Flat work

Armas

Armas

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Its not all galloping around the garden and jumping bareback :rolleyes:

Some of this weeks flat work.

[youtube]IfAEGHmi3Rc[/youtube]
 
I only watched the first few minutes as just going out, will watch the whole later but what I saw made me feel rather sorry for Armas he looked very confused, not sure of what was expected of him and I could see nothing constructive being achieved.
I have enjoyed seeing him jumping in previous videos but this one was not pleasant viewing from the part I saw.
 
I must've been watching a different video then, as I didn't see anything very concerning :confused: Not a fan of all the small circle work, but always good to see lateral work being taught in hand, and he looked to be getting the idea nicely at times.
 
I thought the horse looked sound. The in-hand lateral movement looked nice (my horse sometimes looks confused when I try this as well. It is hard. I wouldn't post a video of it here, for fear of being slagged off for confusing my poor horse. We can't all be Nuno Oliviera). I would do less small circle work, though, especially at canter as the horse seemed to just be motorcycling around, which isn't of any benefit to anyone.
 
We have been working on better engagement both in hand and ridden and this comes from trying to achieve a classic dressage outline and I believe that this is best achieved by circles, lateral work and we are working towards passage & piaffe.
 
Quality circles, maybe, with bend and balance. Less so the horse charging around leaning on his inside shoulder.

Surely the classical dressage outline comes from engagement rather than the other way around.
 
Delicious_D said:
^^ passage and piaffe wont aid engagement, engagement aids passage and piaffe.
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Yes, this. I was under the impression that passage and piaffe don't appear 'till the Grand Prix as they showcase just how engaged and educated your horse truly has become , rather than being exercises for creating engagement in the first place.
 
JFTD said:
I must've been watching a different video then, as I didn't see anything very concerning :confused: Not a fan of all the small circle work, but always good to see lateral work being taught in hand, and he looked to be getting the idea nicely at times.
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Yup me too, I thought the horse looked more relaxed than he has for a long time.


ETA: I don't think he looked uncomfortable either, looks the best I have ever seen him tbh.
 
Delicious_D said:
^^ passage and piaffe wont aid engagement, engagement aids passage and piaffe.
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I kind of disagree with this, I have trained one of my horses to passage and it has improved her collected trot to a degree I would not have thought possible, yes the horse is only competing at medium and passage is not required at that level BUT she has always shown a talent for it and offers it, so I take it.

Every horse is different and reacts to training differently, yes you can have a basic plan but, the art of good horsemanship is knowing when to deviate from that plan (and when not to).
 
Amaranta said:
I kind of disagree with this, I have trained one of my horses to passage and it has improved her collected trot to a degree I would not have thought possible, yes the horse is only competing at medium and passage is not required at that level BUT she has always shown a talent for it and offers it, so I take it.

Every horse is different and reacts to training differently, yes you can have a basic plan but, the art of good horsemanship is knowing when to deviate from that plan (and when not to).
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Yet again I find my self having to agree with you.

I have just discovered the ignore list what a wonderful control :eek:
 
Caol Ila said:
Yes, this. I was under the impression that passage and piaffe don't appear 'till the Grand Prix as they showcase just how engaged and educated your horse truly has become , rather than being exercises for creating engagement in the first place.
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Delicious_D said:
^^ passage and piaffe wont aid engagement, engagement aids passage and piaffe.
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Haven't seen the videos so can't comment on them.

However, I would disagree with the above.
Lots of dressage trainers and riders start to train half steps and the beginnings of piaffe and passage when the horse is 5 or 6 as it really does help to develop sit and engagement in the horse in their basic work.

I used to work for a rider who had been a pupil of the Spanish Riding School and also Reiner Klimke and we regularly worked the 5yros in hand to develop steps of piaffe and these horses were far away from GP level.
Once they got the hang of it in hand they would do a few sessions under saddle with someone on the floor.
 
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Delicious_D said:
The idea of passage is collection to the nth degree. In order to collect you need engagement so therefore imho you need the engagement before you can achieve the collection required. However, every horse is different, but even the classic masters saw a scale of training.
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Of course they did, not denying that, I am just challenging your view that passage and piaffe cannot aid collection, they can and do, and indeed I have personal experience of them doing so. The horse in question has very well established basics but also has a natural talent for both movements.
 
Delicious_D said:
And when to spend time building the basics rather then rushing ahead to reach your goals.
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Of course basics are important, they are the foundations, BUT once they are established, you have to take an individual horse's talents and build on them accordingly.

Piaffe inhand however, is a very old and established way to help aid collection, many many classical masters use it well before asking for it under saddle, it can and does work.
 
I suppose the more radical argument to be made is that horses understand engagement and movement far more than humans ever will. They know all about it even when they're young foals rearing and leaping and passaging in the field. It's us who need to develop as riders and horsemen and women in order to teach them to become engaged *with us.*
 
Not watched all of the video but what I saw was quite nice, IMHO. He steps through nicely behind on the circles. RE the lateral moves, surely they're a means to an end, not an end in themselves? Sometimes I think people believe horses mustn't be doing X movement at their level, because it doesn't appear in tests two levels above, but I've always thought (and been taught) the lateral movements are suppling (or collecting, whatever you're trying to achieve) exercises in themselves. My young horse was v babyish and unsupple (if that's a word) when I got him. He has done a couple of Prelim tests and working on all the basics at home but the key to beginning to get him straight has been introducing some baby LY and SI (well, SF initially). Just because it doesn't appear in the tests he'll be doing doesn't mean he can't start to learn it. I've done it in hand and under saddle, and it's made a huge difference to him. He's become more aware of what he's doing with his body and learning how to use different parts. The movement doesn't have to be perfect but he tries and he's becoming more supple because of it. Schooling would be very boring indeed if I waited to teach the movements until he was competing at whatever level they appear at. I don't drill those movements endlessly but I do use them to help with his straightness.

I like the video. The horse isn't perfect but surely they're all a work in progress?
 
Delicious_D said:
He looks a little uncomfortable behind on the tight circles.
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Why do you always post negative responses to Armas' videos and threads?
I have to say, it makes me think you are a tiny bit jealous, so you have to put him down all the time. It's a bit immature really...
 
lhotse said:
Why do you always post negative responses to Armas' videos and threads?
I have to say, it makes me think you are a tiny bit jealous, so you have to put him down all the time. It's a bit immature really...
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It's become a tradition surely :rolleyes:
 
IMO you use these movements to school the horse, not school the horse to perform the movements. you use lateral work to get the horse supple and straight. In hand work is hard although I wish more people tried it (much easier for the horse to get the hang of something without a rider on its back and strengthen it first), and if we aren't Luis Valenca then we shouldn't criticise.

Lovely horse, nice video :)
 
I don't feel that it should be set in stone that horses learn particular movements in a set order. We aren't teaching them anything they don't do naturally - we are just channelling their natural ability, and teaching them an aid to produce a certain movement on demand. If a horse offers a few half steps, no matter what his level of training, I'll grab the opportunity with both hands, and take advantage of him wanting to offer that level of collection. I've ridden half stepson a four year old who liked doing them, just as I have ridden changes on a young horse who was clearly destined to be a tempi change machine.
 
JFTD said:
I must've been watching a different video then, as I didn't see anything very concerning :confused: Not a fan of all the small circle work, but always good to see lateral work being taught in hand, and he looked to be getting the idea nicely at times.
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I agree.
 
lhotse said:
Why do you always post negative responses to Armas' videos and threads?
I have to say, it makes me think you are a tiny bit jealous, so you have to put him down all the time. It's a bit immature really...
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She just cant help her self sadly.

tallyho! said:
It's become a tradition surely :rolleyes:
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For her not me, as you will no doubt know I seldom comment on her posts.

peteralfred said:
IMO you use these movements to school the horse, not school the horse to perform the movements. you use lateral work to get the horse supple and straight. In hand work is hard although I wish more people tried it (much easier for the horse to get the hang of something without a rider on its back and strengthen it first), and if we aren't Luis Valenca then we shouldn't criticise.

Lovely horse, nice video :)
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Thank you.

Auslander said:
I don't feel that it should be set in stone that horses learn particular movements in a set order. We aren't teaching them anything they don't do naturally - we are just channelling their natural ability, and teaching them an aid to produce a certain movement on demand. If a horse offers a few half steps, no matter what his level of training, I'll grab the opportunity with both hands, and take advantage of him wanting to offer that level of collection. I've ridden half stepson a four year old who liked doing them, just as I have ridden changes on a young horse who was clearly destined to be a tempi change machine.
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As ever Auslander a very interesting and informative point of view.
 
Beautiful horse and from what i can see ayou both have a really good bond well done lovely video :)
 
Delicious_D said:
He looks a little uncomfortable behind on the tight circles.
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I've watched again & I would say he looks a little short stepping through to the left but he's learning so may not totally have mastered what's expected of him.
He's such a lovely horse & clearly tries to please
 
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lhotse said:
Why do you always post negative responses to Armas' videos and threads?
I have to say, it makes me think you are a tiny bit jealous, so you have to put him down all the time. It's a bit immature really...
Click to expand...

pictures of half naked men are yet to come don't forget lol

A, the beast looks good enjoy yr beach ride and mind that pony tied to a tree xx

*runs and hides*
 
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