Flat feet & Feeding?

[dominobrown]

Now I know I am not part of the barefoot taliban But any advice would be helpful.

I have acquired a new horse, ex racer, 11 years old. He was shod just before he came, so hasn't been done by my farrier yet though he has checked the horse over.

The problem is he has very TB like flat feet in front. Also my farrier commented that he has very thin soles, little hoof wall.
Now I was wondering whether there was anything I could feed to improve his feet? Also his back feet don't seem to have grown much and the multiple nails are causing the hoof wall to crack.

I can't believe I am saying this but I would like to do away with the hind shoes at the very least.
This horse however will have been backed as a yearling and had shoes on ever since, and even worse, due he is old owners he will have been shod every 12 weeks, or whenever they could be bothered with him, leaving his feet in an awful state

 

[mandwhy]

Hmm I don't know but I would like to know what others say. The one I ride has flat soles in front despite quite good horn and is crippled when he loses a shoe, which is often!

 

[Shay]

Also not a member of the barefoot brigade....

Seems to me like you need professional advice - ideally from someone with no axe to grind. If no shoes suits the horse you should go with it. If shoes suit - go with that too.

There are loads of hoof based (as in based on improving the hoof - not containing hoof!) supplements. Your farrier might have a preference. Anything with biotin in will probably help some. Obviously you can't change what he was born with - but you may be able to make more of what you have.

Good luck!

 

[Miss L Toe]

I think you will have to feed for three or more months before you see the hoof sole and wall strengthening up where the shoe is attached, so shoeing is on the cards for a while, maybe consider taking off the hinds after six weeks if they seem strong enough. Make sure farrier does NOT pare frogs and sole severely, and you may need to buy a rasp for the edges which almost always chip.
http://www.davewilsonequestrian.com/double-ended-farriers-rasp-126-p.asp
You are aiming for healthy feet with concavity and improving the thickness of the sole.
Assuming you are out on grass, 24/7, I would recommend:
500gms Fast Fibre [Calm and Condition if thin]
100 gm micronised linseed meal
A double handful of Dengie non molassed chaff [lo alfa]
100 gms of Forageplus summer balancer
http://shop.forageplus.com/epages/es137718.sf/secc7a0701457/?ObjectPath=/Shops/es137718/Products/FPS

This should ensure you are getting essentials minerals and vitamins, the micronised linseed helps joints as well as skin and hooves, you should see a big difference in skin condition within two to four weeks.
The barefoot diet is: no sugars no molassess, no moglo, no cereals [except a few oats], cut out processed feeds and concentrate on fibre as an energy source topped up with oil which also helps conditioning.
There are several mineral supplements, which you can use, but at this stage go for the basics.
In the meantime swot up on the characteristics of good feet.
Feet First is essential reading, and there are loads of photos and blogs on Rockley Farm site.
You may struggle to get this horse barefoot, but look in to hoof boots, these are much better than years ago, and can be fitted with gel-pad inside to improve the footfall.
One thing you need to observe is the walk, you need to aim for a good heel first landing.

 

[dominobrown]

Thanks for your replies. I also agree that I shouldn't whip the shoes straight off and he would be very sore, I want to improve the condition of his feet so he will be comfortable if and when I do take shoes off.
If I don't sell him I plan to event him, and I hate hoof boots. Have used them in the past and would never use them again. Sorry :/
He is out at grass 24/7. I am really pleased with how his condition and coat has improved generally over the last 3 weeks.
He is currently fed:
Blue Chip (mollasses free), Badminton Alfalfa+ Soya oil (mollasses free), Speedi beet, and Naf Magic Calmer.

 

[Miss L Toe]

Thanks for your replies. I also agree that I shouldn't whip the shoes straight off and he would be very sore, I want to improve the condition of his feet so he will be comfortable if and when I do take shoes off.
If I don't sell him I plan to event him, and I hate hoof boots. Have used them in the past and would never use them again. Sorry :/
He is out at grass 24/7. I am really pleased with how his condition and coat has improved generally over the last 3 weeks.
He is currently fed:
Blue Chip (mollasses free), Badminton Alfalfa+ Soya oil (mollasses free), Speedi beet, and Naf Magic Calmer.

Fine, personally, I would subsitute the alfa and oil, some barefoot horse are sensitive to alfalfa, and the soya is not as good as micronised linseed imho, as it is less processed and has original fibre, I think it is cheaper too!
I feed speedy beet in winter along with the FF, but the FF is very cheap, has basic minerals and vitamins, it only takes two minutes to soak.
Make sure you are feeding the total daily requirement of vits and mins, this is the problem with a branded feed, also they contain cereals which are contra indicated.
NAF Magic is a good but expensive way of feeding magnesium and pro biotics in the long term, but excellent to help a new horse settle in. Don't forget to add salt.

 

[dominobrown]

Fine, personally, I would subsitute the alfa and oil, some barefoot horse are sensitive to alfalfa, and the soya is not as good as linseed imho.
I feed speedy beet in winter along with the FF, but the FF is very cheap, has basic minerals and vitamins, it only takes two minutes to soak.
Make sure you are feeding the total daily requirement of vits and mins, this is the problem with a branded feed, also they contain cereals which are contra indicated.

So do you not feed a chaff? I do have so calm and condition as well. How do you find out whether your horse is sensitive alfalfa? My other horse does really well on it, and gives him a little extra energy. Will look into linseed oil.
The blue chip will provide all vits and minerals?

 

[TwoStroke]

I agree with Miss L Toe, that it is advisable to wait at least 6 week after switching to a suitable diet before removing the shoes. I would also suggest hoof boots for when the shoes are off, and to keep the horse off rocks entirely - even in shoes - until you have better sole depth.

Having thin soles means that there is little protection for the pedal bone and the corium. Damage to this area can cause long lasting or even permanent damage to the horse's ability to grow sole, not to mention the pedal bone itself.

As you're clearly aware diet is a very important factor in hoof health. For a horse with severe pathologies such as this, I would advise taking a step back and looking critically at the entire diet. Non structural carbohydrates (sugar, starch and fructans) need to be kept as low as you can. A forage analysis is the best way of determining the sugar and mineral content of your hay/haylage.

If you can't do this, then providing ad lib well soaked hay is the safest option. Hard feed needs to be kept to a minimum - a molasses and cereal free base such as fast fibre, with a good mineral supplement (or a bespoke feeding plan based on a forage analysis) and if a conditioning feed is required then micronised linseed.

Also bare in mind that if the walls are flared, it is unusual to be able to gain adequate sole depth until a new, well connected hoof wall has been grown in.

That's my two penneth, anyway

 

[dominobrown]

Is the Blue chip sufficient for vits and minerals? He doesn't get any molasses or cereals so we are good and that front!
I would like to improve hoof quality before taking shoes off, as I want to keep him in work and keep him comfortable. Making him foot sore is not going to be helpful to anyone.
Unlike his previous farrier, my farrier has noticed the thinness of his soles, his hoof walls, and isn't one just to 'stick' shoes on horses. My farrier also noted that his leg conformation also affects he feet, i.e longish pasterns.
Another question... My farrier often says that leg conformation affects the shape of the hoof, yet I have never heard this mentioned in the barefoot brigade posts.

 

[TwoStroke]

Is the Blue chip sufficient for vits and minerals? He doesn't get any molasses or cereals so we are good and that front!
I would like to improve hoof quality before taking shoes off, as I want to keep him in work and keep him comfortable. Making him foot sore is not going to be helpful to anyone.
Unlike his previous farrier, my farrier has noticed the thinness of his soles, his hoof walls, and isn't one just to 'stick' shoes on horses. My farrier also noted that his leg conformation also affects he feet, i.e longish pasterns.
Another question... My farrier often says that leg conformation affects the shape of the hoof, yet I have never heard this mentioned in the barefoot brigade posts.

Your farrier is correct - if allowed, a horse's hoof will adapt to best match the horse above it. Sounds like you have a good farrier there .

I have not known any horses that do well foot-wise on Blue chip. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's not possible, but I would guess that for most grazing/forage profiles, Blue chip is too high in iron and manganese. I would suggest one of the barefoot supplements that are higher in Mg, Cu and Zn, and free from iron or manganese.

Just seen that you don't want to use hoof boots. In that case I would strongly caution against taking the horse on rough terrain, as it will be very easy to lame a horse with thin soles on rocks.

 

[criso]

If you wanted you could switch from the blue chip to the Forage plus balancer Miss L Toe mentioned, it does a similar job. Or they also do a performance balancer which contains Biotin and extras for horses in more work.

I also agree about NAF Magic, nothing wrong with it but quite an expensive way to feed magox and brewers yeast, the 2 main ingredients.

Re Alfalfa, some are sensitive, some are not. My tb is fine with it I just don't feed it at the moment as I don't need the extra protein, but if I was going to feed alfalfa I would go for the Dengie pellets which are alfalfa and nothing else. Chaffs tend to have to have alot more additives to keep them from going off.

For the Linseed get the Charnwood micronised linseed, not only better but works out cheaper than the oil.

 

[dominobrown]

Ahh right, thanks twostroke. My farrier is certainly better than the horse's old one. I have had no hoof problems since changing farrier, and now even have a barefoot horse He is also great handling the horses, especially nervous horses.

Criso- where would I get the performance balancer? And how much does it cost. All my horse are looking really well at the moment, so I must admit I am a fan of blue chip.

Where can I get magox and brewers yeast from?

 

[Miss L Toe]

I was once conventional and, in the past, have had several world class farriers to shoe my boy [very lucky locally], all mentioned his good feet, the pastern to hoof axis in particular. He is by no means a show animal, [though in my eyes very handsome].
http://www.equipodiatry.com/hoofangl.htm
Now my boy has a "twist" in his leg [never saw a farrier in his early years], this is more obvious now he is barefoot, and the hoof shape[from below] is not "perfect", however my current farrier is very happy with them, he has only been trimmed once in twelve months [long toe, unlevel hoof wall]
Another farrier who is perfectly competent, makes the feet "perfect, and my boy is un-level for a week until nature re balances them.
So, as far as I can make out the hoof pastern axis is critical for long term soundness. This cannot be achieved if the horse has under run heels and long toes.
A good farrier will work with the horse [and the owner] to make the foot stronger and better shape, all you need to do is see some of the awful pictures of under-run heels on here to see the difference between a good job and a bad one.
The hoof capsule can be "tightened up " by good feeding plus regular exercise, and also this increases concavity and thickness of the sole. It is a long term job because obviously it takes six months from start to finish, but I keep a spreadsheet of my boy, every event is recorded, so I can look back and see any hiccups, and often these correlate with growth rings on the hoof wall.
I think it is a very interesting subject, and I am astounded that that farriers don't actually get detailed training in feeding, my current farrier, always asks about my feeding regime, and in exchange he tells me about hoof balance.

 

[Miss L Toe]

Hmm I don't know but I would like to know what others say. The one I ride has flat soles in front despite quite good horn and is crippled when he loses a shoe, which is often!

Unfortunately lameness is typical of a shod TB, the shoe lifts the hoof off the ground and it becomes more sensitive, imagine if you were barefoot, after a few weeks your feet harden up, but if you currently live a city life and always wear shoes you will not manage to walk a few yards on smooth tarmac.
But you may be able to improve the flatness:
Feed high fibre lo sugars with minerals including magnesium.
Have a really good farrier
Never let hoof growth overtake the horse, ie book farrier every six weeks.

 

[Miss L Toe]

Ahh right, thanks twostroke. My farrier is certainly better than the horse's old one. I have had no hoof problems since changing farrier, and now even have a barefoot horse He is also great handling the horses, especially nervous horses.

Criso- where would I get the performance balancer? And how much does it cost. All my horse are looking really well at the moment, so I must admit I am a fan of blue chip.

Where can I get magox and brewers yeast from?

The performance balancer is for horses in hard work that are on a cereal diet, at this stage I think you should avoid cereals [and that includes most branded feeds]
http://shop.forageplus.com/epages/es137718.sf/secc7a0701457/?ObjectPath=/Shops/es137718/Products/FPP
Be wary of getting yourself in a muddle, start off with the simplest diet possible, there is no need to add individual supplements, just go for a complete and balanced mix.
I think that with one horse it is worth paying a small premium, especially with a new horse.
The idea of buying individual components seems attractive, but I tried it, found no difference in the feet, and it worked out no cheaper, I went back to buying in a premium quality balanced mineral and vitamin supplement, usually waiting for a discount and "filling my boots"

 

[dominobrown]

Wow that is very expensive!!! The balancer costs more than the horse did

 

[criso]

The performance balancer is for horse in hard work that are on a cereal diet, at this stage I think you shoud avoid cereals [and that includes most branded feeds]
http://shop.forageplus.com/epages/es137718.sf/secc7a0701457/?ObjectPath=/Shops/es137718/Products/FPP
Be wary of getting yourself in a muddle, start off with the simplest diet possible, there is no need to add individual supplements, just go for a complete and balance mix.

Actually it is recommended to feed alongside straights such as bran, sugarbeet, alfalfa or oats, only one of those is a cereal.

It has higher levels of lysine which helps in building muscle but also contains the following: -

methionine, vitamin C, thiamine, riboflavin, niacin, biotin, folic acid, vitamin B12, pyridoxine, pantothenic acid.

It also has Yeasacc in it which I think is helpful.

Agree about keeping things simple so rather than feeding the summer balancer and biotin and a pro biotic or similar, this would cover all of those.

 

[CBFan]

Wow that is very expensive!!! The balancer costs more than the horse did

Yes, but it feeds what the horse needs and will work out cheaper in the longrun without the ned for trying this supplement and that

 

[TwoStroke]

I feed the forage plus summer balancer, and really like it. The performance balancer looks fabulous, but imo is absurdly expensive (bearing in mind you feed 200g of it instead of 100g).

 

[criso]

Wow that is very expensive!!! The balancer costs more than the horse did

Yes but you have to think in terms of say keeping the speedibeet as a base (or fast fibre) and then it replaces the blue chip, the naf magic and you don't use the alfalfa chaff.

It can be cheaper to use individual items but it is more complicated.

Progressive earth on ebay do a selection of things like magox and brewers yeast in smaller quantities and also do a multi vit called pro hoof.

I go down the route of balancing to our hay and it does make a difference for us. Noticed a drop off when we ran out and to buy in different hay. But it is very fiddly.

 

[Oberon]

Now I know I am not part of the barefoot taliban But any advice would be helpful.

I have acquired a new horse, ex racer, 11 years old. He was shod just before he came, so hasn't been done by my farrier yet though he has checked the horse over.

The problem is he has very TB like flat feet in front. Also my farrier commented that he has very thin soles, little hoof wall.
Now I was wondering whether there was anything I could feed to improve his feet? Also his back feet don't seem to have grown much and the multiple nails are causing the hoof wall to crack.

I can't believe I am saying this but I would like to do away with the hind shoes at the very least.
This horse however will have been backed as a yearling and had shoes on ever since, and even worse, due he is old owners he will have been shod every 12 weeks, or whenever they could be bothered with him, leaving his feet in an awful state

Some pics of his hooves might be helpful - side view at ground level and sole view.

For a flat soled horse you always have to suspect the coffin bone is low in the hoof capsule and that the laminae may be impaired (especially if there is flaring to the wall).

Thin soles - you need to look at impaired ability to lay down correct tissue with poor diet (for his needs) and ensure the farrier doesn't scrape away too much when shoeing.

For the next few months at least, it would be wise to treat the horse like a lami prone horse and keep sugar and starch to a minimum. No bucket feed should be over 10% combined starch and sugar (Calm and Condition is 18%).
This, with a supplement with an appropriate level of nutrients and minerals will allow him to lay tissue down where he needs it.

I would also question if there is any possibility of ulcers with him?

 

[Oberon]

My farrier often says that leg conformation affects the shape of the hoof, yet I have never heard this mentioned in the barefoot brigade posts.

Then you haven't been looking hard enough. It has often been mentioned.
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=552418&highlight=pigeon+toes
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=542919&highlight=pigeon+toes
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=509148&highlight=pigeon+toes
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=496936&highlight=hoof+deviation
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=408493&highlight=hoof+deviation

Your farrier is quite right in what he says.

Traditional views are to correct the hoof so it looks like the horse is straight. Modern thinking is to allow the hoof to look wonky as long as it keep the horse sound - otherwise you are putting the strain on the joints instead.

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/hoof-balancing-dont-try-this-at-home.html

I love the way you are asking for advice yet insulting us all at the same time

 

[Miss L Toe]

So do you not feed a chaff? I do have so calm and condition as well. How do you find out whether your horse is sensitive alfalfa? My other horse does really well on it, and gives him a little extra energy. Will look into linseed oil.
The blue chip will provide all vits and minerals?

I do feed Dengie non molassed lo alfa chaff in winter, just a handful, it is tasty and adds another fibre [oat straw], but probably has preservative to prevent mould growth.
To test for alfa sensitivity one has to feed none, then add plenty.
Micronised linseed meal is not quite the same as the oil, which is processed, and more expensive!