Flying change inconsistency

Birker2020

Birker2020

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I wondered if anyone else has a problem with their horses flying changes.

My horse can do flying changes till they are coming out of his ears when there are jumps in the menage but when there are no jumps I really struggle with him.

The other weekend he was doing flying changes from both reins, consistently without a problem. There were jumps in the school which, when I'd finished doing changes jumped him over. The next day I took him in and the menage was clear and schooled him. He managed to do two from right rein to left rein, but then couldn't do left back to right again. I asked him again and again and again. Then I asked him to do the other direction (which he never struggles with) and he couldn't do them again either! In the end he got so tired and I got flustered so I gave up and brought him in. To be fair he struggles with left to right changes but when jumps are in the school never has a problem!

A week goes by of schooling and hacking and a day off. I set out jumps in the menage. Doing flying changes without a problem (on both reins).

Day before yesterday schooling, no jumps in menage. Unable to perform anything at all on any rein, eventually gives me a couple of right to lefts. Try for about twenty minutes doing left to right, eventually gave me one, to which he received raptuous applause!

Last night had a jump in the school, guess what??? Flying changes no problem, both reins!!

What difference should jumps make, as to whether my horse changes or not?????
My stirrups only go up one hole from flat work and spurs/lack of spurs makes no difference.
Still warmed up the same. I'm trying not to turn it into a big issue, but secretly its frustrating me to death.
 
Inside leg on the girth outside behind, ask for the change by swapping so inside leg on the girth (on the new inside of the new bend if that makes sense). I am also helping the horse by 'neck reining'. When I am in a jump off and want him to land on a certain leg, whilst in the air over a jump I will bring my outside rein across slightly on his neck and 'open up' the new inside hand. So I am doing this on the change. I am also making sure that we canter straight for a couple of strides and I am also trying to ask when the new bend inside hind is in suspension. This is by feel not by sight though obviously.

It might be me, not sat straight. I shouldn't automattically blame the horse.

The horse has worse spavin in his right hock (although you wouldn't know to watch him that there was anything wrong with him) and he has a recent (repaired) hind suspensory branch injury inside his hear hind.
 
hes an old boy with multiple problems, i would guess the adrenalin of jumping allows him to skip behind and change but when asked in *cold blood* he finds it too hard/painful.

hes never going to be an adv med dressage horse so why not leave him alone?

and before anyone jumps on me, go read all the OP previous threads. this is ridiculous.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
hes an old boy with multiple problems, i would guess the adrenalin of jumping allows him to skip behind and change but when asked in *cold blood* he finds it too hard/painful.

hes never going to be an adv med dressage horse so why not leave him alone?

and before anyone jumps on me, go read all the OP previous threads. this is ridiculous.
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I have to agree with this. It was a really hard decision for me with my old boy to take a step back when we stopped progressing as much as we had been. He owes me absolutely nothing and has given me so much. Why do you need to do flying changes on the flat? Surely he is trying to tell you something. The hardest part of owning a horse is putting our egos to one side and listening to them.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
hes an old boy with multiple problems, i would guess the adrenalin of jumping allows him to skip behind and change but when asked in *cold blood* he finds it too hard/painful.

hes never going to be an adv med dressage horse so why not leave him alone?

and before anyone jumps on me, go read all the OP previous threads. this is ridiculous.
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Agree you have just said he has had two big issues in his hind legs why would you want to be doing flying changes!
 
I know nothing about flying changes; my only comment would be that trying to achieve the same thing for a whole 20 mins seems pointless to me. I ask for something then if I don't get it try again then reassess. If you're asking for 20 min and not getting it then you either have a very confused horse or one who physically can't do it. I expect my horse to at least try when I ask for something then we can build on that.
 
I have the opposite problem. In a dressage saddle and canter I can get changes no probs. In a jumping saddle once we get into a forwards jumping canter he gets a bit on the forehand and can't do a clean change to save his life. Frustrating given I only taught him them for jumping! I would definitely be thinking something physical if he refused to give me them at all though.
 
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star said:
I have the opposite problem. In a dressage saddle and canter I can get changes no probs. In a jumping saddle once we get into a forwards jumping canter he gets a bit on the forehand and can't do a clean change to save his life. Frustrating given I only taught him them for jumping! I would definitely be thinking something physical if he refused to give me them at all though.
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Its nothing physical. He's been seen by the vet and he's fine. He doesn't refuse to give them me all the time, just mainly when we do flat work.
I might have known not to ask a simple question on here, because all I get is silly sad remarks from the usual crowd. The horse is sound, happy in his work and back jumping again. THe vet gave him the all clear weeks ago, I've done three comps with him, two dressage and one jumping. Our first time back jumping 5th out of 35 in the class, placed 5th and 2nd in dressage. If he was uncomfortable in his work he wouldn't jump, move sound in front of a judge. Simple.

I don't want him to be an advanced medium dressage horse, I really don't know why anyone would think this!!???? I really can't believe some people on this forum...... words escape me. Typical of FB though.

Maybe I should be euthanased as I have two slipped discs, plantar fascitis and a serious dislike for people who don't know what they are talking about :)
 
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all you do is post about how the horse is lame. then sound.then lame.then sound.

and in between about how he is being pushed to jump and now to learn a completely new skill and wonder why people cant stop pointing out the blindingly obvious-the horse is not comfortable with the level of work!

thankfully the people that have genuine horse sense wont back down and i for one wont stop pointing this out because it barely falls short of abuse.
 
I was always taught that you don't ask for changes until the horse is strong enough to do them - they may offer them anyway as yours is doing whilst jumping but by refusing to do them on the flat when asked I would say that he's not strong enough in himself to do them. Along with the ongoing issues that you've had with him I would look at working with him to strengthen up before asking him for changes.
 
applecart14 said:
Its nothing physical. He's been seen by the vet and he's fine. He doesn't refuse to give them me all the time, just mainly when we do flat work.
I might have known not to ask a simple question on here, because all I get is silly sad remarks from the usual crowd. The horse is sound, happy in his work and back jumping again. THe vet gave him the all clear weeks ago, I've done three comps with him, two dressage and one jumping. Our first time back jumping 5th out of 35 in the class, placed 5th and 2nd in dressage. If he was uncomfortable in his work he wouldn't jump, move sound in front of a judge. Simple.

I don't want him to be an advanced medium dressage horse, I really don't know why anyone would think this!!???? I really can't believe some people on this forum...... words escape me. Typical of FB though.

Maybe I should be euthanased as I have two slipped discs, plantar fascitis and a serious dislike for people who don't know what they are talking about :)
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If you don't want stupid replies don't ask stupid questions it's obvious your horse is getting older his had quite a few health issues which will effect his performance, common sense tells you that he may struggle with more difficult things now so maybe give him a break from it rather than continue to push him beyond his means, and vets will often say a horse can return back to the same level of work but it does not mean it's right, they don't ride the horse and see it on a daily basis you do so I think an owner of a horse can often have a much better idea of what a horse can cope with you would think anyway.
 
Amazed to be reading this post and that the OP can still say 'it's nothing physical' and doesn't seem to understand the concept that they are relatives of comfort.

PS's point is if you don't want him to be a adv medium dressage horse why does he need to do changes.
 
ester said:
Amazed to be reading this post and that the OP can still say 'it's nothing physical' and doesn't seem to understand the concept that they are relatives of comfort.

PS's point is if you don't want him to be a adv medium dressage horse why does he need to do changes.
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We are all in stitches at the yard where I keep my horse reading the daft replies and comments on my perfectly reasonable question about flying changes. Those that know Bailey, see him on a daily basis and see him ridden cannot understand how those that don't know him, have never met him, never seen him in action and don't know his veterinary history OR ARE EVEN QUALIFIED VETS can stand in judgement about soemthing they know nothing about.

All this crap about me being in denial, being cruel, etc etc, for goodness sake get a grip on reality.

A horse doesn't need to be an advanced dressage horse in order to do flying changes, anymore than it needs to be a racehorse to enjoy a gallop, or be a endurance horse to go on a 12 mile fun ride. I can't even believe you ask such a stupid question!!!!!!????????? Duh.

You idiots really spoil my enjoyment of this forum which is why I hardly ever venture on here anymore.
 
I am fairly sure that at least one of the posters to this thread is a qualified vet.
Ultimately he is your horse and you can do as you please with him, however there are many people on this forum with vast arrays of experience who have offered you advise which you have chosen to ignore or brand as silly. That is your choice. If you don't want peoples opinions why post at all?
 
Can your horse reliably perform walk-canter, counter canter and simple changes in self carriage and a soft, consistent outline? If not then the basics just aren't there to do a correct flying change. It's one thing to rush them on an adrenaline boost when jumping, but (I believe you are realizing) quite another to perform them correctly on the flat. Improve the quality of the canter, get the earlier building blocks in place and then the changes will take care of themselves - it's not fair to pressure your horse to perform a 'party piece' when it doesn't sound as if (for whatever reason) the basis is there.
 
Possum said:
Can your horse reliably perform walk-canter, counter canter and simple changes in self carriage and a soft, consistent outline? If not then the basics just aren't there to do a correct flying change. It's one thing to rush them on an adrenaline boost when jumping, but (I believe you are realizing) quite another to perform them correctly on the flat. Improve the quality of the canter, get the earlier building blocks in place and then the changes will take care of themselves - it's not fair to pressure your horse to perform a 'party piece' when it doesn't sound as if (for whatever reason) the basis is there.
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He can do changes on the flat as I explained twice, so its nothing to do with the 'adrenalin' of jumping. As for 'rushing' he is 18 years of age?? He can do walk to canter, canter to walk, counter canter, and simple changes. Always has been able to. We've done elementary together.
It could be the quality of the canter and most probably me when it comes down to it not sitting straight maybe, or doing dressage in a GP saddle (as I have alwasy done up to elementary by the way). But its not because he is in pain, that is laughable. I'm not pressuring him into a party piece either..... weird your outlook on things...... but still. At least your reply was more sensible than the others... by a slim margin.

Do you know what I really can't be bothered to come on this forum again. I've been on about three times in the last few weeks, but I find the company tedious and the replies nonsensical, predictable and very inaccurate.

Thanks for giving me 'permission' to ride my horse Samsbilly. I asked for a sensible solution to a sensible question, not people who like to think they are vets with no knowledge of my horse giving their opinions about trash. Or those that like to think they are more qualified than my vets, plenty of those on here who think I should change my vet, have my horse put to sleep, retire him and everything in between.

Like I say, we all have a hoot anyway. Those that know Bailey find it very funny.
 
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But you post with such regularity and in detail about your horses lengthy medical problems and what work you do with him so how can you say we don't know his history. It comes straight from the horses mouth, so to speak !!

You are right, a horse doesn't need to be an advanced dressage horse to perform a change, but it must have the basics established as Possum points out so clearly and it must be physically capable. With all the issues Bailey has had, it would be reasonable to assume that something like a change would be harder for him to do in cold blood. And as you are spending quite a while getting know where it would suggest he either doesn't understand what you are asking or he can't physically manage it.


If you posted this on the BD forum for instance, with the other forum members being aware of the physical issues and age of your horse, I am pretty sure you'd get the same response !!!

As for having a grip on reality, who are you talking about ? Yourself ? If your enjoyment of the forum is spoiled I am afraid you bring much of that on yourself with your inflammatory responses and aggressive tone. I think I've mentioned this before.
 
KautoStar1 said:
But you post with such regularity and in detail about your horses lengthy medical problems and what work you do with him so how can you say we don't know his history.
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sorry but I am so bored with this now and really don't care what any of you think.
You are a bunch of fools.
 
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Do you know me in person!?

Pop someone else on him experienced with changes and that might show if it is you sitting straight/your timing or him.

Oh you edited... For others I asked the first question because applecart claimed to (sadly!) know me in person. AFAIK they don't and I have never met them!
 
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applecart14 said:
He can do changes on the flat as I explained twice, so its nothing to do with the 'adrenalin' of jumping. As for 'rushing' he is 18 years of age?? He can do walk to canter, canter to walk, counter canter, and simple changes. Always has been able to. We've done elementary together.
It could be the quality of the canter and most probably me when it comes down to it not sitting straight maybe, or doing dressage in a GP saddle (as I have alwasy done up to elementary by the way). But its not because he is in pain, that is laughable. I'm not pressuring him into a party piece either..... weird your outlook on things...... but still. At least your reply was more sensible than the others... by a slim margin.
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Not quite sure why I'm bothering to reply to such an abusive poster, but once more on the offchance that you are a reasonable person with a bad case of foot in mouth disease...

I didn't mean 'rushing' as in age, I meant rhythm/tempo. If you're jumping, everything's a bit more exciting and it's easier to blast through a poor quality change than it is to do it in a more 'academic' fashion on the flat.

So if I understand correctly, you have an 18yo horse who has previously competed at ele, and is now reluctant to change unless there are jumps out. This suggests that the quality of his canter and his suppleness isn't what it once was. This could be for SO many reasons - if he's lost muscle from being off work with whatever lameness issues he's had, if you've been less demanding of him in the school and let him get away with having a flat canter, you're not sitting straight or there is still something physically niggling him. As you've had the vet though, I think in all instances my recommendation would be the same - take a step back, don't beast him round for 20 minutes trying to get him to do a change work on the quality of your canter - half circles, simple changes, counter canter, shoulder in and LOTS of transitions. Video yourself to see how you both look. Then when everything else has improved, try popping a change in towards the middle/end of a schooling session and see what happens. If after a few weeks of work you haven't noticed any real change then I'm sorry but that does point towards something physical, be it a slight back leg stiffness, tight muscle, teeth, saddle issue or one of the million other things that can go wrong and cause a drop in performance. There's not a quick fix though, and if that's what you're hoping to find from posting here you'll be disappointed.
 
TFFT!

did anyone suggest getting a lesson to see what they think too, eyes on the floor might help as well as my previous suggestion.
 
Possum said:
Not quite sure why I'm bothering to reply to such an abusive poster, but once more on the offchance that you are a reasonable person with a bad case of foot in mouth disease...
.
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I can assure you I am not being abusive but my lack of patience and increasing frustration has come from two years of being verbally abused by some of the people on here, on a constant basis and I have been told everything from having my horse pts to retired to getting a new vet as my old ones clearly don't know what they are doing (they are one of the finest vets in the Warwickshire area).

It gets a bit wearing sometimes. Thanks for your suggestion Possum. I know its not a physical issue as he is not the type to get 'wound up' jumping so therefore there is no adrenalin rush. In between altering a course /waiting for the next class at a show my horse is practically falling asleep at the trailer, (been there done it) so this scenario is not correct.

It might be that the canter is more active during a jumping session. I will have a go at the suggestions you have made and see if I notice any difference. Last time I schooled him he did one on the right rein and two on the left rein on the flat and he is getting stronger (I've been working him regularly in the school for approx three days a week for five weeks now). I've lost a stone and a quarter in weight so I am fitter in myself and finding it easier to canter as my fitness has increased so I have done a lot of canter work with him recently and he is becoming fitter in himself.

I do quite a few transitions when I ride but only ever ride for 30 mins tops when I school so I am only really active for about twenty of those after warm up/cool down is taken into account.
 
ester said:
TFFT!

did anyone suggest getting a lesson to see what they think too, eyes on the floor might help as well as my previous suggestion.
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I will be having lessons in August when the instructor I have asked to teach me returns from holiday. I am really looking forward to it as I have never had regular lessons from anyone before having always preferred to compete and just get on with it. Probably only had about a dozen lessons in as many years.

It will be useful to know where I am going wrong and get some constructive criticism. He will also ride my horse for me if I ask him to.
 
I don't think anyone has verbally abused you, they would have been banned.

I think they have mostly suggested they wouldn't be doing the same as you were.
 
applecart14 said:
He can do changes on the flat as I explained twice, so its nothing to do with the 'adrenalin' of jumping. As for 'rushing' he is 18 years of age?? He can do walk to canter, canter to walk, counter canter, and simple changes. Always has been able to. We've done elementary together.
It could be the quality of the canter and most probably me when it comes down to it not sitting straight maybe, or doing dressage in a GP saddle (as I have alwasy done up to elementary by the way). But its not because he is in pain, that is laughable. I'm not pressuring him into a party piece either..... weird your outlook on things...... but still. At least your reply was more sensible than the others... by a slim margin.

Do you know what I really can't be bothered to come on this forum again. I've been on about three times in the last few weeks, but I find the company tedious and the replies nonsensical, predictable and very inaccurate.

Thanks for giving me 'permission' to ride my horse Samsbilly. I asked for a sensible solution to a sensible question, not people who like to think they are vets with no knowledge of my horse giving their opinions about trash. Or those that like to think they are more qualified than my vets, plenty of those on here who think I should change my vet, have my horse put to sleep, retire him and everything in between.

Like I say, we all have a hoot anyway. Those that know Bailey find it very funny.
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Slightly rude reply to a genuine answer. Hardly surprising that you aren't getting offered any other answers.
 
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