Foal Colour?!

S

Sessle

Well-Known Member
Joined
24 October 2008
Messages
1,015
Visit site
So I'm thinking of breeding one of my neddies, she's an appaloosa X, so was thinking of putting her to a full appaloosa with spots (obviously confo/temp is more important, but ideally with spotties!) but when she was born she was black and coloured out to grey, so what are the chances.....if its possible to tell......of her foal colouring out from whatever colour it may be to grey? If its highly unlikely that her foal will be spotty then I'll include other handsome stallions in my search :) Any help appreciated as the coloured genes do confuse me :D

Thankies!
 
Hi. Is she actually a true grey? or is she appaloosa roan? If she is the one in your signature then she looks roan to me. Do you have any other pics and how old is she?
If you put her to a spotted appaloosa then you have a 50% chance of getting spots or spotted pattern. If she is a grey then also 50% chance of foal turning grey or 100% if she is homozygous grey. There is a grey test now available through animal genetics for £17.50 - i'm waiting for test results for one of my spotty foals out of a grey mare.
All purebred appaloosa stallions have to be vetted for breeding, this vetting is a five stage vetting including flexion tests on all four legs, the vet is appointed by the appaloosa society and cannot be one you know and also a member of the appaloosa comimitee has to be present for the vetting. Also from this year stallions have to be tested negative from PSSM and grey. This means that it is possible to breed spots and correct conformation!
 
She is probably a roan type, but as she was born black, and coloured out, someone told me something about that being due to a grey gene - however I freely admit to the gene colour stuff confusing me, so could have got this wrong! This is her last year, but she changes grey shades regularly, and does get little black spots on her back with changing seasons!! She has filled out alot now, and is more of a LW hunter type.
SDC10363.jpg

She's coming up to 6 years old now
That sounds great about the appy stallions :) May do that grey test first as if she's homozygous grey then I will widen my search for stallions!!
 
Also don't know if this has any relevance but I was just reading some of the stuff on that whitehorseproductions website, and it says a grey horse will have at least one grey parent, neither of my girls parents were grey, one was black, and one was a leopard appy - does that means she's not grey and not going to be homozygous grey???
 
Sessle said:
Also don't know if this has any relevance but I was just reading some of the stuff on that whitehorseproductions website, and it says a grey horse will have at least one grey parent, neither of my girls parents were grey, one was black, and one was a leopard appy - does that means she's not grey and not going to be homozygous grey???
Click to expand...


Yes that's correct as far as I know, a grey horse HAS to have a grey parent. So yours must be roan rather than grey :)
 
yes that is true Grey is a simple dominat that overrules if you like other colours, because it's a dominant it cannot be carried and one parent must have been grey. The problem comes with appaloosas that can with their "roan hide the fact for a while that they also have grey. But if your mare's appaloosa parent had spots and was of a resaonable age still with all it's spots it will not have been grey.

As to coat patterns, how long is that piece of string? Most other coat colours are “simples” in comparison but appaloosas, best guess!

Appaloosa genes are a special case and you cannot guarantee anything, it will depend on what genes the mare inherited from her appaloosa parent and which if any of those genes she passes on to her offspring AND what genes the stallion you chose has and what he puts forward and then which pattern wins the battle! She is likely to be just Appaloosa “roan” I prefer to call it varnish as there is already a Roan gene and this is nothing like it, it is more of a greying type process but does not normally affect the spots, only areas of coat colour and many of those, like on knees and hocks remains long after a lot of the coat has turned white. She will probably keep her dark ears and nose stripe for a long time.

I have uploaded a few pictures of the process onto my profile on here, but then got bored!

Varnish can be slow to act with horses well into their teens still having areas where the original coat colour is very apparent and others that by 2 or 3 are often incorrectly referred to as few spots (very nearly all white). From observations the rapid varnish is usually associated with horses from the snowcap (white blanket) range of patterns and is especially potent when two appaloosas are bred together. (Suggesting a dominant gene who’s affect is amplified when homozygous – 2 copies).

The problem is that horses with just Varnish or with a small snowcap including dribbles over their hips are poor colour producers themselves, but often when bred to another appaloosa with extensive white you get a majority of offspring that are extensive white, so in breeding an appaloosa to an appaloosa you can loose the spots alltogether. From my own observations the snowcap pattern appears to be dominant over leopard spotting in certain circumstances. I believe that at least the snowcap pattern gene/s will be located on or near the Kit gene sequence that holds the dominant whites (all white Thoroughbreds) and sabino (white markings) genes located so far.

A prolific true few spot (Born all white with a few spots of coat colour over the body) stallion that I have a good knowledge of tends to throw loud near leopards to solid mares, Leopards with numerous very small spots to leopard mares and extended snowcap patterns on mares of that pattern themselves. I have also seen a genuine born fewspot mare that when bred to spotted appaloosas produced two solid foals, yet when bred to a solid stallion produced a very loud leopard.

I bred two together two horses that were according to some researchers "homozygous" (supposedly if they have so much white on them they are said to have two copies of the so called LP gene) and got a foal born solid coated, her caracteristics were minimal with a tiny amount of mottled skin and one stripy hoof. She showed a few white hairs at foal moult but at two looks like a snowstorm and has extensive skin mottling (will try to remember to get some pics). I am sure she inherited no leopard spotting patterns at all and just has her mothers varnish gene which is what I was hoping to drop! (the mating was a performance and conformation driven one!)

This is why I never use the word Homozygous when referring to appaloosas, and will not until the genes are identified and tested for! I do think that there are appaloosas homozygous for certain patterns but that does not guarantee, because of the nature of the other accessory genes that go with the basic genes, that a coloured foal will result.

So you see it’s not simple, on the other end of the scale JANANI on here has a lovely dark bay/brown mare with no visible characteristics, bred to a TB stallion of a similar colour with I think no white markings himself and gets a crop out appaloosa in not just one mating!! So you see there are no guarantees, but good luck and it is fun not knowing what you will get!
 
Yup, her appaloosa father was total leopard, and had very prominent spots up until he passed away :( so i guess that rules out the grey gene!

I had a look at your varnishing process, the mare is very nice :)
I'll be happy if she keeps her dark features on her face forever, I love them :)

Hmmmm, I think I'm just gonna look for the best stallion I can find for her!! I would like a spotty appy, but as long as foalie is healthy and my girly is happy then thats all that matters! If I get spots it'll be a bonus :)

Thanks for all your help everyone! :D
 
That's the best way to go about it pick a nice stallion that ticks the boxes then firmly cross your fingers for nearly 11 months!!!

Thank you, yes she is a lovely mare with a wonderful disposition she is out of my TB by a fewspot working cow horse stallion and is typical of what he throws on solid mares so that way you almost always get the spots, but when I bred her to an extended snowcap stallion I got an extended snowcap foal with hardly any spots! They are never boring and change a bit every year, which is part of the fun!

Good luck and look forward to some pictures next year!
 
She looks similar in colour to the stallion we are standing this season. He is what is known as a blue marble roan appaloosa. We aren't experts on appy genetics but we really liked the look of him, good conformation and great temperament, the colour is a bonus!

He is young, only 4 this year, currently standing at about 15.2 but still has a little more maturing to do. He will be backed later this year, he registered with both appy societies, and has some cracking offspring already up in Scotland where he came from. We understand he is homozygous for appaloosa so should always throw appy offspring. Here is the link to his owners website with some of his offspring.

http://www.scotiastud.co.uk/progeny.html

Feel free to PM me for more info!
 
I love the mystery that can be spotty genes, you never can guess the coat pattern. My filly from last year is still changing colour and pattern so goodness knows how she will wind up! She was born a snow capped light bay from a dark bay mare (bay mum, black snowflake dad) and a chestnut leopard spot dad (fewspot mum, bay blanket spot dad) she moulted out to a steel grey blanket spot which looked stunning! Her winter coat was bay roan with the blanket spots and she is now moulting back to the grey but now has spots all over her body! Thank goodness for microchips as she is nothing like the picture or description in her pass port!! Lol!
You just never can tell what you'll get!
 
Fallenangel123 - ditto this, my girl looks like a totally different horse to the photo they put in her passport photo, seems a bit silly having it there really, I did ask if I could put an updated photo in, with vet signature etc, but they said thats not allowed!!

Foxfolly - he sounds lovely, unfortunately North Yorkshire is waaaaaay too far away from me though!

KarynK - I will try and remember to post some piccies if I find a stallion that I think is 'worthy' of my mare :D
Thanks for all your help!! :)
 
whirlwindhorses said:
All purebred appaloosa stallions have to be vetted for breeding, this vetting is a five stage vetting including flexion tests on all four legs, the vet is appointed by the appaloosa society and cannot be one you know and also a member of the appaloosa comimitee has to be present for the vetting. Also from this year stallions have to be tested negative from PSSM and grey. This means that it is possible to breed spots and correct conformation!
Click to expand...



Does this just apply to BAPS (british appaloosa society) or APHC-UK also? (Appaloosa horse club)

I know with APHC USA, that mine are registered with, then they dont have to have any vetting
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top