flat, protruding soles-advice/help

smiggy

smiggy

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Have posted before on here about my poor ponys feet. Basically they just fall apart. After 9 mths of supplements and trying every shoe/hoof pad combination under the sun at vast expensive, this time after shoe came off in week 3 leaving no wall to reshoe, got farrier to pull shoes and trim.
the upper hoof wall looks fine but as it gets about 3 cm from the bottom, it just seems to seperate from the laminae and comes away in chunks. The end result is a foot that if you look underneath, has a protruding sole, not just a flat sole, the sole and frog (splodgy squashed frog) are taking all the weight, the hoof wall isnt in contact with the ground.
Are hoof boots going to help? if so any ideas which one?
Vet and farrier have no idea what cause is other than it looks like laminitis but no history of this and no active lami in the 9mths I have had him. Farrier and vet say not thrush or white line disease.
Am really getting to stage where I dont know what to do for the best for him. Even in the soft field his feet are obv sore, he is really happiest in on a shavings bed but he is only 5, cant keep him in 24/7 for ever :(
 
I recommend you get an experienced barefoot trimmer for a consultation urgently. I'm not a Trimmer but I would keep him on shavings until you can get some pads to tape on before moving him out of the stable. Pads can be bought here...
http://www.equinepodiatrysupplies.co.uk/padsGC.html or there are solemate pads which come with instructions for taping on with duck tape.

It sounds like you need to address his diet and comfort asap and the best way is have a Trimmer out to see him and advise on support for his feet and appropriate diet.
In the meantime soak his (free choice) hay for a minimum of one hour and no sweet treats or mollassed feed.

Link to sole mate pads http://www.aepsupplies.co.uk/index.cfm?sid=21583&pid=330565
 
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Amandap thanks I see where you are coming from and really good advice but this is not an acute thing, its been going on 9 mths. ( well much longer but I have had him 9mths trying to get him right!) Just obvious now how little wall he has as no shoes on. Farrier left him like that last thursday.
He is on poor grass, non mollased feed with oil for calories, lami light balancer, formula 4 feet, hoof power plus and dried seaweed. He isnt and never has been overweight and hasnt had mollased feed since Ive had him. Thats the problem really, have been doing all that for all this time :confused:
 
I probably confused people as well-vet and farrier thought it was laminitis-or had been laminitis a long time in the past- 9 mths ago when I first started trying to sort him out. Sorry
 
Bulging soles are an acute problem to me and my understanding is it's related to laminitis. The one thing I've learned having a pony with laminitis is it can take quite a bit of trying or stopping stuff to get a diet that suits that particular horse. Do you soak his hay? This is potentially a huge source of sugars and I would do this if you don't already. I'd probably give magnesium oxide, brewers yeast and salt in a small amount of unmollassed beet along with the seaweed. I would stop all the rest and take him off the grass as well.

Horses do not have to be over weight to have laminitis it's fairly common amongst racehorses... I cannot stress enough how much a consultation with an experienced Trimmer could help you both but you must be prepared to follow all the instructions. It sounds like your vet and farrier have nothing more to offer to help, another reason to get a Trimmer.
 
amandap said:
Bulging soles are an acute problem to me and my understanding is it's related to laminitis.
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I agree with you out of context, but I took the OP to mean that these are not convex soles in the area of p3 - i.e. from a dropping pedal bone; but more that the loss of the hoof wall is so extreme that the horse is weight bearing on the sole only. - Bulging is porb the wrong description here I should imagine. I think that possibly the sole and p3 are unaffected and it the hoof wall peeling away leaving them exposed that seems to be the issue.

That actually doesn't sound like laminitis related to me.

It sounds like your vet and farrier have nothing more to offer to help, another reason to get a Trimmer.
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Not sure I agree entirely here. Just because they are scratching their heads may not mean they have no more to offer.
I would strongly recommend foot balance xrays as a starting point. They will be of use to all parties (including a trimmer) IMO. Plus is p3 is moving then you will now and that is a worry!!!

If this is purely a wall issue, then the integrity of the laminar junction should be assessed and will be mostly likely to be where the problem is seated. I assume that the farrier has not found evident of advanced crumbly white line disease?

I have seen one case like this. The hoof quality had been fine all its like- never been shod before and never had laminitis. Both front feet mainly (a little on the hinds) starting literally falling apart.

I tried various ideas and the farrier and I tried nail on, glue on shoes, pad, barefoot, deep bed, supplements, diet trails etc etc even shoofs. Saadly we lost the battle - no foot, no horse.
I still don't know why that happened. nothing else in the horses routine management or diet had changed. :confused:

Try taking photos and asking your vets to ask their collegues online on the EVG-UK network. Maybe one of the vets on that forum may have seen something like this and have a better explanation.

Sorry not to be of more help
Imogen
 
ImogenBurrows said:
I agree with you out of context, but I took the OP to mean that these are not convex soles in the area of p3 - i.e. from a dropping pedal bone; but more that the loss of the hoof wall is so extreme that the horse is weight bearing on the sole only. - Bulging is porb the wrong description here I should imagine. I think that possibly the sole and p3 are unaffected and it the hoof wall peeling away leaving them exposed that seems to be the issue.

That actually doesn't sound like laminitis related to me.
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I may well have misunderstood. However I would still argue that poor quality hoof wall and white line problems need attention to diet and management in the long term to correct imo. If the horse is sore that must be addressed imo.
Horses hoof quality and strength is directly related to diet, management and movement. Imo if these basics aren't in place then any mechanical or topical treatments will only give tempory relief. The horse needs time and the resources to grow strong new feet by the sound of it imo.
 
amandap said:
I may well have misunderstood. However I would still argue that poor quality hoof wall and white line problems need attention to diet and management in the long term to correct imo. If the horse is sore that must be addressed imo.
Horses hoof quality and strength is directly related to diet, management and movement. Imo if these basics aren't in place then any mechanical or topical treatments will only give tempory relief. The horse needs time and the resources to grow strong new feet by the sound of it imo.
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Lots of IMO's there - weird reading as that's my nickname from a whole bunch of people!! :D

I'd definitely agree that the poor quality hoof wall and white line issues need to be addressed as you've stated. And soreness too - agreed.

Agreed about the basics needing to be in place first. And time requirements thing I agree with two....

Ah, I'm feeling the love :p

BUT

It'll be also useful to know if there is P3 movement - rules out any concerns regarding this and guides treatment appropriately.

Sadly sometimes, the basics are in place already - such as in the case I saw previously...and still things are going wrong.

I think we'd all agree that get the basic right if they aren't. Then add in extra layers of investigation and treatment.

I hope it improves. - Would still love to see photos though ;)
ATB
 
If there really is no laminitis and no white line disease, please get an analysis of your grazing and if possible your forage (my supplier has one done for his customers). We suffered in this area from hoof quality issues and footiness barefoot until we cottoned on to the fact that we are excessively high in manganese, preventing the absorption of copper and zinc, both essential for skin and foot quality, and copper implicated in insulin regulation, also a common cause of foot problems. Your horse either has an undiagnosed disease, or you have a mineral imbalance problem. The latter are common and easy to cure once you know which mineral you have too much or too little of.


Are you sure it is separating from the laminae? If so, you will see a "furry" surface underneath where the laminae fingers have torn apart or died away. More common is a shearing between the unpigmented and softer inner hoof wall and the pigmented outer hoof wall, leaving a much smoother, harder surface than dead laminae. I've seen it often in shod feet, which frequently peel to the nail holes in summer, but I've never found anyone to offer an explanation as to what it actually is. I've never seen it in a barefoot horse on a good diet, so that's still where I'd start.

PM me if you want to see my photos of a sole which sounds very similar to yours, and what we managed to achieve after 6 months of good barefoot management.
 
I'd start by getting x-rays, until you know what's going on inside the hoof to cause the soles to do this you can't begin to treat appropriately. And to be safe I'd have him in on a deep shavings bed with soaked hay.

Did I read correctly that you're feeding Lami Lite balancer & Formula 4 Feet? If so you're overdosing on a lot of things & sometimes this can cause serious problems.
 
Thanks guys
He has had X rays about 8 mths ago. left fore about 1 degree rotation r fore fine, eroded tip of pedal bone.
The supplements have been added in AFTER his feet failed, I took him on in this state as a sort of rescue (from a lovely home but no facilities to cope with his feet). Started with FF then added in lami light about 4 mths ago. Not much that could be overdosed with not just urinated out :)
Imogen is spot on, its not protruded soles but receeded walls :(
 
There is an old saying - if you aways do what you always did then you''ll always get what you always got - in other words if its not working (and after 9 months with no improvement i'm afraid i'd say its not working) try something different, and i'd definitely be starting with the diet.
I have a TB who can't tolerate much grass or corn or anything molassed because his liver doesn't function as it should and causes low grade lammi, he's never been fat in his life and it took a long time to figure out what was wrong.
I think that a mixture of lami light balancer, formula 4 feet, hoof power plus and dried seaweed is overkill and might just be having the opposite effect to the one you want. As cptrayes says get your forage and soil analysed, in the meantime i'd take all the supplements away and start again.

As for hoof boots, i've recently used boots and pads on a horse who was weight bearing completely on his frog and sole (sadly caused by a farrier who was all the previous owner could afford :( ) i cut a frog shape out of the pad to give the frog some relief and it made a huge difference.

re-reading this, it sounds a bit harsh for which I apologise and assure you its not meant to be, but there comes a time when the vets and farriers have exhausted all their knowledge and we have to start to ask the horse exactly what it is he needs.
 
maggiesmum said:
re-reading this, it sounds a bit harsh for which I apologise and assure you its not meant to be, but there comes a time when the vets and farriers have exhausted all their knowledge and we have to start to ask the horse exactly what it is he needs.
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I think I get what you're saying and this may be semantics, but I guess I prefer to think of it as stepping back and trying to think outside the box, rather than assuming vets and farriers have exhausted all their knowledge! ;)
 
amandap said:
For Imogen (apologies op) I came across this US vet tonight funnily enough. :D Have a look at Transitioning.
http://naturalequinepodiatry.com/index.html
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Thanks read with interest - sounds like common sense to me...
The only thing I'd comment on is this. The chap recognised the difference in the two horses a basically boiling down to diet and management...common sense right. Different foot conformation as a consequence.

But if you took the horse with the "normal" Mustang wild horse foot and made it do the work we want to do - will the horse still stay sound?

I have the same issue about most people trying to keep their horse "naturally". the problem is we don't have the facilities in the most cases to continue the natural environment throughout...i.e. we want to work them on roads or make them jump, do dressage and race....none of that is "natural".

I feel that often people try to pick and choose "natural" management...I see what the they are trying to get at; I'm just not convinced that it works when you continue the "unnatural" demands we place on the horse at the same time.

There is a lot to learn about the "normal" foot, but rather than thinking of the competition horses foot as "pathologic" or "abnormal"; I would maybe consider it as "adaptation"?

There's a lot of food for thought here...sorry for the ramble.
 
ImogenBurrows said:
I feel that often people try to pick and choose "natural" management...I see what the they are trying to get at; I'm just not convinced that it works when you continue the "unnatural" demands we place on the horse at the same time.

There is a lot to learn about the "normal" foot, but rather than thinking of the competition horses foot as "pathologic" or "abnormal"; I would maybe consider it as "adaptation"?
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I agree people seem to pick and choose and from what I'm reading if you don't stick with the changes or can't achieve enough of them for whatever reason then performance may be less than 100% reliable. Lets face it though, how many shod and stabled Competition horses have 100% reliable performance?

Many don't agree with these horses as a model because their lifestyle and hoof shape is so different, K. C. La Pierre is one and has developed a similar trim based on his theory of hoof dynamics but feed and management is also integral and crucial in his thinking.

I do agree that horses do adapt. The hooves of our feral ponies are very different from the mustang hoof.
The difference in working competition horses is different in various ways if you think about it. Take a well bred warmblood foal born to perform at top level in the future. He is stabled every night, only ever walks on soft bedding, possibly concrete and grass. The surfaces he walks on are flat with no obstacles (he might injure himself) he is fed foal mix and then other highly concentrated mixes as he grows. So his body and hooves get a fraction of the movement of feral counterpart and that movement does not flex and use the hoof and legs as a more challanging surface would so his hoof doesn't develop as strongly or as much. At two he is shod which almost brings to a halt any development of the internal hoof structures, so a horse of five years old could have the hoof developed to the age of a one year old mustang for eg. See where I'm going with this?
My understanding is that the way we currently feed and keep horses is so far removed from how they are evolved to live that they have little chance of developing a strong body and hoof in the first place. Add to that the sort of diet that we feed which is also not what horses have evolved to eat and for me these insults are far more than a horse can adapt to and it becomes pathology rather than adaption. Surely if horses could adapt to the lifestyles we impose on them there would be very few hoof problems?

Here's a Barefoot trimmer whose horses live on a track and compete regularly
http://www.performancebarefoot.co.uk/

Sorry for rambling myself, there's actually a US long term Trimmer who produced a leaflet titled 'Out of the box' many years ago. I'll find the link.
http://www.tribeequus.com/books.html
 
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Some interesting points being raised.

I worry when peeps consider a mustang hoof to be radically different to a domestic horse. After all the mustangs are the progeny of recent history domestic horses that either escaped or were dumped.

It has been shown that a sound mustang can be easily lamed within six weeks of capture. Not from the work, as those studied hadn't been broken. But from lack of movement and an inappropriate diet.

As to whether a bare hoof can cope with the rigours of a domestic lifestyle. I think the Houston Police force have proven this point all on their own. But if leaping about is your thing rather than pounding asphalt then you only need reference the bevy of peeps that hunt their horses barefoot (four foot hedges, exmoor rock all equally no problem).

I am not a leaper but I did use to hack my old horse on the road for 50 plus miles a week and the hooves still grew faster than they wore down. We also used to tank about on the flints of the south downs - again no problem.

But my horse, like the mustangs would very quickly get poor feet if I didn't look after her nutrition, environment and trim properly.

So no, I don't see the sky scraper, usually stinking, feet of the domestic horse as an adaptation, but rather as an unhappy testimony to our inability to look after our horses properly, and to know the difference between a healthy foot and an unhealthy foot.

As always - if your horse isn't sound without shoes, then he is lame.
 
smiggy said:
Have posted before on here about my poor ponys feet. Basically they just fall apart. After 9 mths of supplements and trying every shoe/hoof pad combination under the sun at vast expensive, this time after shoe came off in week 3 leaving no wall to reshoe, got farrier to pull shoes and trim.
the upper hoof wall looks fine but as it gets about 3 cm from the bottom, it just seems to seperate from the laminae and comes away in chunks. The end result is a foot that if you look underneath, has a protruding sole, not just a flat sole, the sole and frog (splodgy squashed frog) are taking all the weight, the hoof wall isnt in contact with the ground.
Are hoof boots going to help? if so any ideas which one?
Vet and farrier have no idea what cause is other than it looks like laminitis but no history of this and no active lami in the 9mths I have had him. Farrier and vet say not thrush or white line disease.
Am really getting to stage where I dont know what to do for the best for him. Even in the soft field his feet are obv sore, he is really happiest in on a shavings bed but he is only 5, cant keep him in 24/7 for ever :(
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Smiggy does your horse's feet look like these? http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/2010/08/lameness-case-study-8-weeks-6-days.html

I last saw this horse end of October by which time its feet were resuming concavity and it was sound over all but big stones and working six days a week. Am seeing again end Nov so will post an update on the blog then.
 
Someone I know has just paid several thousand pounds for a six month old warmblood foal from Germany. It arrived on the weekend. People were asking what it was called, and what the new owners were going to call it.

I suggested 'Papillon', when asked why, I said that this little foal was going to join the rest of their horses, in permanent solitary confinement.

These folk spend a fortune on horse after horse who all suffer from periodic lameness and numerous veterinary treatments, eventually being sold on as unsuitable due to behavioural problems. There is always a very plausable reason why each particular horse has failed to make the grade.

They are regularly shod, wormed and fed buckets of the most expensive sweet smelling feed.

These people are very well respected in the local area as being excellent horse people who do things 'right'.

Personally, I wouldn't trust them with the cat.
 
Depressing Andyspooner, sounds like another example of our throw away society! :( It's such a sad shame when it extends to animals though.

LucyPriory said:
As always - if your horse isn't sound without shoes, then he is lame.
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I saw that on your blog LucyPriory and thought, how true.
 
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lucyprior-similar but much worse, that horse has hoof wall extending below the level of the sole. In my case, the sole is about 3-4mm proud of the hoof wall. Not because the sole is convex or protruding-its flat, but because the hoof wall has crumbled away.
Will try and get a decent sole picture tomorrow when I have a child around to take pics if I hold up!
 
LucyPriory said:
Some interesting points being raised.

I worry when peeps consider a mustang hoof to be radically different to a domestic horse. After all the mustangs are the progeny of recent history domestic horses that either escaped or were dumped.
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I'm not suggesting they are radically different horses. Genetically I believe they are both horses. I was merely pointing out their lifestyle is very different and often I see clients striving to keep horses feet like this but not adjusting the horses lifestyle to match in.

It has been shown that a sound mustang can be easily lamed within six weeks of capture. Not from the work, as those studied hadn't been broken. But from lack of movement and an inappropriate diet.
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I'm sure it has. I'm sure we could also find that if you alter any horses diet and routine negatively then it may become lame.

As to whether a bare hoof can cope with the rigours of a domestic lifestyle. I think the Houston Police force have proven this point all on their own. But if leaping about is your thing rather than pounding asphalt then you only need reference the bevy of peeps that hunt their horses barefoot (four foot hedges, exmoor rock all equally no problem).

I am not a leaper but I did use to hack my old horse on the road for 50 plus miles a week and the hooves still grew faster than they wore down. We also used to tank about on the flints of the south downs - again no problem.
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I get the impression that you are sensitive about having to defend barefoot horses in face of workload as an excuse to shoe them. I'd just like to make one thing clear. I had my own horses kept out 24/7 on the hillside (exmoor) and none had shoes on. I never had foot lameness issues. Maybe that's why, may be I was lucky, but I sure as hell never panda'd to them - hay and grass and exercise was as exciting as it got. So FWIW I'm quite pro that.

BUT

Here's the thing. I had welsh sec b's and d's. My mother's TB was shod or he'd be crippled sore. He didn't cope - different breed = different foot conformation and different horn quality. This horse was kept in a similar natural way to the others but didn't react the same.

But my horse, like the mustangs would very quickly get poor feet if I didn't look after her nutrition, environment and trim properly.
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This has a lot to play, but is not always the whole story. Years of breeding has altered genetic predispositions in vast numbers of ways.
In the wild you find most horses have good feet, exmoor to shetland to mustangs. It's probably a lot more self selecting, ie. no foot no horse. I doubt the typical TB foot conformation horse gets survives for long in the wild TBH. It's a manufactured breed....lovely, but not native.

So no, I don't see the sky scraper, usually stinking, feet of the domestic horse as an adaptation, but rather as an unhappy testimony to our inability to look after our horses properly, and to know the difference between a healthy foot and an unhealthy foot.
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Absolutely, these feet are not healthy. I quite agree. But these are not the ones I would consider to be healthy adaptation, more a consequence of our poor understanding as you say.

I just don't think every foot I see on a horse is like that. But I also think there is more than one type of healthy foot and this can be barefoot or shod. It's not so much of which option is right, more which option is right for the individual horse.

As always - if your horse isn't sound without shoes, then he is lame.
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I'd further this - if your horse isn't sound, he is lame. Some are never going to be sound without shoes. A lot don't need them. I don't think we should make all horses become shod; but neither do I believe it is right for all horses to the barefoot either.

Welcome the world of choice.
 
Re Imogen,

Well, thats taking two extreams a TB and some Sec A's and living out 24/7 on a hill side.

I don't think that Lucy is being sensitive about workload and barefoot, the fact is that most barefoot horses don't get enough work to have self maintaining feet.

I think that it is true that some TB's do have foot problems due to inappropreate breeding, but there are alternatives to shoeing such as boots which I would prefer to use, particularly on a TB with poor feet, the shoeing only makes them worse.
 
ImogenBurrows said:
There is a lot to learn about the "normal" foot, but rather than thinking of the competition horses foot as "pathologic" or "abnormal"; I would maybe consider it as "adaptation"?
Click to expand...


The problem that I have with this Imogen is that there are now quite a number of us with horses operating at high performance, like this one of mine

http://www.klickonfotos.co.uk/photo_galleries/161010cf/pages/161010cf 401.htm

who will tell you that the barefoot performance horse has a foot just like a barefoot happy hacker. The trouble is that vets and farriers who see these horses are few and far between and therefore consider the corrupted feet seen on many (most?) shod performance horses as "normal".

I am told, and you will know whether this is true, that the main horse anatomy book for vet students shows dissected legs WITH THE SHOES ON. And the shoe is even numbered as a part of the anatomy. As if the shoe was a part of the horse!!! In other words, vets are being taught that what a foot looks like with a shoe on is "normal". Those of us with barefoot horses doing high level stuff that vets and farriers are telling us cannot be done without shoes know that this is not the case.

Shod performance feet aren't adapted, in my opinion, they are corrupted. The fact that we get away with this corruption most of the time is something of a miracle. Suspending the pedal bone from the laminae when nature designed it to be weight bearing via the frog and digitial cushion sounds like some kind of medieval torture dreamt up by the Spanish Inquisition. The wonder for me is that shod horses cope at all, not that it often goes wrong.

Very, very few feet fail to change shape, size, angle, quality or all four significantly once the horse is allowed to grow what he really wants and needs on the end of his leg to match the body above it. This fact alone is enought to convince me that shoes should be a last resort, not a first one. And that no foot in a shoe should be considered "normal" - just "the best that horse/owner" combination can manage right now.
 
Andyspooner I'm always in the market for a big, big-moving warmblood with foot lameness and behavioural issues at the right price :-) PM me when the next one is cast off please!
 
Imogen you can't tell whether your mother's TB could have coped or not without taking him shoeless in an environment that he could cope with, getting his diet perfectly adapted to him (which might mean sugar free or mineral balanced and be quite difficult to identify!) and gradually working him longer and harder on more challenging surfaces.

There are plenty of barefoot horses working happily now who were hopping lame at first on anything but a soft surface without shoes. My eventer had to be shod one front foot at a time because he could not stand with both front shoes off. After nine months of careful rehab he was back to affiliated eventing. Two farriers told me he'd never manage it. Some of the ones with the worst feet benefit the most and plenty of us have now succesfully rehabbed ex racers with typical TB feet.

It's the owners who find the more difficult barefoot transitions impossible, rarely the horses.
 
This is a serious question to cptrayers, I am not being facetious.

Would you consider writing a book/paper on your barefoot experiences? You have lots of success, the "proof is in the eating" with several different horses and you reply to most of the barefoot questions when put on the DG. But the replies get lost in a short time and you have such a lot of valuable knowledge and heartening experience.

How you started, the different horses, what you feed them, their regime,and what you do with them - jump lots of big hedges, I know!

Not quite sure where the finished article/book would live, but writing it would fill up the winter evenings.
 
Mostly already written Orangehorse - Feet First by Nic Barker and Sarah Braithwaite. My eventer George and I are on the cover of the first edition.

This year's project, my rehab horse with changes to the navicular bone and feet so soft that you could bend them with your fingers is now reported, by his new carers, to be hacking out for two and a half hours without boots on, and this on the most appalling potholed tarmac/rubble road surface you could wish for.

He's a typical horse that people would have said "he'll never be able to cope" - he had been footie on tough surfaces from when he was first ridden to ten years old. But at ten his health problems forced a radical rethink of his diet and that has enabled him to manage barefoot so superbly well that his navicular disease is a thing of the past and in addition to the hacking he jumps and competes at dressage. Gobsmackingly, his extreme case of sweet itch disappeared completely at the same time - so how many itchy horses are there out there who need their diets differently managed????????

He is the reason why I have such trouble accepting anyone saying "my horse just can't do it" when they have not exhausted every possible dietary/metabolic issue. "I and my horse just can't do it" I have no problem with. There are many owner/horse combinations out there who simply don't have the time/facilities/money to make it work, and shoes are a necessary compromise for them. But I suspect that a very small proportion of horses couldn't manage - given the right environment, diet and work, over time.
 
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