flat, protruding soles-advice/help

[LucyPriory]

I suspect that a very small proportion of horses couldn't manage - given the right environment, diet and work, over time.

How true.

The biggest problem is that seeing is believing and lots of people either haven't or don't want to see. And if you present them with the evidence they get defensive/aggressive and/or personal.

I find again and again that the horses that have the most unlikely of scenarios often turn out the best. Equally some of those that could be really easy are not - and it is usually down to the main carer; not just the livery options available.

Grace being a case in point - condemned to the meat waggon after years of unsuccessful treatment. All she needed was a change of diet.

 

[mrdarcy]

BUT

Here's the thing. I had welsh sec b's and d's. My mother's TB was shod or he'd be crippled sore. He didn't cope - different breed = different foot conformation and different horn quality. This horse was kept in a similar natural way to the others but didn't react the same.


This has a lot to play, but is not always the whole story. Years of breeding has altered genetic predispositions in vast numbers of ways.
In the wild you find most horses have good feet, exmoor to shetland to mustangs. It's probably a lot more self selecting, ie. no foot no horse. I doubt the typical TB foot conformation horse gets survives for long in the wild TBH. It's a manufactured breed....lovely, but not native.

I hear this 'TB's have got genetically bad feet' so often - if only I had a pound for each time! But it's simply a huge myth and completely untrue.

You want the evidence? Well there are many TBs out there happily barefoot and performing. I have a few on my own books. But probably the best place to look is the racehorse training yard of Simon Earle. He's a licensed trainer - mostly running horses over the jumps. I was lucky enough to spend a day there a couple of weeks ago. His horses are kept in a fairly conventional way - stabled in the winter 24/7 whilst in training. They go on the horse walker for up to an hour and a half each day - concrete surface. They do road work to and from the gallops each day. Feed wise Simon is very clued up - they are on haylage and high oil low sugar/starch feeds like Saracen Re-leve and EquiJewel. I went round the yard from stable to stable. First stable - horse had four amazing feet... thick hoof wall, big fat frogs, wide heels, concavity to die for. But maybe that TB was just a fluke. Second stable. Same result - beautiful healthy feet. Well maybe that's just luck... two TBs with great feet. Third stable. Beautiful feet. Fourth, same. By the time I'd looked at the tenth horse who could argue it was luck or a fluke. Ten out of ten thoroughbreds with amazing, healthy, strong, bare, performing feet. In fact the only horse on Simon's yard with bad feet was one that had just arrived, in shoes, for Simon to rehab.

Could anyone still say TB's have genetically bad feet after spending time at Simon's yard? Absolutely not. They can have as healthy and strong feet as any other breed - you just have to feed them right and work them hard!

 

[ImogenBurrows]

The problem that I have with this Imogen is that there are now quite a number of us with horses operating at high performance, like this one of mine

http://www.klickonfotos.co.uk/photo_galleries/161010cf/pages/161010cf 401.htm

who will tell you that the barefoot performance horse has a foot just like a barefoot happy hacker. The trouble is that vets and farriers who see these horses are few and far between and therefore consider the corrupted feet seen on many (most?) shod performance horses as "normal".

I agree that we see few and far between competing barefoot horses. But again I'd like to make clear, I have not said I don't believe that these cases don't exist, nor have I asked for proof of them. I know of a handful of horses barefoot like yours above, which is great. But it's only a handful because of the skew in the population I see.

I am told, and you will know whether this is true, that the main horse anatomy book for vet students shows dissected legs WITH THE SHOES ON. And the shoe is even numbered as a part of the anatomy. As if the shoe was a part of the horse!!! In other words, vets are being taught that what a foot looks like with a shoe on is "normal". Those of us with barefoot horses doing high level stuff that vets and farriers are telling us cannot be done without shoes know that this is not the case.

This is completely untrue IME. Occasionally the horse you may be working on in dissection may have a shoe on. This is often commented on, usually in respect of the way in which the balance of the foot has been affected - often negatively. None of the anatomy books I've have have shoes on the diagrams, nor are they labelled. THis http://www.amazon.co.uk/Textbook-Veterinary-Anatomy-Dyce-MRCVS/dp/0721689663 is the bible I used (an older edition and there aren't shoes on legs in my copy!!

Vets are not being taught that having shoes on the horse is "normal". They are taught that it is "common". I don't see how that can be disputed in the average population. None of the college herd at the RVC when I was there was shod.

I would never dream of telling ANYONE, let alone you guys, who specialise in this area that horses CANNOT do a level of work without shoes. In fact, maybe I haven't made this clear enough, I believe most horses could and in most cases shoeing is "fashionable" and unnecessary to the horse. I have very few clients who genuinely work their horses hard enough for the wear factor to be a consideration and as you guys have so rightly pointed out, the hoof usually will develop at the same rate, or even faster to compensate, as long as all the other factors are in place.

Shod performance feet aren't adapted, in my opinion, they are corrupted. The fact that we get away with this corruption most of the time is something of a miracle. Suspending the pedal bone from the laminae when nature designed it to be weight bearing via the frog and digitial cushion sounds like some kind of medieval torture dreamt up by the Spanish Inquisition. The wonder for me is that shod horses cope at all, not that it often goes wrong.

I didn't mean to say that I felt shod feet were adapted. What I was thinking about was the difference between a warmblood/thoroughbred vs a true native breed. ASAIK they have very different shaped feet, even unshod. Is that just because they are not given long enough barefoot to adjust or breed variation. Again I'll clarify that this doesn't been that I don't think they will suffer for being barefoot, they just may have a different conformation.

I guess I would expect even a welsh sec B to have different shaped feet to a D...my D's have far more triangular shaped hind feet than my B's - is this breed variation or abnormal in your opinions??

Very, very few feet fail to change shape, size, angle, quality or all four significantly once the horse is allowed to grow what he really wants and needs on the end of his leg to match the body above it. This fact alone is enought to convince me that shoes should be a last resort, not a first one. And that no foot in a shoe should be considered "normal" - just "the best that horse/owner" combination can manage right now.

I agree with this above statement. Clearly the addition of a shoe is not a natural thing to do...it alters the biomechanics of the gait, not just the shape of the hoof. It is artificial, there's no getting away from that. The last sentence is bang on IMO.

He is the reason why I have such trouble accepting anyone saying "my horse just can't do it" when they have not exhausted every possible dietary/metabolic issue. "I and my horse just can't do it" I have no problem with. There are many owner/horse combinations out there who simply don't have the time/facilities/money to make it work, and shoes are a necessary compromise for them. But I suspect that a very small proportion of horses couldn't manage - given the right environment, diet and work, over time.

Very true I should imagine.

The biggest problem is that seeing is believing and lots of people either haven't or don't want to see. And if you present them with the evidence they get defensive/aggressive and/or personal.

People will also find excuses as to why you are wrong. I wish I saw more - my caseload is very "pro shod" biased. I have to work within this to keep the horse running. If I asked most of my clients to make their horse barefoot they'd give up at the start of the transition, because impatience often beats my logic....

I hear this 'TB's have got genetically bad feet' so often - if only I had a pound for each time! But it's simply a huge myth and completely untrue.

...But probably the best place to look is the racehorse training yard of Simon Earle. He's a licensed trainer - mostly running horses over the jumps. His horses are kept in a fairly conventional way - stabled in the winter 24/7 whilst in training. Ten out of ten thoroughbreds with amazing, healthy, strong, bare, performing feet. In fact the only horse on Simon's yard with bad feet was one that had just arrived, in shoes, for Simon to rehab.

Could anyone still say TB's have genetically bad feet after spending time at Simon's yard? Absolutely not. They can have as healthy and strong feet as any other breed - you just have to feed them right and work them hard!

This chap sounds like he has it nailed (pardon the pun!) - I wish more trainers/owners etc were so open minded and educated. I see so many badly shod racehorses that performance MUST be affected negatively. I often wonder why people bother with this TBH, it coasts a fortune and doesn't help the horse... I don't get the logic sometimes.

For the record, I never said "TB's have genetically bad feet"; I just said
different breed = different foot conformation and different horn quality.
I believe this is true - but different doesn't = bad. I'm a "different" vet from others - I hope that doesn't mean "bad"

FWIW this is very interesting debate. I think forward thinking educated barefoot trimmers are clearly becoming more and more established, which is great. I love working alongside this type of person whether it's "trimmer" or "farrier", you all know way more than I do about the workings of the actual foot TBH and how to dress it properly. Vets and farriers/trimmers have historically often butted heads - I see no need for this TBH. We both have things to learn from each other.

While don't believe there is one fix for all....I do agree that the skew of shod horses in the population is probably the wrong way....many more could cope barefoot than are given the chance to do. On the flipside, I still believe some will not cope barefoot. I believe that many owners have horses shod because education (from friends, farriers, vets, literature, organisations etc) leans them to do so... rarely do they consider what the shoe is doing for the horse and therefore whether it is really necessary.

 

[smiggy]

Guys-I take on board everything. I have in fact read "feet first" and follow all its management and dietary advice.
All of this however supposes that you have a horse whos hoof walls do not crumble and die seemingly randomly.
These are his back feet today, trimmed one week ago, barefoot 9mths

side view

and fronts-hard to see but can you see gap between wall and floor

sole

 

[cptrayes]

Those are laminae all right!

The only two things I know that would cause that are white line disease from the bottom or a pretty severe bout of laminis (think crippled with pain) from the top. My money is on white line disease, no matter what anyone is telling you about him not having it, especially as it looks as if you can see the same sort of soggy rot going on in the white line where it folds right round into the bars. Surely the giveaway is that it stops in a dead straight line at the nail holes????


Imogen I never intended to suggest that YOU are telling us things can't be done. You are the most open minded vet I've ever come across. Unfortunately, they aren't all like you!

The anatomy book info was posted on a blog by the founder of the UKNHCP. Looks like she was referring to a very out of date book, and thanks for the correction.

 

[LucyPriory]

Smiggy I am going to pm you (in a minute when coffee is at hand)

 

[smiggy]

Ive been banging on about white line disease to my farrier as completely agree thats what it looks like, fits history as well much better than laminitis. He is adamant its not.
Thing is though-what to do if it is?
I have used clean trax (despite being told not white line disease)

 

[amandap]

I'm looking forward to the replies for you smiggy. I'm an owner not a professional.
Who trims his feet? The third pic looks as if the hoof wall has been rasped very thin and even completely. Or has the wall at the toe fallen off half way up the hoof?
I don't know but I'd be guessing an infection in the white line is involved and would perhaps be soaking in an apple cider vinegar solution weekly and spraying with this daily. Where is he housed? I would say he needs to be in a dry environment all the time at the moment.
It may well be worth having his forage tested for mineral balance as well as possibly bloods for metabolic and other physical problems. There are still growth rings at the top of the walls which suggests his diet still isn't right yet.

I'll go back and read your other thread again and hope you get good advice from the pics. Thanks for posting them and sorry we've gone off onto general BF talk...

 

[amandap]

If it's possible I'd be really interested in LucyPriory's advice. Bit of a cheek I know but I'm especially interested in the cause of the notch out of the sole at the toe in the last pic.

My unprofessional opinion is it's all fixable.

 

[LucyPriory]

Have pm'd you. Have always found that 'WLD' is a symptom that is very hard to resolve unless you remove the underlying cause.

The diet you are using is not effective in all cases and the authors have admitted this, although not to my knowledge in that particular book.

The hooves in the photo are showing multiple event lines and the white line is very stretched.

I am surprised your farrier has not recommended that you speak to your vet about laminitis?

Although I do find that some vets are unhappy to discuss laminitis until the horse has much more severe symptoms I would still recommend that you discuss this with your vet and maybe seek a second opinion.

In the meantime it wouldn't hurt to treat your horse as a laminitic and review the diet, including forage, in line with this. Depending on your forage you may need to choose a different source of vits/minerals other than seaweed.

Also read Jamie Jackson's book Founder Prevention and Cure.

If this horse were mine, I'd be very concerned.

Sorry

 

[cptrayes]

Yes I'd like to know about the notch too! I have seen it very often, maybe even more often than not, but only as a tiny, tiny notch not that darned great thing.

 

[ImogenBurrows]

I have the pleasure of seeing this horse on thursday - so bring on the ideas???

It certainly looks like white line disease of some nature has to be involved...I think we'll have to look at doing some sort of forage/diet analysis to check vit's & mins balance as suggested.

I agree with dry bedding at the moment.

I'll try and look into the more bizarre causes of laminar separation in the meantime....

Do any of the foot people know of any odd causes - autoimmune and the like???

Open to all ideas.
Imogen

 

[cptrayes]

It occurs to me, as someone with high manganese and iron levels, that if the OP has similar imbalance in either, or both, then feeding seaweed (high in iron) is a VERY bad idea. In the absence of a forage analysis, and since seaweed is not essential, then I would stop seaweed supplementation immediately and add a half dose of Copper Trition just in case.

The absorption of copper and zinc will be prevented by excess manganese and/or iron, resulting in poor skin and hoof quality. In addition, if copper regulates insulin use in horses as it does in humans, then it will be adding to, (or even causing?), some of the laminitic effects.

Imogen I have often seen shod horses peel to the nail holes this way, but between the inner and outer hoof wall. I've never seen one with such obvious laminae, and in a case of WLD I would have expected the laminae to be more rotted away and less obviously formed. Good luck, it looks odd to me ... I hope the OP allows you to tell us all what you think is going on.

 

[smiggy]

Re forage/diet analysis its important to remember that I took the horse on like this, ie he was on different forage/diet with the same feet, also I have 5 other horses all of which are fine. So if its some kind of imbalance its in him (ie his handling of food) rather than food provided, if that makes any sense?

With regard to wet / dry comditions. In the really hot dry spell we had (yes I know its hard to remember!) in june, his feet were the worst they have been (that was around the time of my previous thread) and they were bone dry for weeks

I have said previously that both vet and farrier said laminitis 9 mths ago and feet have been xrayed (showing 1 degree rotation only in left fore). He has been treated as a laminitic in terms of diet since then, it has made not a jot of difference.

I took this horse on with these feet (yep am an idiot!) 9 mths ago, thinking it could be sorted. I have tried so hard and yes I am concerned because quite frankly if things carry on as they are then euthanasia may be the only option. this horse is only just 5, cant go on with feet like these

Imogen-auto immune is my thought too, though have failed to find any research about this in horses. Just looks like the autoimmune nail shedding you see in dogs.
Fungal is my other thought. The history was that horse was bought as a 2yr old at connie sales in ireland. First uk winter terrible thrush, summer fine, broken in and ridden, 2nd winter terrible thrush again. Sadly the vet dealing with him then has died so I cant speak to them directly. Really no history of an acute laminitic episode though-which you would have thought you would need for them to be this rubbish

 

[LucyPriory]

I've done a few of these. You have to tackle it from both ends; but the most effective end is what goes in rather than what you put on.

Although the photo angles are not terribly helpful, I think you can just about see the healing angle at the top. The fact that this angle is not reaching the ground is a major clue. That and the multiple event lines.

And please reconsider the approach of thinning the hoof wall. It is contributing to the problem rather than helping.

 

[amandap]

I was also thinking of excessive mineral level or something else that is toxic. I wonder if checking the water may be worth doing as well.

Re the notch in the sole? I was wondering if this is the right front foot which had an eroded tip of pedal bone seen on previous Xrays?

Smiggy, I hope you are ok, we are all behind you 100% and are trying to help.

Great news Imogen is coming out to see him. Seeing him will give her a much clearer picture I'm sure.

 

[smiggy]

Seaweed again was added after feet got this bad

Did try 2 mths copper too (equine america one)-no difference (wasnt expecting miracle after 2 mths but no change at all)

More than happy for imogen to "share"

 

[amandap]

I'm going to be blunt here Smiggy and say again that for this horse I would definitely use an experienced Trimmer rather than your Farrier. I'm sorry to say this but not being a professional I can. You need someone who will work with the horse and not against him as well as veterinary and dietry advice.

I'd be tempted to take him off everything except free choice soaked hay for a while. (and perhaps some yea sacc in a small amount of un mollassed beet.)

 

[LucyPriory]

Amandap - good thinking.

Smiggy ask Imogen if it is possible to test for acidosis? If she says yes, consider it and then tell me what the test is.......... I have heard of one, but never seen it done and not sure of its efficacy.

With feet like those the chances are your horse is stressed. For some horses the stress is enough to contribute to the problem.

But I do have one in your area which did have very crumbly feet. The hoof walls had the texture of cardboard and the colour was washed out.

These issues are resolving with a change in diet and some judicious trimming. (The horse had the weirdest angles which didn't help). The way the colour has come back is quite remarkable and the event lines are growing out.

Not sure how that one will turn out long term. But progress has been made.

 

[Oberon]

If it's possible I'd be really interested in LucyPriory's advice. Bit of a cheek I know but I'm especially interested in the cause of the notch out of the sole at the toe in the last pic.

My unprofessional opinion is it's all fixable.

My Ardennes x has the same notch. He has always been barefoot and has text book barefoot feet.

My trimmers has seen the notch before and reasons there may be a dimple at the end of the pedal bones. Just an odd natural occurrence.

 

[cptrayes]

Smiggy in the light of your additional diet information I'm with AmandaP and I would remove this horse completely from grass.

My rehab horse had been tried on very, very restricted grass - a paddock so bare it was necessary to feed hay in summer, and he was still unable to form solid feet that would allow him to work barefoot on a rougher surface. He had horrendous sweet itch issues which has left him with scars under his tail where he took chunks out of himself. On no grass whatsoever, both those problems are resolved, as are some curious temperamental behaviours.) Yours might be one that needs a similar approach and trying it won't hurt. Imogen might be able to suggest medication instead but mine is a horse that is stonkingly healthy and mentally very happy with no grazing, so it's pointless to medicate this one, though it might be possible with yours.

Good luck on Thursday and thank you so much for allowing us to share your experiences with this horse. He's a lucky fellow that you took him on.

 

[Rollin]

I have not read the whole post but have you spoken to the Laminitis Trust or tried their special supplement for horn quality?

I also learned from speaking to them that degree of rotation is not the most important indicator but how far the pedal bone has sunk.

 

[maggiesmum]

Sadly the laminitis trust recommend and give their seal of approval to feeds which quite clearly state molasses on the label - that rather dents my confidence in them. :-(

smiggy - would love to hear how it progresses, its a real difficult one. x

 

[brucea]

Come into this late - sorry - been away on the dreaded management team meetings!

Have seen this before on an elderly pony that had been turned away to pasture - it was WLD quite severe, but also there was some rotation on xrays (but mobile and poor quality so a bit hard to really tell tbh). Trimmer took as much of the loose and damaged wall away as was feasible, long soak in WL solution, repeated for a couple of weeks. Off grass, and onto dry clean bedding with the option to stand out in a dry concrete apron. Initially home made pads with 2 layers of camping mat and duct tape changed daily. Camping mat is cheap, and just the right density for protection.

Feeding was key - restricted grass - and in this case a broad spectrum supplement specific to my area was used. Good result - pony back into work for an immensely happy 2 1/2 years, when the old girl became very ill and passed away.

Afraid you can't fix this - you have to regrow it.

Was out for a long and fast ride through the woods and tracks this afternoon on two of my 4 bare horses Great fun.

 

[touchstone]

Might be a wildcard, but I've seen pics of chronic selenium toxicity that look like this, although it apparently affects the mane and tail too.
I think dropping the supplements for a while might be worth doing.

 

[ImogenBurrows]

Smiggy ask Imogen if it is possible to test for acidosis? If she says yes, consider it and then tell me what the test is.......... I have heard of one, but never seen it done and not sure of its efficacy.

I can test venous or arterial blood for pH to determine whether the horse is acidotic. I'm not sure what that would actually related to though - I would assume that as the horse is conscious the shift (if any) would be relating to a metabolic vs respiratory based acidosis and if present could only really be corrected nutritionally....hence my thought is forage analysis may be of more value in this case?

I have seen this type of condition occur previously but in an older horse and the diet was perfect ( as good as we get anyway!) no mineral deficiencies/excess that we could find and no history of laminitis.

FWIW, I have seen this horse's xrays and they don't IMO shout laminitis at me. There is no sinking of P3 at all it seems and actually I see a broken back HPA (obviously hoof wall loss means balancing may be a little more of a challenge and it is only mild ) and the LF has P3 at a flat horizontal angle parallel to the ground rather than rotated tip down...almost starting a reverse rotation so to speak.

I personally feel that a missed subclinical laminitis condition at the root of this is unlikely to be causing all these ongoing problems, and so I will be interested to see these feet in the flesh so to speak on thursday. I think WLD has to be ruled out, and the diet and management routine for the horse will be discussed in detail....

Let's wait and see what we find...

 

[LucyPriory]

acidosis and if present could only really be corrected nutritionally....hence my thought is forage analysis may be of more value in this case?

But as you know there are other causes of acidosis than just nutrition

 

[ImogenBurrows]

I'm not sure what that would actually related to though - I would assume that as the horse is conscious the shift (if any) would be relating to a metabolic vs respiratory based acidosis and if present could only really be corrected nutritionally.

But as you know there are other causes of acidosis than just nutrition

If you reread, my post I did state that the are both respiratory and metabolic roots to acidosis, respiratory acidosis is only really relevant in compromised lungs or under ga...therefore a metabolic root would be more likely....

I commented that correction would be nutritional probably, to reduce pH levels, not the cause is nutritional....

 

[LucyPriory]

In the hind gut there are other causes of acidosis than what the horse is fed.

 

[ImogenBurrows]

In the hind gut there are other causes of acidosis than what the horse is fed.

Again, I didn't say diet was the cause...

FYI:

Unless there is clear evidence of a respiratory disorder that would cause accumulation of CO2, low bicarbonate is presumptive evidence of metabolic acidosis. Diseases that cause loss or titration of HCO3 must then be considered. Evaluation of the anion gap helps distinguish between these causes, although both may be occurring concurrently resulting in a mixed acid-base disorder. Metabolic acidosis is the most common acid-base disorder encountered in veterinary practice.

1) Loss of bicarbonate - normal anion gap hyperchloremic metabolic acidosis
Bicarbonate is lost through the gastrointestinal tract (vomiting of biliary or pancreatic fluids {not horse obviously}, diarrhoea, saliva, sequestration of bicarbonate within the gastrointestinal tract) or kidneys (renal tubular acidosis, Addison's disease). In cattle, saliva is high in bicarbonate, so loss of saliva through inability to swallow can result in a metabolic acidosis.
In these conditions, water and sodium are lost concurrently, hence hypovolemia ensues. As a response to hypovolemia, the kidney absorbs sodium and water. Sodium is absorbed with chloride, which then increases in blood, resulting in hyperchloremia with a normal anion gap.

2) Titration of bicarbonate - high anion gap metabolic acidosis
Titration of bicarbonate by acids that lack chloride as the anion (unmeasured anion) will increase the anion gap. This is by far the most common cause of metabolic acidosis in animals. Acids that are unmeasured anions include lactate, organic acids (sulfates, phosphates and citrates), ketones (diabetic ketoacidosis), and ethelyene glycol (antifreeze so again not a big issue in the horse....) and its metabolites. In these conditions, bicarbonate is consumed in buffering the organic acid, leaving the anion of the acid in its place (thus increasing the anion gap).

Lactic acidosis usually results from decreased tissue perfusion (anaerobic glycolysis increases lactate production), e.g. hypovolemia, hypoxia. Lactic acidosis also results from grain overload in cattle. Renal failure will result in a high anion gap due to retained organic acids normally filtered by the kidney. Ketones (acetoacetic acid, beta-hydroxybutyrate) accumulate in unregulated diabetic patients. The lack of insulin leads to increased lipolysis of adipose tissue with enhanced fatty acid presentation to the liver. These fatty acids are used for energy, incorporated into lipoproteins (VLDL) or shunted into ketone production. Horses do not develop ketosis due to poorly developed ketone pathways.