Foal registration advice please.

[caldera]

Hi, I've been lurking here for a while and feel it is time to ask you lovely people for your advice.

So my first question is.. How do you decide what stud book to register your foal with? Is this dictated by which stallion you use?

Thanks.

 

[Faberge]

Welcome.
It depends on eligibility for studbook - dictated largely by which studbooks parents are registered/licensed/graded etc with, but there are exceptions to this, and many studbooks offer various types of passport registrations - eg with the KWPN horses can be issued Foalbook, Register A or Register B papers...

Probably doesn't really answer your question but if you can be more spefific about the dam and the sire I can give better advice!

 

[caldera]

Thanks for your reply.

For example. I have a KWPN mare that is in foal to a KWPN registered stallion so I'm wondering if i should be registering the foal with this studbook. Is there a benefit to doing this over registering with Anglo European studbook.

If you have a KWPN mare but the stallion is registered with a different studbook would you normally register the foal with the studbook of the sire?

 

[puc]

Depends largely on the stallions licensing but given that the mare has a full pedigree (4 generation on both sides) then usually you can get papers from the stallions studbook of licensing.

ie. Sir Donnerhall is licensed and thigh branded oldenburg then approved for Hanover, Mecklenburg, Rhineland, South German Stud Books, Westphalia, Finland, France, Italy, Sweden so depending on each societies mare requirements (ie. who she is registered with) then in theory you could be eligable for paper for any of these stud books.

For registration for Hanoverian either the mare or stallion has to be thigh branded hanoverian, if the mare isn't then the stallion must be thigh branded and licensed hanoverian, so in that case if the mare was KWPN and she was bred to sir donnerhall the foal would not be eligeble for hanoverian papers even if she was graded into the stud book because sir donnerhall thigh branded. The foal would be eligable for Oldenburg papers as they are an open stud book (as long as the stallion is approved with the oldenburg society and is performance tested) and the mare has a 4 generation pedigree. The Kwpn would also take the foal on Register A and when it was graded into the stud book (3yrs old) it can then go into the stud book, but that only works with stallions on the KWPN approved studbook list:

KWPN acknowledged studbooks
- 2009 –

Riding type (dressage/jumping):
- Belgian Warmblood (BWP)
- Danish Warmblood Society
- Irish Sport Horse
- Nederlands Rijpaarden- en Pony Stamboek (NRPS, horses only)
- Pferdezuchtverband Baden-Württemberg e.V.
- Rheinisches Pferdestammbuch e.V.
- Stud-Book Francais du Cheval Selle Français
- Studbook Zangersheide
- Swedish Warmblood
- Trakehner Verband
- Verband Hannoverscher Warmblutzüchter e.V.
- Verband der Züchter der Holsteiner Pferdes e.V.
- Verband der Züchter des Oldenburger Pferdes e.V.
- Westfälisches Pferdestammbuch e.V.
- Thoroughbred

If they are not on the approved list then they would go onto the registration b which is also the registration for kwpn stallions that are not approved with any stud book.

As you can see there are no UK stud books who the KWPN recognize, so if you were to use a stallion who was registered/passported kwpn as a foal but then didn't license with its mother stud book (the one with which it is registered) ie. AES then the nearest thing to kwpn papers you could get to kwpn papers (worth any merit) would be register B which can not be upgraded to anything more. For example, if you had a filly foal born from a stallion who is licensed by an unrecognized stud book by the kwpn then thst filly could only go into the kwpn register b book (which is the lowest kwpn register). If you then wanted to breed on from her to a kwpn approved stallion that foal would then be register A and could then be put forward for stud book entry at 3yrs old at which point she would then be a stud book mare as long as it passed the necessary requirements.

British stallion owners often say they have licensed their stallion AES (for example) rather than their mother stud book (the studbook with which it was born into) to support british breeding, keep costs down etc etc, but if the truth be known the AES is much easier to license with as are the Zfdp (german stud with similar status to AES).

Anyway getting back to the studbooks.....With Oldenburg if you have a mare with a four generation pedigree and the stallion is licensed or approved with them then you can get pink papers for your foal, if you mare doesn't have a 4 generation pedigree but the stallion is licensed or approved with then then you can get white papers.

Thats an idea of Hanoverian, oldenburg and KWPN, trakhaner are a closed stud book they only accept (i think!!!) new blood into the stud book that is arab, anglo arab or thoroughbred. Holstein is semi closed they will only accept certain pedigrees - they will accept some new things in but its down to their discretion. Westphalian will accept any foal from a mother with a 4 generation pedigree and a father who is licensed with a stud book they recognize and performance tested than they will take the foal as Westphalian (as long as the mare is graded into the stud book).

This is what irritates me with stallion adverts, a lot of owners advertised that their stallion is a KWPN or Hanoverian or Oldneburg etc stallion which gives you the impression he is licened or approved with this society when in fact this is just the society with which he is was born into and registered with as a foal so is completely irrelevant to the mare owner. It then says (often further down in smaller writing) that he is approved AES or Zfdp for example which means that although they are advertising their 'hanoverian stallion' or 'kwpn stallion' that is completely irrelevant as the mare owner will only be able to get AES or Zfpd papers - which are hugely different.

I for one find this very misleading and think that there is a lot of confusion suriounding foal registration and what papers you are actually able to get for your foal.

What is your mare and who are you thinking of breeding her to and maybe i can give you an idea of what you could be thinking of getting?

 

[puc]

You need to look on your mares passport to see what registration she is, on the first page she will either be......
-VB, in foal book - not yet been put forward for grading into stud book, will happen if she has a foal which you are able to and choose to register kwpn then they will look at her and she'll move into the stud book
-STB, stud book mare already accepted in, this is the main book. If they're into stud book they can also be decorated mare... ster, keur, preferent, prestatie, sport, Ibop, prok, eptm, elite (you can look up further details on kwpn website as these come with further descriptions, lol!!)
-Reg A, if presented and accepted can move into stud book
-Reg B, will always be reg b

Given the choice i would choose not to register AES, if choosing a UK stub book to support british breeding then WBS (British Warmblood) would be preferable as their grading processes are more stringent. Internationally the AES is generally considered very poor and if you ever wanted to sell you foal no matter what people say it will either be easier to sell or worth more money or possibly both, with decent papers from a well respected stud book.

I would rather spend a bit more money and register with a well respected and highly regarded society like the KWPN who are actually going to work for you and market their studbook and keep standards high to keep the value and respect for their horses high. KWPN are currently top in the world breeding rankings having top dressage and show jumping, AES is 25th on the jumping and not listed on the dressage, and in last place/31st for eventing!!

Also who is the stallion licensed with??

 

[sywell]

Thank god at last people who understand the Studbooks well done PUC. If a stallion has pure Hanoverian bloodlines but branded by a different breeding association but is licensed and approved Hanover then the foal branding rules may not apply for mares of other breeding populations graded into the Hanoverian studbook. It is always best to check with Ulrich Hahne 0049423167313 if you have any doubts. You fail to mention the British Hanoverian Horse Society which under E.U. legislation is a daughter society of the German Verband but is owned by its British Breeders members

 

[LynneB]

more people might understand it better if it wasn't so complicated in many cases, at least for those registering for the first time...websites are often out of date as well as contact details etc and the variations on requirements can be huge between studbooks...

 

[puc]

It also doesn't help that there are quite a few stallions standing that are not licensed at all or have failed their licensing and are still standing at stud!! Or taking stallions failed abroad and passing them over here!!

I think the finer points of the procedure can get a bit complicated but basically use something licensed with a good stud book as although you will get different stallions appealing to many different tastes they will meet a very high standard and this is an essential starting point.

Another reason you hear of a lot is that the owners believe the stallion is 'too immature' to go to licensing, imo if it is too immature to license then it too immature to stand at stud , just wait until he is licensed!!

A well respected friend of mine once said... "If a stallion can not be licensed with its mother stud book then it should not be licensed at all" I think there is a large degree of truth in this as why take advantage of a kwpn, old, hann passport and then when the standards are higher than you can meet at the licensing stage just go elsewhere to something that is easier?

I saw recently a young trakehner stallion standing at stud with no license at all and for a similar price as other licensed stallions of similar type, does anyone know what passport a breeder would be able to get? Having never used an unlicensed stallion then not sure on the process - is it just a pet id passport??

 

[volatis]

For your example of an ungraded Trakehner stallion, then the foal would be eligble for part bred or preliminary papers depending on the dam's status, clearly not main stud book papers though

I think we should be everything we can to encourage British breeders to register their stock with British studbooks.

If you keep chucking money and registrations at the likes of KWPN or Oldenburg because you think it is more prestigious, then you are just adding fuel to the fire. Support your British stud books, there are plenty of choose from
BWBS, SHB, BHHS, TBF, AES to name just a few.

Personally I tend to register any pure or part bred stock from my Trakehner mares with the TBF, and then for foals by Hanoverian stallions or coloured stallions I either use the SHB or BHHS again depending on the mare's status.

 

[linali]

To license with most of the studbooks mentioned you would need to send a stallion overseas which is not always possible. I do agree that the AES for example are seen in a lesser light than their european counterparts but surely rather than jumping ship it would be better to try and fix this problem (and yes I realise that is probably easier said than done!)

 

[puc]

Thanks Volatis for answering that, it is such a shame if they think it is good enough to stand then why not just license it, its madness ... ggrrwww!!!!

It is more prestigious, i appreciate that some people just want a nice horse to ride but where the money is/business then it is important and this industry needs money and the only way to do that is to raise the game in the uk and bring the big money in. There will always be hobby breeders and i think thats great, we have couple bred purely for pleasure which are with us for life but there should be an outlet and a channel for business horses to go down, in a professional and marketable manor; an industry set up to support it.

Why would it not be possible to send it abroad to license?

I do agree but it is a chicken and egg scenario, all the time some british stud books (and i'm not being specific as i appreciate there are some good selection processes and fantastic horses) have poor licensing standards i for one would not register uk as it is not on a par with the europeans but i appreciate this isn't helping.

If the standard went up and it became more of a business, as stallion ownership is a business and should be big business, then i would put stallions forward and register foals over here but i have a business to run and it is up to the societies to lead the way and set the standard high not for their members to ask for it to be made more difficult!!

Someone once said to me they wanted there stallion to have a license and if their stallion wasn't good enough to license hann/old (can't remember which) then they would just put it forward Zfdp, they just wanted to pay their entry and come away with a license ... it shouldn't be like this!! I mentioned this to a friend of mine who is a german stallion producer and he said pretty much the Zfdp will license anything, so its not just the uk and AES but we unfortunately don't have the standard of the big stud books to fall back on for reliability in quality.

 

[puc]

[ QUOTE ]
Thank god at last people who understand the Studbooks well done PUC

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't worry your not alone! lol!! I just don't post that much but this is something i feel quite strongly about and it is an absolute pet hate of mine when you see people trying to fob of breeders with an ad like 'KWPN stallion, xxhh, colour, superb dressage/jumping breeding, bla bla bla bla bla xxxxxxxxxxx bla bla bla" OH and at the bottom in smallish print AES Licenced!!!! Why both putting KWPN if the mare owner has no chance of getting near a KWPN piece of paper!!! I just think it is really deceptive. Stallions online doesn't help as they are listed in the drop down menu by breed and out of all of the hanoverians that come up (twenty two i think), only nine of them are licensed or approved hanoverian and out of those nine stallions four are owned by one stud! Only six out of the fifteen listed oldenburg stallions are actually oldenburg licensed or approved and out of ALL 41 stallions under the KWPN heading, not one of them is licensed or approved KWPN!!!!!!!

 

[volatis]

I think I would disagree that the UK studbooks will license anything. I know the TBF bring inspectors over from the verband in Germany and include some of our home grown and fully trained inspectors, and the colts are evaluated in the same way as in Neumunster. They are assessed on hard standing, loose, in hand and over fences. And the grading panel will only pass colts that they would have done if they were inspected in germany itself.

OK so we dont have the 30 and 70 day preformance test over here in the same way they have it in Germany. But we do have the NASTA performance test which is modelled on the final weekend of the German testing

But certainly from the initial licensing no difference here compared to Germany.

I havent worked with the committee of the BHHS or the BWBS but I know they bring selectors over from the big studbooks in Germany, and indeed I know of colts that have been leased by the Germans after they have come and seen them at licensing here

We dont breed the volumes they do on mainland europe so we are not going to have the massive volumes of colts going through grading. And yes there are some stallion owners that are a little barn blind and present a colt that is not up to standard, but with the studbooks mentioned above, I have every faith in their grading panels.

 

[puc]

I would agree with you, i was not generalising about all uk studbooks (i did say above " SOME british stud books and i'm not being specific as i appreciate there are some good selection processes and fantastic horses - and i stand by this wholeheartedly), i don't know much about the TBF and I am aware that the BHHS and BWBS are good and have german judges come over. I'm really talking more about the AES and SSH tbh.

Even when i looked at the Expo stallion list it gave its mother studbook as it stallions stud book not the stub book it stood with and i don't believe that enough people realise the difference, thoughts?

 

[caldera]

Thank for all the help.

My mare is registered with KWPN and has a full 4 generation pedigree. On her passport it says VB. Does this mean that if i register the foal KWPN she can move into the studbook?

She is in foal to Luidam who is registered KWPN and is approved KWPN, AES, IHB. Does this mean i would be best to register the foal KWPN?

As much as i would like to support British breeding i also feel that if outside studbooks are more prestigious and could possibly add value to a horse then this is something i have to seriously consider.

I also have a three year old KWPN mare that is reg A. Can anyone confirm that this means that if i present her for grading, she can move into the studbook if she is accepted and why would she have been given this status when she was registered?

Thanks.

 

[sywell]

Dimaggio was licensed by the BHHS in the UK and on the Germany site for studbook licensed by it says Great Britain and our German judges always remind stallion owners we are licensing International Hanoverian stallions for use by any of the Hanoverian Societies.

 

[puc]

[ QUOTE ]
Thank for all the help.

My mare is registered with KWPN and has a full 4 generation pedigree. On her passport it says VB. Does this mean that if i register the foal KWPN she can move into the studbook?

She is in foal to Luidam who is registered KWPN and is approved KWPN, AES, IHB. Does this mean i would be best to register the foal KWPN?

As much as i would like to support British breeding i also feel that if outside studbooks are more prestigious and could possibly add value to a horse then this is something i have to seriously consider.

I also have a three year old KWPN mare that is reg A. Can anyone confirm that this means that if i present her for grading, she can move into the studbook if she is accepted and why would she have been given this status when she was registered?

Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi

Hope i haven't highjacked your post, went into a little more detail than i anticipated!! lol!!!

Your VB mare can be inspected by the kwpn and moved into the studbook. If she had high enough confirmation, movement/jumping scores she may even be eligable for being a STER mare. If you choose to register the foal with them then they will grade your mare into the studbook at the same time as the foal registration. They will also give you an idea of your mares strengths and weekness and probably comment on your stallion choice for the foal you have bred which is really interesting and helpful. Personally i would register KWPN given the choice of KWNP, AES, IHB.

The Register A mare will have to fulfill whatever criteria that the parent didn't for fill (which would be the reason why the foal/now 3 yrs old is a Reg A mare). So yes she can move up to Studbook once presented. What is the pedigree of your horse?? Then maybe i can tell you why it is reg A?

 

[puc]

[ QUOTE ]
Dimaggio was licensed by the BHHS in the UK and on the Germany site for studbook licensed by it says Great Britain and our German judges always remind stallion owners we are licensing International Hanoverian stallions for use by any of the Hanoverian Societies.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like i said before i'm not really talking about the more breed specific stud books, bwbs, hann, old, tbf ... more AES and SSH, as i feel that is more where the problem lays as they pass such a huge number of well below international standard stallions. The poor quality of SOME of the stallions presented is insulting and makes one wonder what the owners are thinking having such a poor judgement on pre selection of their horses before even getting to the stage of filling the grading forms in!! I cut a colt last year that i didn't feel was good enough to keep his balls, but tbh he would have put a lot for the stallions presented and approved with the AES and SHB to shame.

Ps. Dimaggio is fab, him and susanne have done us very proud

 

[caldera]

Detail is good. I've been trying to find out as much information as possible and although the books i have are very helful, they tend to give you a basic guide to what is involved but don't go into much detail.

The Reg A mare is by the Holstien stallion Massimo, a son of Cassini 1 out of a kwpn mare by acord 11 so i believe that is:
Massimo X Acord 11 X Capitol 1

 

[puc]

What is the mother called and who was she registered with?

 

[puc]

I think she is Reg A because her mother was KWPN but her father was Holstein but licensed Belgium Warmblood which is a recognised stud book by the KWPN but they have not actually had him approved by the KWPN. So she would have to for fill the criteria that the stallion hasn't, might be x-rays, might be endoscope.

Nice pedigree btw

have you got any pics?

 

[caldera]

The mother is called Grey Lady and she is kwpn.

 

[caldera]

Ah OK that makes sense.

Thanks. She is a lovely mare and I'm hoping to put her in foal this year.

I'm just working out how to use the forum properly at the moment so Pictures are a step too far at this stage.

One step at a time!

 

[lindsayH]

Interesting and helpful thread, thank you.

 

[puc]

Ha ha! No probs.

Did you know that your mare's half sister had a foal by Sandro Boy last year! I wouldn't mind seeing that, i think Sandro Boy is an amazing horse but unfortunately has terrible frozen semen quality

 

[woodlander]

Well, this is a great big subject. Put simply, for most studbooks, your mare first needs to be graded into the studbook (unless she is already ster or State Premium when she may go directly into the Select Studbook) and the sire needs to be acceptable to the studbook. If the studbook in question will not put you in its main or head studbook then go for a WBFSH one that will. As said by Puc, be certain that your "KWPN stallion" is KWPN licensed(not just papered and maybe licensed nowhere or with another studbook) and that your mare is graded. On the face of it then KWPN would be the place to go BUT please understand that if you do this you will have bred a DUTCH horse. Only registration with a British Studbook or full daughter society of a foreign studbook i.e. Trakehner of Hannoverian, will recognize your British Breeding.

I always choose the studbook that will give the greatest future breeding opportunity or choice for my studbook of origin. In my case that might be WBS-UK, BHHS or indeed SHB(GB) and AES where two of my stallions are approved or licensed. The quality of the horse will determine both its market and breeding value but should be supported by papers that meet an international standard.

 

[caldera]

No i didn't know that.
Sandro Boy is a horse that i had considered using but i had also heard that the semen is poor quality. It would certainly be interesting to see how that one turns out though.

 

[Eothain]

Sorry to wade in here with my two cents but I definately think that people should register with their home studbooks. Clearly there's a lot of concerned breeders on here. Thats a good thing because you can give the Societies a boot in the back side. This is a little bit hypocritical of me as I'm registering one of this years foals with AES and the other 4 with the IHB.
Any of the Irish users on here will tell you that all through the 90s and 00s that the IHB was sitting on its hands about breed policy. There simply wasn't one. People were happy to coast along and breed happy hackers hence the demise in our over all credibility. We still breed the best eventers in the world but thats more through accident than by design and we're gonna lose that title within 5 years I'd say.
Now we have a new plan to move the breed along and I must say, I'm looking forward to it.
Why don't some of you look into getting involved with a Breed society? Easier said than done I know, but as the saying goes: Nothing ventured, nothing gained! I'd love to see a powerful British studbook emerging to challenge the establishment.
Why don't you look up the new website for the Warmblood Studbook of Ireland (wsi). Their rules and procedures are a super example of how a young studbook should go about achieving its goals. If some of the poorer studbooks followed their lead, they'd find a quick turn a round in terms of improving their quality.
As for the poster with the Luidam foal to register, if I were you, I'd register it with the IHB because we're cooler than the KWPN. What's the dam sire? In reality though to have a proper British bred and improve breed quality, you should probably go AES!

 

[caldera]

Thanks Woodlander.

It all seems so confusing at the moment. I guess once you get your head around it all it seems simple. At least this is what i'm hoping.

So if i breed a dutch horse would i be right in thinking that this would mean i couldn't compete this horse in British bred classes BSJA/BS. Addington young horse championships for example?

 

[volatis]

why give the dutch credit for your breding success- totally agree with Woodlander - pick a British studbook!