Flying changes, what next please?

ycbm

ycbm

Overwhelmed
Joined
30 January 2015
Messages
61,638
Visit site
Obvious answer is get a trainer :) I've tried but they all want to do easy stuff so the lesson is 'a success' instead of realising that progression isn't always pretty. Previous trainer got me to three time tempis (then I lost the horse) but she's had a baby and is very unreliable to get hold of and has moved too far away.

So, a non-typical (6 year old) horse for dressage is doing really well. He has walk to canter in both directions, bang on every time. His simple changes are nailed in both directions. He will change through one walk stride on his better canter to worser canter change. He changes late behind in flying change worser canter to better canter.

He does 'changes' maybe once a week and it's about twelve weeks since we started asking for this with any seriousness. He doesn't panic, flap, buck, he just gets it late. He takes the aid on a moderate change of bend, not what I call a 'showjumper' big change of bend and weight. I other words I'm asking for it not throwing him into it.

So what do I do now?

Carry on with what I'm doing (which is getting better and better) in the expectation that eventually he will change clean?

Or something else?

All suggestions gratefully received.
 
One thing to try is to go onto the diagonal in a slight shoulder in position then push the quarters across into a travers type positioning ( but with incorrect flexion ) then ask for the change of flexion and the change .
 
I would remember that he is only 6 and that is very young to be doing proper dressage changes. Leave them alone, work on the quality of the canter over time to give him the strength he needs to change correctly and come back to them next year. There is no rush! Take it slowly if you want him to last. There is probably a reason dressage trainers want to work on the basics first. My horse was always late behind initially but as he has got stronger and straighter and more relaxed in the changes they are now normally clean.
 
Try thinking very forwards into it, and perhaps a little tap on the rump just before you ask to try and encourage that correct hind to step under.
 
I'm afraid the best answer is get a trainer! You really need experienced eyes on the ground with changes, I would be wary of continuing to get late changes as they can very quickly become a habit. Give the changes a rest, improve the quality of the canter and the transitions, and when you ask again, ask in a different way to get a clean change. But the best thing you can do is find an experienced trainer.
 
Goldenstar said:
One thing to try is to go onto the diagonal in a slight shoulder in position then push the quarters across into a travers type positioning ( with incorrect flexion ) then ask for the change of flexion and the change .
Click to expand...

I'm in a mucking fuddle trying to work out what to put where GS :D

Turn onto diagonal in slight shoulder in, ok. If I push quarters across have I got half pass then? Cos that sounds like how I get half pass (which he also has pretty well nailed for his age, he's a short, nimble little fellow ). So then I change the flexion and ask for the change?
 
Last edited:
matt_m said:
Try thinking very forwards into it, and perhaps a little tap on the rump just before you ask to try and encourage that correct hind to step under.
Click to expand...

I'm only just, after two years, able to touch him with a whip without him shooting forwards. I broke him, so I have no idea how he got so whip shy because it wasn't with me. In another few weeks I might be able to try this, thanks.
 
star said:
I would remember that he is only 6 and that is very young to be doing proper dressage changes. Leave them alone, work on the quality of the canter over time to give him the strength he needs to change correctly and come back to them next year. There is no rush! Take it slowly if you want him to last. There is probably a reason dressage trainers want to work on the basics first. My horse was always late behind initially but as he has got stronger and straighter and more relaxed in the changes they are now normally clean.
Click to expand...

This. Think he is too young to be doing changes really. Take it back to basics and get him really strong and flexible. He is getting it late because he isn't strong enough.
 
ycbm said:
I'm in a mucking fuddle trying to work out what to put where GS :D

Turn onto diagonal in slight shoulder in, ok. If I push quarters across have I got half pass then? Cos that sounds like how I get half pass (which he also has pretty well nailed for his age, he's a short, nimble little fellow ). So then I change the flexion and ask for the change?
Click to expand...

You have the quarters in a half passish postion but with the outside flexion .
Then you ask for the change .
They will often hop up when they try the change which is the first step to them getting it right .
It's not classical training and I am not going to say with trainer showed me this trick but it's a way to help horses who are later behind .
 
rachk89 said:
This. Think he is too young to be doing changes really. Take it back to basics and get him really strong and flexible. He is getting it late because he isn't strong enough.
Click to expand...

Thanks very much for the advice but you haven't met him :) He's having fun and so am I. He hasn't read the rule book that says he's too young for flying changes, neither has he read the one that says he should be able to do some medium trot by now. We progress what he finds easy and we go slowly on what he finds difficult. He's a short, nimble, balanced, strong boy who really enjoys his work.
 
Goldenstar said:
You have the quarters in a half passish postion but with the outside flexion .
Then you ask for the change .
They will often hop up when they try the change which is the first step to them getting it right .
It's not classical training and I am not going to say with trainer showed me this trick but it's a way to help horses who are later behind .
Click to expand...

OK I've got it. Thanks for that. I don't mind if it's classical or not, all that matters is if it helps :)
 
ycbm said:
Thanks very much for the advice but you haven't met him :) He's having fun and so am I. He hasn't read the rule book that says he's too young for flying changes, neither has he read the one that says he should be able to do some medium trot by now. We progress what he finds easy and we go slowly on what he finds difficult. He's a short, nimble, balanced, strong boy who really enjoys his work.
Click to expand...

Is he finding it easy though? If he doesn't easily change behind then he might be finding it more difficult than you think
 
Wheels said:
Is he finding it easy though? If he doesn't easily change behind then he might be finding it more difficult than you think
Click to expand...

Excuse me if I an insulting your experience, but you do realise that most horses don't just do flying changes correctly right from the start of training them to do them, do you? He's happy, so am I. Thanks for your help.
 
you asked for advice and opinions and you got them :-S whether you like them or not is not my problem!
 
Well I think, actually for a lot of horses correctly prepared they do their changes correctly more often than not even before they are wholly established not late behind all the time.
 
6yrs old is not necessarily too young, at 6 some horses are ready, some horses are not, impossible to say without knowing the individual horse. This is why I say you need experienced eyes on the ground, the late behind changes maybe because the horse isnt ready, but equally it may be due to the positioning of the horse, timing of the riders aids etc....
 
ester said:
Well I think, actually for a lot of horses correctly prepared they do their changes correctly more often than not even before they are wholly established not late behind all the time.
Click to expand...

I agree. A lot do. But nowhere near all. There's nothing unusual about what my boy is doing right now, in fact it's a lot less trouble than my horse that did three time tempis had to start with, under the supervision of a GP trainer. But I didn't want to carry on if people could suggest things that might help him. Two people have, and I can try one and see what happens.

GS, I'll let you know :)
 
Last edited:
daffy44 said:
6yrs old is not necessarily too young, at 6 some horses are ready, some horses are not, impossible to say without knowing the individual horse. This is why I say you need experienced eyes on the ground, the late behind changes maybe because the horse isnt ready, but equally it may be due to the positioning of the horse, timing of the riders aids etc....
Click to expand...


I completely agree, the trouble is where to find one you like and trust, isn't it? Last one I tried spent half my lesson on her mobile phone. One before that stuck a transmitter in my ear which didn't let me talk to her and proceeded to instruct me to do things I knew the horse had an issue with and wouldn't let me tell her why. How dare people marry, move away and have babies :D
 
I appreciate that ycbm, it can be really hard to find a trainer you like and trust, but please keep trying, its worth it, i promise! See if you ca go and watch friends lessons, local clinics etc until you find a trainer you want to try with. Could you call your last trainer and see if she recommends someone?
 
Goldenstar said:
You have the quarters inc a half passish postion but with the outside flexion .
Then you ask for the change .
They will often hop up when they try the change which is the first step to them getting it right .
It's not classical training and I am not going to say with trainer showed me this trick but it's a way to help horses who are later behind .
Click to expand...


It works!

Late first time, probably because I messed up bringing his shoulders straight

Correct second time and very easy to judge the timing.

Anticipated third time and did a real beauty with a proper skip, before I asked for it.

And since he has a problem with anticipation, we stopped there and I turned him out. But I think they are going to be seriously nice :)



Thanks GS! I hope your poor boy will be back to work as soon as possible.
 
Goldenstar said:
Your welcome .
You can set it up and then ride out of it to help with anticipation .
Click to expand...

An excellent example of why this forum is so useful, helpful and full of experienced people who, through years of experience, training and life skills, are able to pass on knowledge.

I am a great believer in training the horse correctly, but all horses are individuals and need tailored training systems, the OP's horse is obviously very intelligent, able and wanting to learn. As long as he is happy and not stressed by his training why shouldn't he being doing changes. There is one thing for sure, if a clever horse is not channelled the right way he will soon use his intelligence against you. A naughty clever horse is not desirable in any form.
 
Thanks AA. As you say, the best of the forum to give me the key we needed.

I did have a wry smile when people told me he was too young. When he did the first good one I could hear his little brain say 'well THAT's how I do it' and then he couldn't wait to do another, he was so chuffed with himself.

I have two six year olds. This one is strong, balanced and level headed.

The other is a worrier, weaker, and lacks both confidence and natural balance. I don't ask more of him in schooling than I would of a good four year old, and in canter not even that. In time, he will be better, I think, than the other, but he's taking his time about it :)

They certainly aren't all the same.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top