been on NAF pro feet which has improved the quality of the horn, but not the growth. Best thing for him IMHO would be fresh grass but the ground is too hard for hom to go out comfortably......

any bright ideas???
 
is it vettec sole guard your farrier has suggested? - mine said at my last shoeing (mine has flattest feet ever- has navicular - her toes are so short now its unreal so makes foot look really wide) did i want to try it as she is unlevel and unsound at moment - he said that would only cost £20 as he didnt put anything on top to make money as its only for a few horses and if it helps... so check what it is - i havent had it this time - we took off her wedges instead to see how she goes - but next time i am 99% certain i am having her shoes removed and going barefoot.
 
btw - my horse rarely grows much on front - dont know if related to flat feet and thin soles - yet hinds do have decent heels, and a bit of concavity and they grow really well. he had to actually take a fair bit hinds this time - yet fronts are only ever rasped.
 
I started off with bar shoes with my horse, at £80 a time, then the gel was suggested at another £100 odd quid.

Saved myself a fortune going barefoot, and now have a lovely sound horse again with feet like rock!

(this took time.... commitment not to give up, when he looked crippled at first..... and a belief it would work)
 
Shod hooves grow much slower than barefoot ones as a rule as barefoot feet grow in accordance with the stimulation they receive.

Putting pads on the horse may help short term, but it is not dealing with the cause of the problem.

Rather than covering his sole up - perhaps it would be better to ask why he is so sore?

If the cause is footiness, then the spring grass will only make things worse. What is he fed on? Is he getting enough magnesium? Does he have a hidden infection?

When you pick his foot up and press on his sole - does it give or is it solid? Does he have any pulses?

I am not an expert. trimmer or a farrier but these are things I would be asking if it was my horse.
 
He's sore because his feet are broad and flat with no horn wall to stand on. Either side of his frog (at the point of the frog) is an area which touches the ground rather than the frog.

so far as I can see, he needs more wall to lift his sole off the ground? I was thinking of some protection in the short term while I try and get the growth. He was very very thin when we got him a year ago and I think we are still paying the price of his nutrient deficiency then.

why more magnesium? How does that help hoof growth?

I knew I'd get some barefoot suggestions - without being offensive, I know it works for some horses, but I would rather eat a small child than take this horse's shoes off. It would cripple him for the rest of his life.
 
Spacefaer - taking the shoes off will not criple your horse for the rest of his life, it may just provide what he needs to stimulate regrowth of a healthy foot.

There's an interesting question here that I'm asking.

If the sole is flat, what is more comfortable for a compromised sole - to allow it to get support from the ground and stimulate the hoof (accepting that you are going to get a little short term discomfort but that is unfortunately the price of getting a beter hoof) OR to continue to force a flat, and possibly thin, sole into a bridging role.

So my question is really - should a flat sole be supported all over, or only supported round the edge and have the weight of the horse presing on it. Remember ain inverted curve is weight bearing, a flat surface, supported on the periphery is not.

If shoeing him was helping him to grow a beter hoof, then he would have a better hoof.

Any discomfort he will feel turned out will be temporary - but I'm afraid that is the only way to really recover this, develop concavity and reposition P3 into a more natural higher position in the hoof capsule.

Here's a challenge for you ;) - go onto the UKNHCP forum and ask if anyone can post pictures of flat feet that have improved for taking the shoes off and providing sole stimulation.

See what you get, and then decide on the basis of evidence - not people telling you to avoid barefoot or farriers who are suspicious.

And don't eat small children, it's just not nice, you don't know where they've been.
 
brucea - I'm not anti barefoot and nor is my farrier. I understand the theory and he says the best thing for him would be to take his shoes off.

However... he cannot stand without shoes - if he loses an hind shoe, he is non-weight bearing, let alone taking his fronts off. I appreciate that his feet are compromised and, as I said, go with the theory..... but cannot take the responsibility of putting him in that much pain.

I can't give him bute/danilon as he colics.

I still don't know why magnesium would help his feet as suggested but am prepared to help in whatever (possible) way I can.

He is a 17.2 HWT hunter BTW so lots of loadbearing going on!
 
Could you try boots and pads instead of shoes? You could always experiment with the pads first so you didn't have to run to the cost of boots immediately - get some pads (they're about £7 a set) and let him stand on them for a bit when you next take his shoes off to have him shod. You could even tape them on with duck tape and walk him in them. If he was comfortable, you could then look at getting some boots, and the imprint on the pads would help you size them. I know they're not really designed to be worn all the time, but my mare has been in hers for long periods of time recently because of an operation she had on her foot and they haven't caused any problems except for preventing a bit of normal sole wear. If it was going to work, you would be able to remove the boots for a bit of time each day and hopefully build up to long periods with bare feet. From what you've said, the pads would have a similar effect to the filler stuff that would go into a shod foot, but at least you can remove them each day to check for nasties. If it didn't work, you could just go back to shoes.
 
Do you have access to a seciotn of field where the ground is softer, a sand school, or can you give him a small paddock but import sand

When my lami went out after his major episode he wa svery tnder - we had a small paddock and I introduced 10 tons of sand - big pile - he slept on the bit the sun warmed and burried his feet in the cool sand!

It worked.

I can't give him bute/danilon as he colics
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Can you try Boswellia? Loading dose for a couple of weeks to get him up to it.
If he is turned out unshod, how long until he copes? Have you given it a week? Sometimes you can get fantastic changes in a few days

mgO - I'll PM you my site - you can read about it there. Order from Metabolic horse.
 
The stuff you're talking about sounds like equithane sole pak? It did wonders for my horse although does work out expensive- I only used it for 2-3 shoeings and his feet improved no end, no lameness at all. It also forms a decent seal so the soles don't go all sweaty and gross underneath like they can with pads.

Perhaps it would be worth looking at his feed to help stimulate horn growth? I'd be inclined to go with a really good quality balancer with a good quality cube rather than dumping a lot of supplements in it- why not speak to a qualified and experienced nutritionist who has been fully trained in how to get the best out of the feed? I use Baileys, the girls there are so knowledgeable and will also recommend other brands of feed if they think they are better!

I really do hope that you don't end up eating a small child, they really can be very sickly...
 
I've got a pair of Boa boots with sock thingies for them, which are emergency cover for if he ever lost a shoe. Do they not rub if left on 24/7?

Not been turned out at the moment. He's currently walking in hand several times a day on a waxed fibresand surface as he's pulled a hamstring. Our ground is too hard to turn him out on, even if he didn't have another injury. He's also not comfortable walking on the track outside the indoor school with shoes on, let alone without them.

He's on a supplement containing boswellia - Feel Good 30 Joint & Relief - which does make a difference. (just run out and I can tell)

I'm not trying to be negative - I can see all the benefits of barefoot - however, I'm not sure he's the horse for it. He does a lot of roadwork in the winter and he's never going to hunt barefoot. If (and a very big if) I took his shoes off for the summer, he wouldn't be right in time for the autumn.

What I need is horn/wall growth to lift his soles ....... (and a magic wand!)
 
Have a look at http://www.hoofrehab.com/jessica.htm.
If he's stabled most of the time, presumably he wouldn't need to wear boots 24/7 - you could just give him a nice deep shavings bed which would support his feet, and use the boots for exercise. You might find that with boots and pads (which come in a few different densities now, so you can build a stack with really soft at the top and firmer lower down), you could actually turn him out on the hard ground which would let him move around more and help to stimulate horn growth. Nothing to stop you re-shoeing him in the autumn. Or hunting in boots (I've done xc in boots several times although nothing big as I'm a wimp).
 
spacefaer said:
However... he cannot stand without shoes - if he loses an hind shoe, he is non-weight bearing, let alone taking his fronts off. I appreciate that his feet are compromised and, as I said, go with the theory..... but cannot take the responsibility of putting him in that much pain.

I can't give him bute/danilon as he colics.

I still don't know why magnesium would help his feet as suggested but am prepared to help in whatever (possible) way I can.

He is a 17.2 HWT hunter BTW so lots of loadbearing going on!
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Really sorry to hear you are having so many problems. I think there must be some pretty big underlying issues going on here - if he's so sore as to be non weightbearing without shoes and can't cope with hard ground with shoes then something is badly wrong. Yes you could put pads under his shoes or use a gel infill but that's just masking the problem not solving it. He's got foot pain and it's not going to go away until you find out the cause. If you've cut out as much sugar from his diet as you can (any feeds with molasses/carrots/conditioning mixes/build up mixes etc) - for example by changing his feed to something like Fast Fibre plus linseed and started soaked his hay but he still remains very sore on hard ground then he might have some underlying liver problems/ulcers and/or be insulin resistant. I'd get the vet in - do some blood tests and see what they show.
 
Have you had him xrayed? If one of mine were that sore i would be wanting x rays for 2 reasons- 1) to assess foot balance in relation to internal bones and 2) to check for underlying bony issues.
i.e it might not be just a foot problem but and/or a joint problem
 
what does your own farrier say?

Equipak (which is what i think you are talking about) is excellent and usually only needed for a few shoeing cycles. It is however not £40 a tube unless your farrier is charging you £20 for labour on each tube. I charge £20 per tube which is roughly the costs covered.

I may have some thoughts for you but they would very much depend on a) which product it is you ar thinking of trying. b) your vets and farriers thoughts c) what has been tried already d) how long the problem has been going on for

Please feel free to pm me if i can be of further assitance. I am not on often enough to be sure i would be able to refind this thread.
 
He's on a conditioning cube & vegetable oil and good quality meadow hay. (as well as his joint/relief supplement already mentioned)

His stable is rubber matted with deep straw
 
spacefaer said:
He's on a conditioning cube & vegetable oil and good quality meadow hay. (as well as his joint/relief supplement already mentioned)

His stable is rubber matted with deep straw
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For example Spillers Conditioning Cubes are 20% starch content (unfortunately they don't list the sugar % but the cubes contain molasses so the sugar % won't be insignificant). The Bailey's website is terrible for not listing sugar/starch content (what are they afraid of?!) but I believe Baileys No 4 Top Line Conditioning Cubes are higher in starch/sugar than the Spillers.

For all horses, but especially one who is having the issues that yours currently is, you want to be looking at only feeding products that have a combined sugar/starch % of 10% or less. Conditioning Cubes are usually way way above this figure.

Rereading this thread you also mention he can't have bute as he gets colic - suggesting problems in his gut. Have you had him scoped for ulcers? If he digestive system is compromised (and from his background having been emaciated this could easily be the case) then he will be even less capable of digesting sugars/starch than a normal horse. Any sugars/starches that aren't digested properly will make the hind gut acidic - resulting in ulcers, colic, and toxins being released into the blood stream. It's these toxins thart attack the laminae in the feet, causing inflammation and foot pain.
 
We have previously used Equipak with Jesper with great success and paid around £20 a tube. I completely understand the position in your in having had a horse who could not go barefoot. Like yours he struggles without back shoes and when he looses a front shoe he is crippled. Unfortunately he has underlying issues (low lying pedal bones, paper thin soles and collateral ligament damage) and going barefoot would not solve these issues. We used the gel for two years during the summer months to help prevent bruising and it worked. The only problem I had was I found that it only ever lasted five weeks and so expensive shoeing bill. Good luck, you know your horse best so trust your instincts.
 
OK - couple of things to comment on.

A "solid oil" is far better absorbed in the horses gut thatn a liquid oil whic can go through and take useful stuff wiht it.

By far the best form to feed oil in is in micronised linseed (Charnwood Mills 20Kg for £24) . It is well absorbed, and contains more of the Omega 3 and 6 than the processed oils.

Now also...

Rereading this thread you also mention he can't have bute as he gets colic - suggesting problems in his gut. Have you had him scoped for ulcers? If he digestive system is compromised (and from his background having been emaciated this could easily be the case) then he will be even less capable of digesting sugars/starch than a normal horse. Any sugars/starches that aren't digested properly will make the hind gut acidic - resulting in ulcers, colic, and toxins being released into the blood stream. It's these toxins thart attack the laminae in the feet, causing inflammation and foot pain.
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This is a spin off benefit of the linseed in that it also provides a useful quantity of mucilage which soothes the whole gut lining and helps with recurrent colic.

I have a horse that had recurrent (every 4-6 weeks) colic. Twothings eliminated it - removing all cereals, and switching to linseed as a feed ingredient.

And as another spin off benefit - I never groom them, don't have to, their coats are always great. Obviously I have to do the de-mudding if needed, but never groom day to day.

Never have dry scurfy skin (was a problem) either.

I feed about 300 gr for my 16.3, 200 for the 14.2 and pony.
 
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