Flying change inconsistency

Why do you only school for 30 mins? Is that 5 mins warm up, 20 mins schooling then 5 mins cool down? Particularly when working specifically on something that's been a bit sticky I'd say I spend at least 15/20 mins getting them really relaxed, supple, through and attentive before thinking about picking them up properly and asking for real work - you might just be asking a bit quick...

And I'm sorry, but saying that my original reply was 'more sensible than the others by a slim margin' is offensive and uncalled for, though admittedly far less offensive than you have been to others who have replied. I have no interest at all in the issues you have with people from your other threads, but with maybe one exception the only person dealing out insults on this thread is you, and you've been downright rude to everyone who made a suggestion. I hope that you manage to sort things out with your horse, but you really do need to wind your neck in else you roundly deserve any backlash you get.
 
I think the best reply I can give after reading this 'interesting' thread is that most horses have a better rein, my horse is much stronger on the left so can do changes better left to right than right to left. A simple pole on the ground may help with the issue and try not to make it an issue, if he does it once and does it well, give him lots of pats and finish the exercise, move onto something else. There are lots of different 'lateral' exercises you can do to help a horse's flexibility which may improve his willingness and ability to do what you are asking. I'm purposely not commenting on the horse's physical health as I don't know him and certainly wouldn't cast judgement on a horse I have never seen.
 
Possum said:
Why do you only school for 30 mins? Is that 5 mins warm up, 20 mins schooling then 5 mins cool down? Particularly when working specifically on something that's been a bit sticky I'd say I spend at least 15/20 mins getting them really relaxed, supple, through and attentive before thinking about picking them up properly and asking for real work - you might just be asking a bit quick...
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Agree with this. My horse has no pre-existing issues, is fit, healthy and strong, currently competing Medium. He does 10 mins walk on a loose rein, followed by at least 10 mins of stretch in trot and canter (underpowered), then 5 or so mins of lateral work in walk (exercises similar to this: http://horsetalk.co.nz/2015/02/04/help-horse-kissing-spine-goodbye/). So that is 20-25 mins of work before we even start "proper" trot/canter in a working outline. There is then a further warm-up period of lateral work etc. before we move on to collection work and flying changes. At the end he does trot stretch 5-10 mins followed by at least 10 mins walking off.

Even the oldie that I ride at the weekend does more than 30 mins, by the time that he has done his walk warmup and cool down which takes 20 mins alone.
 
Fuzzypuff said:
Agree with this. My horse has no pre-existing issues, is fit, healthy and strong, currently competing Medium. He does 10 mins walk on a loose rein, followed by at least 10 mins of stretch in trot and canter (underpowered), then 5 or so mins of lateral work in walk (exercises similar to this: http://horsetalk.co.nz/2015/02/04/help-horse-kissing-spine-goodbye/). So that is 20-25 mins of work before we even start "proper" trot/canter in a working outline. There is then a further warm-up period of lateral work etc. before we move on to collection work and flying changes. At the end he does trot stretch 5-10 mins followed by at least 10 mins walking off.

Even the oldie that I ride at the weekend does more than 30 mins, by the time that he has done his walk warmup and cool down which takes 20 mins alone.
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If I rode him for more than 30 mins I would get slated. If I ride him for less than 30 mins I get slated. If I ride him at all I get slated. If I don't ride him at all I get slated. If I get the vet out I get slated. If I don't get the vet out I get slated. If I comment on here about his problems I get told I'm cruel. If I don't post on here about his problems I am accused of being misleading.

In essence I can't really win no matter what i do or say. You say I am being rude but ask yourself this. If you were told to have your horse pts or retired or to change your vets by people that have never met you or the horse would YOU really react any differently?

If you answer that honestly you wont be acting far differently from me. Those that can't answer this question honestly should really stop sitting in judgement.

The horse always does what I want him to do. When he doesn't I spend longer working on any 'problem' areas but this is very rare. He always tries hard and enjoys his sessions, mainly because I don't go over the same thing again and again and again. I spend 20 mins building a grid and then go over it about four times. There is no need to keep doing the same thing over and over. I find I get better work out of him this way.
 
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Folks I find my enjoyment of the forum is enhanced by ignoring OP 's threads I recommend it as a course of action ,she can then post her questions and provide the answers then everyone's happy.
 
applecart14 said:
In essence I can't really win no matter what i do or say. You say I am being rude but ask yourself this. If you were told to have your horse pts or retired or to change your vets by people that have never met you or the horse would YOU really react any differently?

If you answer that honestly you wont be acting far differently from me. Those that can't answer this question honestly should really stop sitting in judgement.

.
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Well I can honestly hand on heart say I would never react like you do. I would never dream of being so rude or aggressive, even if I felt aggrieved !
 
I would think >30 mins more normal and probably better for him, especially when asking him to do more complicated moves I don't think anyone has ever suggested a slating if he were doing more than 30 minutes - thought the conversations I do remember off hand he had recently been lame again and was only going round the edge of the arena for x minutes anyway. But more than in the round they would do less with him overall IF he were theirs.

Frank is 22 and a bit wonky on one side and is schooled once a week. He does about 20 minutes warm up on a longer rein before I ask for any sideways or proper up togetherness. I feel that one good session a week is better for him because I can then expect him to work his well warmed muscles properly to keep him as strong and supple as possible but that once a week suffices (he might get one lunge too), the other 4 days he hacks as far as I have time for as a great believer in straight lines on non-school surfaces.

GS I do find it difficult when I think others might think that after his injuries/issues the rehab and subsequent work this horse now does is standard/usual/the best plan for their longevity. I maybe need some tips ;).
 
The only thing I would say is that if you don't want people to comment because they don't know the horse, have never seen the horse and have never met you, then why on earth are you asking for advice on the forum? By its very nature you are seeking advice from unknown people.

If you are happy with your vet and your local trainers/advisers, then I would steer well clear of the forum and ask the people on the ground who know you and the horse.
 
Slightly off topic but reading some of these posts, am I the only one that schools for 30-40 minutes without a 20 minute warm up in walk & can do good clean changes but not counter canter or simple change?? We can shoulder in/leg yield & have the beginnings of half pass as my SJ coach is very hot on the flat work & being able to manoeuvre the horse & having it bendy & supple. We do mainly show jump, with the odd combined training for a bit of variety so not competitive dressage at a high level, achieving 70%+ at prelim. We had a "proper" dressage lesson recently with a GP rider & she was complimentary about my mare's way of going & said the changes would get a 7 or 8 in a test, so just my musings really but does all the other stuff have to be done? If the OP wants to ride changes but can't do counter canter, does it matter?
 
merlinsquest said:
Slightly off topic but reading some of these posts, am I the only one that schools for 30-40 minutes without a 20 minute warm up in walk & can do good clean changes but not counter canter or simple change?? We can shoulder in/leg yield & have the beginnings of half pass as my SJ coach is very hot on the flat work & being able to manoeuvre the horse & having it bendy & supple. We do mainly show jump, with the odd combined training for a bit of variety so not competitive dressage at a high level, achieving 70%+ at prelim. We had a "proper" dressage lesson recently with a GP rider & she was complimentary about my mare's way of going & said the changes would get a 7 or 8 in a test, so just my musings really but does all the other stuff have to be done? If the OP wants to ride changes but can't do counter canter, does it matter?
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It is interesting, isn't it? Just my opinion, but I think so much depends on your horse's natural way of going, I had a sec D that thought beautiful canter pirouettes and passage were a doddle, but really struggled to get his head round some of the other lateral work. Equally I've ridden horses that would ping in changes at the drop of a hat. If they're easy for your horse then I agree you don't need a lot of the rigmarole first, but for one who finds it more difficult or is just learning then you need to do a lot more set up :).
 
Yes, fair point though I do think that dressage riders make the changes more kind of mystical & difficult whereas show jumpers just teach them as a matter of course. However we don't need to do them precisely at a marker just so long as they change. My mare learned at 5, I just cantered across the diagonal, gave the aids & tapped the hind leg with a schooling whip & she quickly learned to step through & change, sometimes a bit wildly but they are now balanced & true. I have noticed too that we do a kind of light seat thing in the change unlike dressage riders, so interesting all the different ways & means. A dressage friend once rode her when I was working, she rang me in hysterics saying that the mare had "refused" to go for a hack, obviously very cross then at not wandering along on the buckle, so she rode in the school, then couldn't find the canter button which when located was from the inside leg & a light seat, she then kept getting either a) walk to canter & no trot or b) random flying changes. She said she was racing round the school in trot going "& canteeeerrr" we still laugh about it now...
 
I only do because mine is old(ish) -22 and a bit stiff on one side, oh and welsh - so if you ask too early you tend to just get tense and no forwardsness. His auto reaction to sideways is to slow down so you need to get him swinging a bit first if that makes sense. IIRC the OPs horse is not 'young' either.
Frank doesn't know changes as he didn't start doing proper schooling until quite late in life having mostly been a pony club jumper and we purposely didn't teach them as we thought we might not ever get counter canter again :D. We have a skip over some poles sometimes though because he finds that rather jolly :D.
 
I find this interesting - again from a jumpers perspective :) My mare will change until the cows come home but ask her to move sideways off your leg and we get the ultimate hissy fit! HOWEVER - ask her to change from a deep seat, at a specific marker, and to stay truly round in self carraige - nope! She will change but we have a higher head carriage for jumping, and then she likes to go for a little run when she's changed :)

It really is so different with dressage - accuracy is everything. As I am learning slowly but not so surely as I attempt to venture into the dressage space!
 
My 5yr old HW very slightly croup high cob will offer changes if hes jumping. Hes just been away for schooling and we all agreed that he wasnt strong enough for much if any work to be done on the canter. Hes been schooled in walk and trot, hacked out and done some jumping to get his brain thinking forward. He is completely sound and the most even and straight horse my osteo has ever seen. He doesnt, and wont, canter in the school for a few months. While he could, it wont be asked of him.

My other horse, well not mine as hes been gifted to his loaner, but who by all accounts is sounder than yours is a happy hack. He does the odd lesson in the school with his new mum, and occasionally pops a small cross pole. Hes only ever asked for less than he can do. I cant imagine a scenario where he would be asked to work outside of his comfort zone

Yours has hind limb problems. The vet says hes fine, and thats great! :) But maybe now is the time to keep him well within his comfort zone? You both like to jump, so maybe hacking to keep him fit and supple and then the odd SJing competition? Asking your average RC allrounder to do clean flying changes is a big ask, even for a young fit horse! In fact for most leisure horses. I cant think of many local level horses who can do a clean change. Its such a big ask of them to take the weight back and produce a good enough quality canter to do it, that most RC riders wouldnt know or be able to do it, so its no reflection on you :)
 
Swirlymurphy said:
The only thing I would say is that if you don't want people to comment because they don't know the horse, have never seen the horse and have never met you, then why on earth are you asking for advice on the forum? By its very nature you are seeking advice from unknown people.

If you are happy with your vet and your local trainers/advisers, then I would steer well clear of the forum and ask the people on the ground who know you and the horse.
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Agree 100%.
 
ester said:
- thought the conversations I do remember off hand he had recently been lame again and was only going round the edge of the arena for x minutes anyway. But more than in the round they would do less with him overall IF he were theirs.

;).
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Incorrect, Ester the horse has been back in full work for a number of weeks now after I took him to the vet when he struck his leg into the other leg in the field and it swelled and was hot. I assumed an infection but I was told a couple of days off and he would be okay and antibiotics weren't needed.

Was thinking about the comment someone put on here yesterday about the horse being able to perform flying changes whilst the jumps are out in the menage because the adrenalin is going through him so he's not in pain!! Last night my partner came up and gave me a hand and built a little course for me, the horse was jumping really well. As we stood waiting for him to put the jumps up I looked at Bailey and laughed. His bottom lip was drooping and he was practically asleep where he stood. I said to my boyfriend "you can see the adrenalin is pumping through him".

Like I say I don't care what you think about the way I look after my horse. I only answer to two people, that of my yard owner and my vet in respect of my horse. Those are the two people who I have the most amount of respect for and who know my horse as well as I do. But i just wanted some tips about flying changes.

And like I have said before I came on here to ask a simple question about what I may possibly be doing wrong that my horse won't change somedays but does others. It could be a hundred and one things but everyone immediately jumps down my throat and says its because the horse is in pain. If Bailey was in pain he wouldn't jump, believe me he would be knocking them down, running out or refusing the jumps. I know my horse and I know what he does when he has a physcial problem previously and how he acts. The horse is fit, healthy and happy in his work. He wouldn't be forward going with his ears pricked and interested in life if he was in pain, nor would he be careering around the field when he's turned out - horses in pain move minimally and look down and depressed and lack lustre. I didn't expect to be linched on here yet again. I must lower my expectations in future as sadly I should have known better......

Frankie cob, thanks for your comments. I hack out about three to four times a week and do a fair bit of hill work, and school one day. I competed last approx a month ago in jumping and did one class. I plan to go tomorrow and hire the school at my local riding club, and will go for a long hack Sunday.
 
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you show a total lack of understanding for how adrenalin works.

yes it can be that fired up, flight response,mode but equallly:

the horse knows he used to enjoy jumping, his will to want to jump and enjoy it means the adrenalin released from excitement at wanting to do it (for you) blocks the pain response.

flatwork he clearly finds a bit so/so and thus the pain is in the fore front of his mind.

in the same way my knee is absolute agony at the moment and just walking round the office it drives me mad, but will it stop me riding, no it wont.

unfortunately horses cant make the same choice to carry on as they dont understand the concept of the continued damage it will do and the repercussions of that.

you need to be very clear in not putting human understanding on to their actions(that are based on a far more simple mind).

the horse has had many injuries. is getting older. all the signs add up to a pain response.

you have a duty of care to protect him from himself, just because he CAN do it, the question really is should he.................................
 
applecart14 said:
Incorrect, Ester the horse has been back in full work for a number of weeks now after I took him to the vet when he struck his leg into the other leg in the field and it swelled and was hot. I assumed an infection but I was told a couple of days off and he would be okay and antibiotics weren't needed.
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I'm not incorrect, If you read my sentence properly I was talking about a conversation I remember about people supposedly having a go at you/you say told you >30 mins was too much, I never said how long ago that was, just that it was at a time when he had been lame recently so was not in full work.

And PS I completely agree with you re. adrenalin, I was amused how much more forwards and bouncy F was when we were showing in the workers ring the other weekend compared to a flat ring, even when not doing the jumps.
 
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Prince33Sp4rkle said:
you show a total lack of understanding for how adrenalin works.

yes it can be that fired up, flight response,mode but equallly:

the horse knows he used to enjoy jumping, his will to want to jump and enjoy it means the adrenalin released from excitement at wanting to do it (for you) blocks the pain response.

flatwork he clearly finds a bit so/so and thus the pain is in the fore front of his mind.

in the same way my knee is absolute agony at the moment and just walking round the office it drives me mad, but will it stop me riding, no it wont.

unfortunately horses cant make the same choice to carry on as they dont understand the concept of the continued damage it will do and the repercussions of that.

you need to be very clear in not putting human understanding on to their actions(that are based on a far more simple mind).

the horse has had many injuries. is getting older. all the signs add up to a pain response.

you have a duty of care to protect him from himself, just because he CAN do it, the question really is should he.................................
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Princess Sparkle you would argue with yourself in an empty room.

Isn't it true what I've heard that allegedly all the horses in your possession having rearing issues??

And I don't remember you complaining when you took money off me once for a lesson on my poor crippled pony :)

I'm not going to persist with this nonsense anymore, because this is just what it is and I have more important things to do with my time.
 
applecart14 said:
Like I say I don't care what you think about the way I look after my horse. I only answer to two people, that of my yard owner and my vet in respect of my horse. Those are the two people who I have the most amount of respect for and who know my horse as well as I do. But i just wanted some tips about flying changes.
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I don't know you and I have only once I think responded to one of your threads (this one), but I find this really sad. I can't comment on whether your hrose is/isn't sound or in pain however I don't think valuing the opinion of 2 people on your horse is doing you or your horse any favours. People do get it wrong, that is part of being human, and personally I think the best way is to keep an open mind and keep questioning. Like I said in my previous post, my horse has no pre-existing issues, however any time we stumble upon issues in his work, or he isn't quite like himself, I take the time to ask myself what could be causing it - could he be feeling unwell in some way, is his diet not right, does he need a change in management etc? This way I feel I am always doing the best for my horse. Of course I am not going to take the opinions of lots of people who have never met my horse over my vet, however I can still learn a lot from others and take on board their suggestions and investigate them, rather than just shouting at everyone for being idiots.

There are lots of possible reasons as to why your horse might be finding flying changes difficult in this context, and it's your job to tick them off to find out why it is happening so you can solve the problem.

Also, I am not saying your horse is lame, but in many horses lameness starts off as a small performance issue in one area of the horse's work before getting worse and showing as obvious lameness. Personally if I were you I would be double-checking I am doing everything correctly on the physical/management front to make sure I had covered all bases before moving on to treating it as a schooling issue.
 
applecart14 said:
Princess Sparkle you would argue with yourself in an empty room.

Isn't it true what I've heard that allegedly all the horses in your possession having rearing issues??

And I don't remember you complaining when you took money off me once for a lesson on my poor crippled pony :)

I'm not going to persist with this nonsense anymore, because this is just what it is and I have more important things to do with my time.
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i know you, by name and sight but dont recall teaching you. i did teach many people on that yard but not you-you are mistaken.

your memory also fails you on other points-Pea(RIP) did indeed rear for england, as he had done since a 2yo on the race yard. However he had every test,scan,x ray available, some repeated twice or even 3 times and showed no signs of injury or pain (as painkillers also had no impact on him). so in no way comparable to Bailey.

The only other horses we have on the yard are livery pony(doesnt rear) Bruce (never reared in his life with us-15years) Fig(never reared) and Goofy(too soon at 3yo to say never rears but hasnt so far).


so perhaps you need to check a few things as you seem very confused :)
 
I was struggling to imagine bruce bothering to get in the air ;) :D, or if he did he would look at himself and think gosh how rude!
 
Fuzzypuff said:
in many horses lameness starts off as a small performance issue in one area of the horse's work before getting worse and showing as obvious lameness. Personally if I were you I would be double-checking I am doing everything correctly on the physical/management front to make sure I had covered all bases before moving on to treating it as a schooling issue.
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I completely agree with this . . . horses tell us they can't cope in so many subtle ways and too often we miss the early signs because they are so subtle. I just recently retired my beloved boy due to back problems - he became so uncomfortable under saddle with a rider on top that it was blatantly obvious - and at first it seemed as though it had happened pretty much overnight . . . but when I look back over the past six/seven months, there were tiny little niggling signs there that all was not well . . . really tiny . . . just little moments of resistance which in a quirky, opinionated, tricky horse like him were all too easy to pass off as behavioural. I wish I'd picked his whispers up before he had to shout . . . and I'll do my very best to make sure the remainder of his life is as comfy as I can make it.

P
 
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The trouble is FuzzyPuff, OP has posted in detail on many many occasions about her horses medical history, of which much is lameness related, so forum members do feel they have a good understanding of his history, despite OP’s claims that we don’t know anything about him. We know what she tells us. Coupled with that, the horse is in his late teens and OP does not seem to have changed her management of this horse to take into account his age and physical condition. Even if he is sound now, she seems oblivious of the lasting damage these injuries have likely had on him and continues, it would appear, to work him as if he were a much younger horse without any previous issues. Again, this is based on what she tells us she does with him, not random assumptions. She posts and then doesn’t like the responses she gets because they clearly don’t fit in with what she wants to hear. When questions are raised, her immediate response is to start ‘shouting’, calling people names (we’ve been called all sorts, it’s quite comical really) and now throwing accusations around, as directed at Prince33Sp4rkle.

I am sure some people have suggested she put her horse to sleep in the past and clearly this isn’t what OP wants to hear or do (understandably) and most likely not what her vet has suggested either but for most of us who have commented, its simply to say why don’t you give the horse a quieter life now, not retirement, just slow down a bit. OP’s desire to go out jumping, long fun rides, dressage etc etc seems to override the need to revaluate her horses management.

I don’t doubt she loves her horse very very much and has spent much money to treat his various ailments but she continues to post about his problems and her inflammatory behaviour on this forum is not welcomed by most of us. Its bad enough that she ‘shouts’ at people, like me, who have commented before, but she was attacking Possum for her response, which as far as I could tell, was made without any previous knowledge of the horses issues, yet she got a lambasting. This sort of behaviour does nothing to endear her to the rest of the forum, who in most part, having been willing to make perfectly reasonable suggestions. I guess OP will alienate herself from most people over time, in real life and here, if she continues in this way.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
However he had every test,scan,x ray available, some repeated twice or even 3 times and showed no signs of injury or pain (as painkillers also had no impact on him). so in no way comparable to Bailey.

QUOTE]

Not sure what you mean by 'in no way comparable to Bailey'. I've had about £12K spent on Bailey over the years, mainly with colics and his spavin treatment which started with numerous xrays, joint injections, went on to Tildren, and ended at very sucessfully at ethanol fusion (with more xrays). And at any time I feel he needs the vet he has one and more often at not it isn't even necessary (like the last injury that when he struck into himself in the field) and the vet wasn't even necessary (as it turned out). So not sure why you don't think my horse hasn't had the best veterinary attention throughout the eleven years I've had him. He has a farrier every five weeks, a physio twice a year (more if necessary) dentist every ten months, and saddle fitter every year. He is ridden for approx 5-6 hours a week, most often less than this recently due to commitments outside the yard. He is never pushed, is bandaged before schooling/jumping, ice vibed before riding and after schooling and is constantly under scrutiny for lumps/bumps/heat/any discomfort. he goes jumping about once in a blue moon and as for 'long fun rides' I don't think that ten or twelve miles is long to a horse. I've not been on one so far this year but I'm planning on doing a 12 mile in the next couple of weeks (maybe the RSPCA should be notified for the loooooong distance we are planning to walk!!) Dressage he's done two comps in about six weeks. Last time he jumped was about four weeks ago. Lets get it into perspective.

Oh and the vet has given him the all clear a while ago to resume jumping/dressage - SO DO YOU REQUIRE IT WRITTEN IN BLOOD OR SOMETHING AND SENT TO YOU RECORDED DELIVERY?

Just because people on here don't post about their horses ailments and injuries doesn't mean they don't have them, just remember that. There are horses that I see on a regular basis that are unsound, clearly uncomfortable, refusing fences, not going forward with their rider, looking miserable as sin. I know that doesn't make it right, but it happens all the time. My horse is not one of these and never has been for that matter.

And I got my information off someone else about your rearing horses. And yes you did teach me, I have a photo of you in the background when you did a clinic at ours and you can quite clearly see Bailey and me.

I can assure you there is no confusion.

I really love my hrose with all my might and really get upset and annoyed at peoples sad comments on this forum. But then that's what some people on this forum seem to enjoy.

I'm not commenting on these ignorant and nasty replies anymore. I actually have a LIFE!!! My O/H actually suggested taking a video last night as he looked so well and posting it on here, but I know if you look really, really, really closesly there is bound to be something you can find, the tiniest bit of stiffness maybe that nobody else other than the vultures on this forum would notice. So I know I will get 'picked apart' for that, that is why I don't bother doing this. I also don't feel why I have to justify myself to a load of nasty posters.
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