Foal colour?

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TT55

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This is my friend's lovely new foal. Was wondering what people's opinions were on what colour he is? Dam is coloured (bay tobiano? in the background of the pic) and sire is palomino. I think he's bay, but my friend thinks he's buckskin, which he could be in theory... What's the best way to tell the difference (other than wait and see:) )?

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TT55 said:
Not sure he has the genetics to be black? Don't have many photos as the weather was pretty foul today! He is 2 days old.
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Sire - chestnut with 2 cream genes
Dam - black with agouti gene (and tobiano) - assuming that is that she is standard bay, which i'm not 100% she is.

The black gene is dominant over chestnut gene so if the foal could, i think geneticaly be black - although i stand to be corrected :)

Although all that said, he does look bay, lol!
 
This might be helpful.

The brown horse will most often be born with an intense foal coat. This can include darker points and usually a darker topline, while the bay foal will generally have only black pasterns or may even lack black points completely. A bay foal will also have a much lighter coat without the darker coloration along the topline. The difference between a brown foal and a black foal is similar. A brown foal will be born with darker coloration along the topline while the black foal can be born looking anywhere from "mousey" to "brown" to solid black but will generally be a more uniform color.
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From colorgenetics.

If he was buckskin I would expect him to be lighter, but maybe someone who's bred buckskins will be able to shed more light on foal coat colours.
 
I find colour genetics fascinating :)

Unfortunately i don't have too much info on the foal's sire to hand, but i know he is a palomino Welsh D and think he is by this chap http://www.gwynfaes.co.uk/Culhwch.htm and out of a palomino mare.

I have messaged my friend to remind me of the dam's parentage.
 
Paint Me Proud said:
Sire - chestnut with 2 cream genes
Dam - black with agouti gene (and tobiano) - assuming that is that she is standard bay, which i'm not 100% she is.

The black gene is dominant over chestnut gene so if the foal could, i think geneticaly be black - although i stand to be corrected :)

Although all that said, he does look bay, lol!
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Sire only has one cream gene ;)
 
Faracat said:
This might be helpful.



From colorgenetics.

If he was buckskin I would expect him to be lighter, but maybe someone who's bred buckskins will be able to shed more light on foal coat colours.
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Thanks. Could he be chocolate buckskin?

I think he is a smidgin darker along his topline and has definite dark points. So could well be brown. Will have to investigate further when i see him next!
 
My friend has had two foals who were a very similar colour when born. Both ended up very dark brown/black.
 
Palomino is chestnut with one cream gene (two is cremello)... Usually represented as ee Cr/n and can be carrying any agouti alleles. Agouti is what determines if the horse will be black, bay or brown and 'hides' in chestnuts.

The dam is a tobiano (clearly the foal isn't) and genetically bay. Bay has to be A on the agouti allele but may also carry brown or black. The horse also has to have at least one dominant "extension" allele represented as E.

We know for sure that the foal also has E as it is black-based (black mane and tail are obvious). What we don't know is what agouti allele it inherited (the mother has at least one A for bay but could be carrying anything else and the father's are all masked). It could additionally carry a single cream gene from the father.

So possibilities for the foal are bay, brown, black, smokey black, buckskin and brownskin.

If you knew what other foals the mare has produced (if any) and same for the sire, it may be possible to narrow it down more.

As for what it LOOKS like the foal is, I'll leave that to everyone else!
 
Faracat said:
What do you mean by 'chocolate'? Brown buckskin? Sooty buckskin?
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Sooty or brown buckskin? Although looking at pics of foals of these colours, they are not as brown as this one.

Just trying to understand possibilities :) i still think he is bay or brown
 
I agree with faracat that mare is brown not bay tobiano.

Genetically a little bit different but I don't think it makes any difference to the possible foal outcomes.
 
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Barnacle said:
Palomino is chestnut with one cream gene (two is cremello)... Usually represented as ee Cr/n and can be carrying any agouti alleles. Agouti is what determines if the horse will be black, bay or brown and 'hides' in chestnuts.

The dam is a tobiano (clearly the foal isn't) and genetically bay. Bay has to be A on the agouti allele but may also carry brown or black. The horse also has to have at least one dominant "extension" allele represented as E.

We know for sure that the foal also has E as it is black-based (black mane and tail are obvious). What we don't know is what agouti allele it inherited (the mother has at least one A for bay but could be carrying anything else and the father's are all masked). It could additionally carry a single cream gene from the father.

So possibilities for the foal are bay, brown, black, smokey black, buckskin and brownskin.

If you knew what other foals the mare has produced (if any) and same for the sire, it may be possible to narrow it down more.

As for what it LOOKS like the foal is, I'll leave that to everyone else!
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Thanks for the interesting reply.

This is the mare's first foal. The sire has several palomino foals (one i have seen recently is a quite pale, cream colour). A quick google search also brings up golden buckskin and chestnut foals by him. Some of his progeny are listed as "black" but i haven't seen pics of those so not sure what they actually look like. Not sure if that helps narrow it down at all!
 
Well that he has produced black foals (if they are indeed black) does tell us he has at least one 'a' allele at the agouti locus. That doesn't change things much though as we don't know what the dam is hiding and can't say definitively what the other allele the sire has at the agouti locus is.
 
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