Flat Tree Dressage Saddles with knee blocks?

[mckulley1]

Does anyone know of a Dressage saddle manufacturer that produces a FLAT tree saddle with EXTERNAL knee blacks? I don't need a native/cob or hoop tree, but I do need a wide tree. I was looking heavily at the Ideal Suzannah's for their flat tree and wide models but they only have internal knee blocks and you can't remove them.

 

[sbloom]

Does anyone know of a Dressage saddle manufacturer that produces a FLAT tree saddle with EXTERNAL knee blacks? I don't need a native/cob or hoop tree, but I do need a wide tree. I was looking heavily at the Ideal Suzannah's for their flat tree and wide models but they only have internal knee blocks and you can't remove them.

Can you not have them on velcro as an option, I'd have thought you could?

There are lots of ways of having a more open seat and smaller blocks and any bench made saddler should be able to help - ie most of the wooden treed British brands. However, selecting a flatter tree often means not having a modern dressage tree and can be a bit more complicated. I would say the Suzannah is not a flat/open seat though and you're right that most aren't.

I fit probably 99% flat/open seats, I do see others sometimes but often they're slightly alternative saddles such as Strada, Balance (though some of theirs and Lavinia Mitchells are pretty deep)...I would find a good fitter who can come to you and see what they can offer, most should be able to find you something that at least ticks those boxes.

 

[mckulley1]

It's not the flat SEAT that I"m looking for. But a flat TREE. This mare doesn't have much shape leaving her withers. She has withers, average ones. But she goes very straight towards the hips. Not much curve. SO the curved or semi curved trees cause pressure points.
I like a deep seat myself, for this mare, because she is consistently inconsistent in her behavior and is prone to tantrums. I sat in a few saddles at the tack store yesterday, one with a knee block, one with out. And I could certainly go with out a knee block, I was thinking of all of the applications last year where a block would have made me that much more secure as to be MORE confident with retraining her through these behaviors she can have. I realize that's not their purpose, and I also know I won't be in this particular saddle forever, too.

On the Ideal Suzannah you can't put external blocks because the flap has a cupping to it, so I think if you removed the internal block you'd have this weird flap going on.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

You might be better off trying something on a hoop or cob tree as they tend to be wider in the gullet at the front so they sit better on a horse that has a flatter back behind the wither.

I have lavinia Mitchell Dressage saddles one is on a flatter tree for my wider flatter backed horse, my saddles are the older models that were designed by Lavinia the newer ones are not so I can't comment on those unfortunately.

 

[mckulley1]

You might be better off trying something on a hoop or cob tree as they tend to be wider in the gullet at the front so they sit better on a horse that has a flatter back behind the wither.

I have lavinia Mitchell Dressage saddles one is on a flatter tree for my wider flatter backed horse, my saddles are the older models that were designed by Lavinia the newer ones are not so I can't comment on those unfortunately.

Pinkyboots, My concern with a hoop tree is that it would conflict with her withers? She does have them. They aren't "high" but she's by no means mutton withered. She's sort of like two horses put together LOL. In the shoulders she's very average. Her wither tracing puts her at needing a 5 inch gullet/front gusset. but as she goes along her flatter back, she widens like a Y. Warmblood in front, Cob in the back. LOL

 

[ycbm]

You can get a deep seat on a flat y bar in a WOW with a variety of dressage flaps with fixed and moveable blocks. You should be able to adjust the air and the gullet plate and not have to swap the saddle as she changes shape with maturity.

Marmite saddles, some people hate them. I would never use one without a sheepskin pad, some horses can feel the airbag overlap.
.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Fair enough just though it worth a mention have you ever tried a Black country saddles they tend to fit the wider horse quite well.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Pinkyboots, My concern with a hoop tree is that it would conflict with her withers? She does have them. They aren't "high" but she's by no means mutton withered. She's sort of like two horses put together LOL. In the shoulders she's very average. Her wither tracing puts her at needing a 5 inch gullet/front gusset. but as she goes along her flatter back, she widens like a Y. Warmblood in front, Cob in the back. LOL

My big elphant had small withers but was on a hoop tree. SB fitted a AH saddle to him and it worked well for his shape.

 

[blitznbobs]

albion do two trees one flat one curved

 

[Sciath]

Saddle company witha good fitter for a custom made might be a way to go? I ended up with a VSD with close contact tree, flat seat and dropped back panels for my awkward wide standie.

 

[sbloom]

It's not the flat SEAT that I"m looking for. But a flat TREE. This mare doesn't have much shape leaving her withers. She has withers, average ones. But she goes very straight towards the hips. Not much curve. SO the curved or semi curved trees cause pressure points.
I like a deep seat myself, for this mare, because she is consistently inconsistent in her behavior and is prone to tantrums. I sat in a few saddles at the tack store yesterday, one with a knee block, one with out. And I could certainly go with out a knee block, I was thinking of all of the applications last year where a block would have made me that much more secure as to be MORE confident with retraining her through these behaviors she can have. I realize that's not their purpose, and I also know I won't be in this particular saddle forever, too.

On the Ideal Suzannah you can't put external blocks because the flap has a cupping to it, so I think if you removed the internal block you'd have this weird flap going on.

There are so many different ways to fit slightly wider or flatter backs, it's not necessarily the curve from front to the middle (and then the corresponding curve up to the cantle, whether it's excessively high or not) that needs to be lower, as she does have wither, but you need wider/flatter rails and the right panel shape to match.

This is why discussion of everything with saddles needs to be nuanced, you'd not want a truly flat tree for a moderate wither. Rail shape is key, and you'll need the appropriate gusset at the back IF you have a traditional British style saddle where weight is designed to be carried across the maximum area (which is only one way of fitting https://stephaniebloomsaddlefitter.co.uk/blog-and-resources/why-cant-saddle-fitters-agree).

Security is best coming from the right shaped seat for your pelvis, then you have the most fundamental support you can possibly get, but it's a far from common way to fit a saddle. Once you have that then a deep seat and blocks become moot, and in so many cases, unhelpful or counterproductive, I see it with customers all the time. I'm a little confused on the blocks, you want external but mentioned being able to remove, or not, regular blocks on the sweat flap...a surface block is the most unforgiving, if it's in the wrong place then it can make things trickier, and the bigger it is, in the wrong place, the worse is it. It IS slightly closer contact, then the next closest is a fixed underflap block, then a velcro one, so there are trade offs with everything.

So many bench made saddle companies would have a tree that would be roughly suitable, I honestly think the fitter has as much to do with success as which model/brand. The Suzannah is a fairly deep seat, it says it is for wider/flatter backs but the rail shape is a fraction neat for my liking, but will certainly suit some. Ideal make every saddle to order, you can easily have the Suzannah seat/tree if it fits both of you, and choose a flap from another model, or spec it without the cupped knee pad, I'd have thought.

If you want a second hand saddle for a growing horse then I would 100% advise a consultation with a fitter to get some recommendations, it's so individual.

 

[sbloom]

My big elphant had small withers but was on a hoop tree. SB fitted a AH saddle to him and it worked well for his shape.

Which model is it you have? (sorry, forgotten exactly who you are, forgive me!)

 

[mckulley1]

There are so many different ways to fit slightly wider or flatter backs, it's not necessarily the curve from front to the middle (and then the corresponding curve up to the cantle, whether it's excessively high or not) that needs to be lower, as she does have wither, but you need wider/flatter rails and the right panel shape to match.

This is why discussion of everything with saddles needs to be nuanced, you'd not want a truly flat tree for a moderate wither. Rail shape is key, and you'll need the appropriate gusset at the back IF you have a traditional British style saddle where weight is designed to be carried across the maximum area (which is only one way of fitting https://stephaniebloomsaddlefitter.co.uk/blog-and-resources/why-cant-saddle-fitters-agree).

Security is best coming from the right shaped seat for your pelvis, then you have the most fundamental support you can possibly get, but it's a far from common way to fit a saddle. Once you have that then a deep seat and blocks become moot, and in so many cases, unhelpful or counterproductive, I see it with customers all the time. I'm a little confused on the blocks, you want external but mentioned being able to remove, or not, regular blocks on the sweat flap...a surface block is the most unforgiving, if it's in the wrong place then it can make things trickier, and the bigger it is, in the wrong place, the worse is it. It IS slightly closer contact, then the next closest is a fixed underflap block, then a velcro one, so there are trade offs with everything.

So many bench made saddle companies would have a tree that would be roughly suitable, I honestly think the fitter has as much to do with success as which model/brand. The Suzannah is a fairly deep seat, it says it is for wider/flatter backs but the rail shape is a fraction neat for my liking, but will certainly suit some. Ideal make every saddle to order, you can easily have the Suzannah seat/tree if it fits both of you, and choose a flap from another model, or spec it without the cupped knee pad, I'd have thought.

If you want a second hand saddle for a growing horse then I would 100% advise a consultation with a fitter to get some recommendations, it's so individual.

Love all this information. Unfortunately I am not in a position to buy custom or brand new. The only saddle fitter in the area is going to be using USA brands on my obviously UK style Irish mare. And I would hope after 25 years of ownership and riding, I could at least figure out a place to start. HA! But suffice to say, USA brands, IMO are simply not going to work with this mare.

Her wither tracing showed she was still in an A style tree, that's why I don't think a hoop try would work well for her? But having never used a hoop tree, perhaps I'm wrong. I just wonder if she's going to get that wither clearance.

I know the Ideal International Event, having just been checked and re-flocked, was putting pressure point along the mid back, around and inch or two before the end of the panel. And those saddles have a semi-curve to them, so I'm told and obviously can see with my eyes. It was also a MW where her wither tracing is putting her toward a Wide.

Her girth groove is very far forward and any forward paneled saddle tends to lay over her shoulder more than seems normal to the eye. She is very compact. So to properly place the saddle where it needs to be when it comes to placement and girthing, I think simply means she needs a straighter panel to avoid conflict with the shoulders and being able to place it so the girth isn't at this extreme angle, which works on those pressure points.

I know she needs a long supporting leg at this time. She is most familiar with it, and needs it so I can maintain security during her tantrums.
Which has all led me to looking toward a Dressage saddle, as our work is on the flat anyway, at this time. Something that is compact with a seat/panel side near equal to each other as she is compact.

 

[mckulley1]

This is a Duett with a hoop tree. No pad. NO GIRTH. Just sitting. They didn't take a photo from the side, sorry!

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Which model is it you have? (sorry, forgotten exactly who you are, forgive me!)

Super cob gp, in the MK area, the big white appaloosa.

Dont worry, its been a few years and we lost him a yr and a half ago now. Just in the process of sending it to Andrea to sell.

 

[sbloom]

Love all this information. Unfortunately I am not in a position to buy custom or brand new. The only saddle fitter in the area is going to be using USA brands on my obviously UK style Irish mare. And I would hope after 25 years of ownership and riding, I could at least figure out a place to start. HA! But suffice to say, USA brands, IMO are simply not going to work with this mare.

Her wither tracing showed she was still in an A style tree, that's why I don't think a hoop try would work well for her? But having never used a hoop tree, perhaps I'm wrong. I just wonder if she's going to get that wither clearance.

I know the Ideal International Event, having just been checked and re-flocked, was putting pressure point along the mid back, around and inch or two before the end of the panel. And those saddles have a semi-curve to them, so I'm told and obviously can see with my eyes. It was also a MW where her wither tracing is putting her toward a Wide.

Her girth groove is very far forward and any forward paneled saddle tends to lay over her shoulder more than seems normal to the eye. She is very compact. So to properly place the saddle where it needs to be when it comes to placement and girthing, I think simply means she needs a straighter panel to avoid conflict with the shoulders and being able to place it so the girth isn't at this extreme angle, which works on those pressure points.

I know she needs a long supporting leg at this time. She is most familiar with it, and needs it so I can maintain security during her tantrums.
Which has all led me to looking toward a Dressage saddle, as our work is on the flat anyway, at this time. Something that is compact with a seat/panel side near equal to each other as she is compact.

Horses up to XXXW can still be A frame shaped, it drives me nuts that we're sent to brands like Duett which supposedly have a hoop tree (though they still look V shaped to me) which don't have good rail shapes. I didn't mention hoop trees so not sure of the context of the recommendation, but see this video on hoop trees

. I may wade into a debate on FB in a Stubben led saddle fitting group where A framed trees are seen as the enemy, there is A frame and there is A frame, and I've yet to see a "U shaped" horse, the latter being a saddle fitting philosophy rather than something that is intrinsically shaped to suit a certain type of horse.

The panel on the shoulder isn't always an issue, and yet again depends on the way the saddle is designed and fitted. For the brand designed to carry weight right to the front and rear of the panel, getting the tree points in the right place means that, unless the shoulders are prominent as a result of postural issues (common but not always extreme) and/or there is a lack of muscle behind the shoulder blade, the horse has shoulder freedom. The flap/panel cut is much less important, so often, than people think.

The Ideal Event is a very middle of the road tree. Placing pressure towards the back of the saddle is more likely to do with fitting than tree shape. Adjusting the flocking a few mm can make no end of difference. A point strap helps with a forward girth groove but the fit must be 100% so that the front of the saddle isn't pulled down.

Super cob gp, in the MK area, the big white appaloosa.

Dont worry, its been a few years and we lost him a yr and a half ago now. Just in the process of sending it to Andrea to sell.

Ahh hello! So sorry to hear you've lost him

 

[mckulley1]

This is a Duett with a hoop tree. No pad. NO GIRTH. Just sitting. They didn't take a photo from the side, sorry!

Horses up to XXXW can still be A frame shaped, it drives me nuts that we're sent to brands like Duett which supposedly have a hoop tree (though they still look V shaped to me) which don't have good rail shapes. I didn't mention hoop trees so not sure of the context of the recommendation, but see this video on hoop trees

. I may wade into a debate on FB in a Stubben led saddle fitting group where A framed trees are seen as the enemy, there is A frame and there is A frame, and I've yet to see a "U shaped" horse, the latter being a saddle fitting philosophy rather than something that is intrinsically shaped to suit a certain type of horse.

The panel on the shoulder isn't always an issue, and yet again depends on the way the saddle is designed and fitted. For the brand designed to carry weight right to the front and rear of the panel, getting the tree points in the right place means that, unless the shoulders are prominent as a result of postural issues (common but not always extreme) and/or there is a lack of muscle behind the shoulder blade, the horse has shoulder freedom. The flap/panel cut is much less important, so often, than people think.

The Ideal Event is a very middle of the road tree. Placing pressure towards the back of the saddle is more likely to do with fitting than tree shape. Adjusting the flocking a few mm can make no end of difference. A point strap helps with a forward girth groove but the fit must be 100% so that the front of the saddle isn't pulled down.



Ahh hello! So sorry to hear you've lost him

SBloom did you see the photos I posted with a hoop tree sitting, no girth? Scroll up to view.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

This is a Duett with a hoop tree. No pad. NO GIRTH. Just sitting. They didn't take a photo from the side, sorry!

I'm no saddle fitter but that looks like it's been placed too far forward to me but the photos may be making it look like that.

 

[mckulley1]

I'm no saddle fitter but that looks like it's been placed too far forward to me but the photos may be making it look like that.

Yeah, it may be, since I wasn't there. But truthfully when you first put a saddle on her where you "think" it will sit and where it DOES sit are two different issues. She's very short backed over all, and because she's flatter after the wither rather than dipped, with a very forward girth groove, that's just where it sits. I do a lot of allowing it to settle where it chooses to during ground warm up, which is always in conflict with her girth groove. But what is there to be done for it? Not much that I can tell.

 

[sbloom]

SBloom did you see the photos I posted with a hoop tree sitting, no girth? Scroll up to view.

Very hard to tell much, the width/angle of the points looks about right but yes, can't even tell if it's in the right place and without girthing it you can't really say. Saddles should be girthed firmly and a whole body shot taken from both sides. Tree points 2-3 fingers behind the very back edge of the shoulder blade which is further back than most realise.

 

[sbloom]

Yeah, it may be, since I wasn't there. But truthfully when you first put a saddle on her where you "think" it will sit and where it DOES sit are two different issues. She's very short backed over all, and because she's flatter after the wither rather than dipped, with a very forward girth groove, that's just where it sits. I do a lot of allowing it to settle where it chooses to during ground warm up, which is always in conflict with her girth groove. But what is there to be done for it? Not much that I can tell.

That's the saddle moving to the wrong place, not uncommon when lunging etc, but you must move it back before mounting and it must stay there when you ride. Myriad reasons, from horse saddle AND rider as to why a saddle may move forwards. A forward girth groove is tricky sometimes, but usually not a barrier to a good fit.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Yeah, it may be, since I wasn't there. But truthfully when you first put a saddle on her where you "think" it will sit and where it DOES sit are two different issues. She's very short backed over all, and because she's flatter after the wither rather than dipped, with a very forward girth groove, that's just where it sits. I do a lot of allowing it to settle where it chooses to during ground warm up, which is always in conflict with her girth groove. But what is there to be done for it? Not much that I can tell.

My friend who rides my Louis always puts the saddle too far forward and his saddle will always navigate forward if it does anything, I laugh shove it back and tell her she will be kissing his ears if we leave it there

It's quite a common thing alot of people do I've noticed.

 

[sbloom]

My friend who rides my Louis always puts the saddle too far forward and his saddle will always navigate forward if it does anything, I laugh shove it back and tell her she will be kissing his ears if we leave it there

It's quite a common thing alot of people do I've noticed.

Even when people "find" the back of the shoulder blade, it's often the wrong spot. You need to firmly palpate it, clearly ON the shoulder blade, then keep palpating as you move your hand backwards along the body until it actually drops OFF the back edge of the scapula. Usually it's quite clear, and further back than most realise. Sometimes it's hard to find, and not just on chubsters

 

[mckulley1]

That's the saddle moving to the wrong place, not uncommon when lunging etc, but you must move it back before mounting and it must stay there when you ride. Myriad reasons, from horse saddle AND rider as to why a saddle may move forwards. A forward girth groove is tricky sometimes, but usually not a barrier to a good fit.

Yes, it always has to get pulled forward. It doesn't slip back "badly" but will certainly. Usually at the stirrup cup I have to get off and pull it back forward.

 

[mckulley1]

Even when people "find" the back of the shoulder blade, it's often the wrong spot. You need to firmly palpate it, clearly ON the shoulder blade, then keep palpating as you move your hand backwards along the body until it actually drops OFF the back edge of the scapula. Usually it's quite clear, and further back than most realise. Sometimes it's hard to find, and not just on chubsters

 

[mckulley1]

She was a little butt high here. But structure is the same. I had her in an Ideal VSD Event but it became too narrow with work. I had pressure points at the wither and over the first lumbar.

 

[sbloom]

Yes, it always has to get pulled forward. It doesn't slip back "badly" but will certainly. Usually at the stirrup cup I have to get off and pull it back forward.

This is getting really confusing, the comment was that the saddle looked too far forwards, you're now saying it moves backwards.

Often saddles that move backwards are moving to the correct place, see my com ends aboutthe shohdke4 blade for correct placement. If you'd like comments on the fit of the saddle we need photos of the saddle on the horse, again see my comments about hiw to frame the photos, girthing it up etc.

 

[mckulley1]

This is getting really confusing, the comment was that the saddle looked too far forwards, you're now saying it moves backwards.

Often saddles that move backwards are moving to the correct place, see my com ends aboutthe shohdke4 blade for correct placement. If you'd like comments on the fit of the saddle we need photos of the saddle on the horse, again see my comments about hiw to frame the photos, girthing it up etc.

Yes, it does move backward. Her girth groove is forward, where you want to sit the saddle is always forward. Because that's not where it actually should be, so it travels backward, to where it wants to be, which puts it at conflict with her girth groove location and the girth always has an angle to it, or will slid past the girth groove (so she wears a breast collar). It's probably confusing to describe, as it's just her structure. What it is though, is hard to fit. And, those pictures of a hoop tree were purely just sitting it up there to see if it was a complete no on the shape of the tree for the fact she has medium withers. Yes it would need to be girthed, etc, but I wasn't there when these were taken. I did post two photos so you can see, how her topline is a bit skewed from her bottom line. Things don't quite line up like they do on others. I've certainly heard it described in the same way on other Irish and IDSH's. But she's a first for me in the alignment issue.