flat puppy syndrome

[marotelle]

Hi, everyone;
Three weeks ago I had a litter of wire haired teckels,there were only three of them and the bitch had alot of milk resulting in very well fed puppies.They where very quiet and soon became very fat, I cut down on the bitch's food intake hoping this might reduce her milk.
The puppies had difficulty moving about and are generally lethargic.I have removed their vetbed and placed them on corrugated cardboard to help them with their grip and balance .
Its a bit of a bore as the cardboard is continously wet and although they have a heat lamp ,I fear they will get cold.I am also trying to wean them sooner than later.Usually I wean them with Starter from Royal Canin, but I now Wonder if this will be too rich for them...
Has anyone had this problem? I would be grateful for opinions on this issue as I have never encountered this before.

 

[twiggy2]

what does the vet say?

 

[{97702}]

Ah you mean swimmers! Wondered what flat puppy syndrome was. Like twiggy says - I would recommend vet opinion

 

[Cinnamontoast]

Swimmer puppy info on here, post 9 is good plus there are links for help. There are also threads on that site for fading puppy syndrome. http://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/swimmer-puppies.205395/

 

[marotelle]

<i took them to my vet today,he told me they were too fat, which I knew for a fact, told me to wean them , but allow the mother to have acess to them ocassionally, as they must be able to hydrate themselves;I wouldn't leave water anywhere near them without supervision, as I would fear they could drown.He sugested feeding them with 'filet americain' which infact is minced lean meat, mixed with powdered puppy milk.He considers the mother's milk as beeing too rich.
Here in Belgium we call it flat puppy syndrome as they lie on their belly like beached tortoises, rather like a large pancake.My vet does not seem over worried; as they do try to raise themselves on their front legs;its their hind legs that seem to malfunction .He wishes to see them again in a fortnight, but other than that, believes they will recover without further treatment.
Yes Lévrier, I believe this is also known as "swimmers". I have been breeding Bavarian Bloodhounds and Jack Russels for over 40 years and have never come across this....Another breeder told me not to give minced red meat to the puppies and wean with the Starter feed, so I decided to come on the forum, as I know there are many Professional breeders here and I wanted their opinion; I am a bit lost and Wonder if this is a genetic problem ( I do not intend to breed from these two dogs again)or simply understand what could have caused this?
What are the chances of recovery and is it sensible to try to save them? Would it be kinder to PTS?
Thanks for reading up to now!

 

[marotelle]

Thankyou Cinnmontoast; its interresting reading, i I have now looked up 'swimmers' on the net and I am still unsure of the cause for this problem,some say its a lack of vitamin E but no
one seems really sure.
It does give me some hope, I shall massage and rub the hind legs , try getting them to lie on their side rather then on their tummies,not so sure about the hobbles; as for warm baths,I would worry about getting them dry enough so they don't catch pneumonia!
It sounds like I will have a busy fortnight ahead;thankfully they don't seem to be suffering and none so far are choking.
Thanks for the advice.

 

[jasmine]

I have no advice on the pups I'm afraid, but when we have litters, we always wean straight on to minced beef and goats milk . Hope they are ok x

 

[marotelle]

Thankyou Jasmine, I am toying more and more with the idea of feeding them with the meat/milk solution. I have a goat farmer living close, by I might pop over to collect some milk....Have you tried weaning them as early as 3 weeks?

 

[Dry Rot]

A bit of an aside really as I have no experience of swimmers but I found it helped puppies to have a small sheet of expanded polystyrene with plywood over the top UNDER the bed to keep pups warm. Especially useful if you use a heat lamp which tends to cook on one side and freeze on the under side! Puppies do urinate and make a bed damp as moisture condenses on the cold under surface. Using insulation prevents that.

I also have a thin concrete floor laid to a slight fall in the sleeping area of all my kennels over the top of the same polystyrene with a damp proof membrane. Commercial piggeries use a similar system. It makes the kennels easy to wash out but the floor is nice and warm and retains body heat.

 

[MurphysMinder]

I wondered what flat puppy syndrome was too, yes they sound like swimmers. I've always heard vet bed recommended as being easy for pups to get a purchase on, massage is also recommended.
I had a singleton pup once that was very fat and took a while to get up on its legs but it wasnt a huge concern to us and she got going eventually.
With regard to weaning food, for years we weaned straight onto raw mince beef, scraped to make it even finer, and even though I used complete feed for my last litters they always started on mince for the first few days. I usually start introducing food at around 3 weeks but don't think I would totally remove the bitch at this stage, hopefully as they grow your pups will become more active, if they were mine I don't think I would be hugely concerned but I am not a vet, and of course haven't seen them.

 

[marotelle]

I always used Vetbeds, as they are so absorbent and seem to allow a one way system so to speak,the wet goes through but the top layer remains dry;obviously the mats must be removed and washed daily if not twice a day, depending in how clean the bitch is with her pups.
Later I devide the park with the vetbed and newspaper, I find the pups get the idea pretty fast, they are generally quite clean and prefer to sleep on the vetbed and only soil the newspaper.
With the Bavarian bloodhounds , the litters are larger,usually nine to twelve pups.With those
I start them with the Vetbed and use ambiose on the toilet side, in this manner it is easier to keep them clean.
I find you cannot expect them to be clean if one keeps them in filthy conditions,believe me 9 or twelve, six to eight week old b bloodhounds can be pretty messy!
Here in Belgium, they have brought in a new law concerning the sale of pups who are sold abroad, they are only allowed to leave at the age of FOUR months. This is done to protect them from the exessive sale of Under age pups , coming from the Eastern European countries.
This was a very necessary dicision, but in the case of the Bavarian Bloodhound it can prove disastrous ;as this is a very sensitive breed and they can react badly to sudden changes such as flying or meeting new owners.....They need careful socialising ,a feeling of belonging and at that age can be traumatised.
But this is beside the point,back to my little swimmers;the vet says the vetbeds,blankets are too difficult for the little ones to get a grip and be able to stand.Carpets get filthy and are difficult to keep hygienic.I use plywood in their play area when they are older, infact I always have a sheet over the stone shingles in order to keep them warm; i would worry about having
any polystyrene where they could get at it ,as it were.I think I will try the old fashioned newspaper, and hope they will be able to stand and be able to move around ,rather faster than later!
Many thanks to all your sugestions, I am truly grateful and will try some of them, hoping the little fellows start responding.