Enfys
Well-Known Member
Being pessimistic, but preparing for all eventualities, what experiences and advice can you offer for mares rejecting foals?
Foal rejection.
- Thread starter Enfys
- Start date
AndyPandy
Well-Known Member
The rejection is generally caused by excessive interference by humans, so the first bit of advice is: don't interfere too much!
It may occur during parturition or after birth while the mare and foal are bonding, so don't leap in and start attempting "imprinting" or any of that stuff.
There are suggestions of heritability, so if your mare was rejected as a foal, she may reject her foal.
If rejection does occur, (bearing in mind acceptance of the foal can take up to 48hours), then the mare needs to be restrained (possibly chemically) by experienced and strong handlers. Never underestimate how violent the mare can be - she may attack the foal in extremely horrible ways, but this violence can easily be transferred to humans!
If the foal is rejected, get it out asap. It will need IgG supplementation within 24 hours of foaling. Orphans are also much more likely to have health problems, so be aware and get veterinary supervision and advise asap.
It may occur during parturition or after birth while the mare and foal are bonding, so don't leap in and start attempting "imprinting" or any of that stuff.
There are suggestions of heritability, so if your mare was rejected as a foal, she may reject her foal.
If rejection does occur, (bearing in mind acceptance of the foal can take up to 48hours), then the mare needs to be restrained (possibly chemically) by experienced and strong handlers. Never underestimate how violent the mare can be - she may attack the foal in extremely horrible ways, but this violence can easily be transferred to humans!
If the foal is rejected, get it out asap. It will need IgG supplementation within 24 hours of foaling. Orphans are also much more likely to have health problems, so be aware and get veterinary supervision and advise asap.
no_no_nanette
Well-Known Member
Our experience last year with a maiden mare was very salutary - (maiden foal breeders as well!) We had read everything possible, and had experienced people on stand-by - in the event the mare foaled when I was away from the stables for about 45 minutes, and when I came back she was very upset and confused - very protective towards the foal, but very stroppy if he tried to feed. I called the nearest vet, who sedated the mare so that we could try and get the foal on her, and we managed to get some colostrum from her into the foal, but she was getting more wound up, and it became evident that the vet was pretty inexperienced when it came to foaling. So at 4 am I rang the original stud vet in desperation - he was wonderful! First questsion - "How long has it been so far?" (About 5 hours) "OK, there's NO panic - the foal has had a small amount of colostrum, and you've got a good few hours before you need to feel anxious. Go home, go to sleep, and I guarantee that when you return the foal will be feeding". VERY experienced stud vet, and of course he was right!
Moral of story - as AP says, DON'T have too much fuss and anxiety around the mare, have the minimum people necesary to help, and DO have an experienced stud vet on call. I learnt a lot, along with the bruises suffered when I was towed around the stable by my mare!!!!
Moral of story - as AP says, DON'T have too much fuss and anxiety around the mare, have the minimum people necesary to help, and DO have an experienced stud vet on call. I learnt a lot, along with the bruises suffered when I was towed around the stable by my mare!!!!
KarynK
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
The rejection is generally caused by excessive interference by humans, so the first bit of advice is: don't interfere too much!
[/ QUOTE ]
Quite agree, check presentation then LEAVE THEM ALONE, unless there are obvious problems then there is no need to interfere. I foal mine in a small paddock with a field shelter, they have the choice of where to foal, always outside so far, I can check them for presentation and withdraw, and then they can do what they need to. You can play around with the foal later after it has bonded with mum.
Have seen some horrendous video's on u tube of people pulling foals out for no reason and breaking the umbilical chord. You can do untold damage pulling a foal out and a large amount of blood is transferred after the birth as the mare and foal rest just after delivery.
In those films all the lights are on and people are running around shouting and the poor mares are clearly stressed, no wonder rejections happen.
Interestingly I know of two mares by the same stallion that both rejected their 1st foals, but were fine with subsequent ones, I guess nature didnt kick in.
The rejection is generally caused by excessive interference by humans, so the first bit of advice is: don't interfere too much!
[/ QUOTE ]
Quite agree, check presentation then LEAVE THEM ALONE, unless there are obvious problems then there is no need to interfere. I foal mine in a small paddock with a field shelter, they have the choice of where to foal, always outside so far, I can check them for presentation and withdraw, and then they can do what they need to. You can play around with the foal later after it has bonded with mum.
Have seen some horrendous video's on u tube of people pulling foals out for no reason and breaking the umbilical chord. You can do untold damage pulling a foal out and a large amount of blood is transferred after the birth as the mare and foal rest just after delivery.
In those films all the lights are on and people are running around shouting and the poor mares are clearly stressed, no wonder rejections happen.
Interestingly I know of two mares by the same stallion that both rejected their 1st foals, but were fine with subsequent ones, I guess nature didnt kick in.
Angela_Wise
Well-Known Member
Maybe there can be some middle ground here. Having successfully foaled mares for over 25 years I find both the issues on u tube as well as the leave well alone both troubling.
I have had one semi rejection and that was a maiden mare who foaled out in the paddock during the morning and she took fright - I quickly caught the mare and took her back to her foal and then got both into the foaling box, after two hours all seemed back to normal.
I have also been called out to assist with a violent mare which was an unhappy ending, with the owners of the mare deciding to shoot her, as she was just so dangerous and a failed race horse with injuries. Foalie coped well and was certainly better off without mum.
I feel our routine is probably the normal - check presentation, assist with birth as and when necessary; make sure mum is ok once birthing process has happened; help mum dry the baby; tie up the afterbirth to itself once mum gets up if it does slip away as she rises. Stay with them until baby is on feet, has first suckle and poo and is able to get up unaided. On many occasions we put our little ones to bed so they dont tire themselves unnecessary - this we find a tremendous help especially with big colt foals, who struggle to find the milk bar - after a 10 minute nap they are usually right on.
Enfys - enjoy the birth of your foal and dont worry too much about all the horror stories you read and good luck.
I have had one semi rejection and that was a maiden mare who foaled out in the paddock during the morning and she took fright - I quickly caught the mare and took her back to her foal and then got both into the foaling box, after two hours all seemed back to normal.
I have also been called out to assist with a violent mare which was an unhappy ending, with the owners of the mare deciding to shoot her, as she was just so dangerous and a failed race horse with injuries. Foalie coped well and was certainly better off without mum.
I feel our routine is probably the normal - check presentation, assist with birth as and when necessary; make sure mum is ok once birthing process has happened; help mum dry the baby; tie up the afterbirth to itself once mum gets up if it does slip away as she rises. Stay with them until baby is on feet, has first suckle and poo and is able to get up unaided. On many occasions we put our little ones to bed so they dont tire themselves unnecessary - this we find a tremendous help especially with big colt foals, who struggle to find the milk bar - after a 10 minute nap they are usually right on.
Enfys - enjoy the birth of your foal and dont worry too much about all the horror stories you read and good luck.
JanetGeorge
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe there can be some middle ground here. Having successfully foaled mares for over 25 years I find both the issues on u tube as well as the leave well alone both troubling.
......
I feel our routine is probably the normal - check presentation, assist with birth as and when necessary; make sure mum is ok once birthing process has happened; help mum dry the baby; tie up the afterbirth to itself once mum gets up if it does slip away as she rises. Stay with them until baby is on feet, has first suckle and poo and is able to get up unaided. ....
Enfys - enjoy the birth of your foal and dont worry too much about all the horror stories you read and good luck.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ditto, ditto, ditto! What LOOKS like rejection - especially with a maiden mare - is often just a mare being a little confused and nervous (to say nothing of ticklish in the udder department!) On the odd occasion when a mare shows signs of being 'unhelpful', I tend to milk her and bottle the foal so he'll settle and sleep for a bit. That gives time for HER to settle and maternal hormones to kick-in.
A trailing after-birth literally frightens and upsets some mares - I use a Sainsbury's carrier bag - drop it in and then tail bandage the handles to the tail. Keeps it neat and tidy easily - I HATE handling the bloody stuff! As it comes away it just drops neatly into the bag.
Maybe there can be some middle ground here. Having successfully foaled mares for over 25 years I find both the issues on u tube as well as the leave well alone both troubling.
......
I feel our routine is probably the normal - check presentation, assist with birth as and when necessary; make sure mum is ok once birthing process has happened; help mum dry the baby; tie up the afterbirth to itself once mum gets up if it does slip away as she rises. Stay with them until baby is on feet, has first suckle and poo and is able to get up unaided. ....
Enfys - enjoy the birth of your foal and dont worry too much about all the horror stories you read and good luck.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ditto, ditto, ditto! What LOOKS like rejection - especially with a maiden mare - is often just a mare being a little confused and nervous (to say nothing of ticklish in the udder department!) On the odd occasion when a mare shows signs of being 'unhelpful', I tend to milk her and bottle the foal so he'll settle and sleep for a bit. That gives time for HER to settle and maternal hormones to kick-in.
A trailing after-birth literally frightens and upsets some mares - I use a Sainsbury's carrier bag - drop it in and then tail bandage the handles to the tail. Keeps it neat and tidy easily - I HATE handling the bloody stuff! As it comes away it just drops neatly into the bag.
TFS
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
A trailing after-birth literally frightens and upsets some mares - I use a Sainsbury's carrier bag - drop it in and then tail bandage the handles to the tail. Keeps it neat and tidy easily - I HATE handling the bloody stuff! As it comes away it just drops neatly into the bag.
[/ QUOTE ]
must remember in future lol
A trailing after-birth literally frightens and upsets some mares - I use a Sainsbury's carrier bag - drop it in and then tail bandage the handles to the tail. Keeps it neat and tidy easily - I HATE handling the bloody stuff! As it comes away it just drops neatly into the bag.
[/ QUOTE ]
must remember in future lol
Tharg
Well-Known Member
Do people still tie the foal bread to beam or wall for good luck?
S_N
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Do people still tie the foal bread to beam or wall for good luck?
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, I have not a clue what you mean
Do people still tie the foal bread to beam or wall for good luck?
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, I have not a clue what you mean
kildalton
Well-Known Member
Foal bread= placenta.
S_N
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Foal bread= placenta.
[/ QUOTE ]
Good gracious - never heard it called that before and think of the lovely placenta's I've had the joy of handling.... Can't say attaching one to a wall has ever crossed my mind though...
Foal bread= placenta.
[/ QUOTE ]
Good gracious - never heard it called that before and think of the lovely placenta's I've had the joy of handling.... Can't say attaching one to a wall has ever crossed my mind though...
machannah
Well-Known Member
my mare pretty much squealed all night whenever the foal tried to go to the milk bar, she was a maiden, so once the chap was up on his feet, i held her still to make sure he could get what he needed, stayed around a bit longer to make sure all was ok and then went back to the lorry where i could have a rest myself and watch out of the window. I didnt get much sleep as she did squeal an awful lot, however by the morning Mum was much happier and had bonded with him, the next few hours were a complete turn around and the maternal instinct had definately kicked in
I am really looking forward to this years foal, to see if that mothering instinct is instantaneous this time....good times
I am really looking forward to this years foal, to see if that mothering instinct is instantaneous this time....good times
genie
Well-Known Member
Bred many foals.only had 1 disaster. Maiden arab mare, to porduce 100% arab foal....
mare totally rejected the foal to the point where I thought she was going to kill him. Got the vet( wonderful man, very very experienced) Mare was sedated.........
Long story cut short....mare totally rejected the foal and after 3 days was removed from the foal. We ended up having to hand rear the foal but later on he developed complications with his bone structure and we ended up having him put down. the mare was given to an old friend of mine from school...who just wanted a mobile ornament and is now still with my old friend.
mare totally rejected the foal to the point where I thought she was going to kill him. Got the vet( wonderful man, very very experienced) Mare was sedated.........
Long story cut short....mare totally rejected the foal and after 3 days was removed from the foal. We ended up having to hand rear the foal but later on he developed complications with his bone structure and we ended up having him put down. the mare was given to an old friend of mine from school...who just wanted a mobile ornament and is now still with my old friend.
Tharg
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Foal bread= placenta.
[/ QUOTE ]
Good gracious - never heard it called that before and think of the lovely placenta's I've had the joy of handling.... Can't say attaching one to a wall has ever crossed my mind though...
[/ QUOTE ]
Not placenta, foal bread is another word for the hippomane/milt/melt/melch
Foal to First Ridden by Vanessa Britton (good book, got with 2 others as a bargain on ebay!)
"When picking up the afterbirth ready for inspection you may find a brown, rubbery, oval object called the Hippomane. This is about 5 cm in length and expelled with the afterbirth. It is unknown what it is, or what precise function it serves, although it is known to contain high concentrations of salts, including sodium, potassium, calcium, phosphorous and magnesium. When found, it used to be kept outside the foaling box as a lucky charm, to bring the foal good health. Although the name 'hippomane' come from the Greek word meaning 'horse madness'.
[ QUOTE ]
Foal bread= placenta.
[/ QUOTE ]
Good gracious - never heard it called that before and think of the lovely placenta's I've had the joy of handling.... Can't say attaching one to a wall has ever crossed my mind though...
[/ QUOTE ]
Not placenta, foal bread is another word for the hippomane/milt/melt/melch
Foal to First Ridden by Vanessa Britton (good book, got with 2 others as a bargain on ebay!)
"When picking up the afterbirth ready for inspection you may find a brown, rubbery, oval object called the Hippomane. This is about 5 cm in length and expelled with the afterbirth. It is unknown what it is, or what precise function it serves, although it is known to contain high concentrations of salts, including sodium, potassium, calcium, phosphorous and magnesium. When found, it used to be kept outside the foaling box as a lucky charm, to bring the foal good health. Although the name 'hippomane' come from the Greek word meaning 'horse madness'.
volatis
Well-Known Member
we keep the hippomanes if we find them and dry them out. Eventually they get binned but my grandfather always said it was good luck to find them so I always try
kerilli
Well-Known Member
i have had one near-rejection. mature maiden mare, very feisty and opinionated sensitive type anyway (my ex-Advanced mare), and i'd had her AI'd... which i have been told is not a good idea on a maiden mare. she foaled fine, with me there, but was absolutely terrified of the foal. as soon as she stood up, leaving foalie on the floor in the middle of the stable, she started zooming around it, and speeded up every time it twitched. seriously, she looked as if she thought i'd put a tiger in the middle of her stable. i knew this mare really really well, and NO WAY would i have left them alone.
got the vet, got her sedated quite heavily, patiently managed to get the foal to suckle eventually. the moment it did, after an initial squeal or two, she relaxed completely, and understood what it was and what it was for! she was a super mum from that second onwards, adored her foal. the next foal she had, she adored it from the moment it was born.
without sedation i think she would have killed the foal or jumped out of the stable, tbh.
i was always told that if you find the hippomane, throw it on the roof for good luck! only found 1 so far...
got the vet, got her sedated quite heavily, patiently managed to get the foal to suckle eventually. the moment it did, after an initial squeal or two, she relaxed completely, and understood what it was and what it was for! she was a super mum from that second onwards, adored her foal. the next foal she had, she adored it from the moment it was born.
without sedation i think she would have killed the foal or jumped out of the stable, tbh.
i was always told that if you find the hippomane, throw it on the roof for good luck! only found 1 so far...
S_N
Well-Known Member
PMSL!! Now THAT makes sense!! Hippomane - bread.
AndyPandy
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
and i'd had her AI'd... which i have been told is not a good idea on a maiden mare.
[/ QUOTE ]
What is the reason for this advice being given? She's hardly going to think - "oh! I just got jumped on by a stallion... now, I'm pretty sure that 340 days from now (well, 320-370 days), I'll have a foal drop out of me... I'm glad I got serviced naturally, or else I'd have no idea I was pregnant!"
I just can't think of any reason why someone would give this advice
and i'd had her AI'd... which i have been told is not a good idea on a maiden mare.
[/ QUOTE ]
What is the reason for this advice being given? She's hardly going to think - "oh! I just got jumped on by a stallion... now, I'm pretty sure that 340 days from now (well, 320-370 days), I'll have a foal drop out of me... I'm glad I got serviced naturally, or else I'd have no idea I was pregnant!"
I just can't think of any reason why someone would give this advice
AndyPandy
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Do people still tie the foal bread to beam or wall for good luck?
[/ QUOTE ]
It's a sweet old custom, until you realise that the hippomane is precipitated salts from urine which has at there for months and months in the amniotic fluid. It's a bit grim
Do people still tie the foal bread to beam or wall for good luck?
[/ QUOTE ]
It's a sweet old custom, until you realise that the hippomane is precipitated salts from urine which has at there for months and months in the amniotic fluid. It's a bit grim
S_N
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do people still tie the foal bread to beam or wall for good luck?
[/ QUOTE ]
It's a sweet old custom, until you realise that the hippomane is precipitated salts from urine which has at there for months and months in the amniotic fluid. It's a bit grim
[/ QUOTE ]
Has that actually been decided then?
[ QUOTE ]
Do people still tie the foal bread to beam or wall for good luck?
[/ QUOTE ]
It's a sweet old custom, until you realise that the hippomane is precipitated salts from urine which has at there for months and months in the amniotic fluid. It's a bit grim
[/ QUOTE ]
Has that actually been decided then?
AndyPandy
Well-Known Member
Yeah. Someone did a grim set of experiments in the States where they pooled aminiotic fluid (with a very high urine content) and made a set of hippomanes in the lab
GRIM isn't it?
S_N
Well-Known Member
Ewwww I can think of more exciting things to research!
maestro
Well-Known Member
The worst foal rejection we had was a maiden Arab mare. We have handled a few fosterings and this was far worse. It took us over three days and we had to be very hard with her but she was a brilliant mum in the end. She actually was not assisted we just watched on camera and only intevened when she tryed to throw it across the stable, it was horrible to watch.
Tharg
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do people still tie the foal bread to beam or wall for good luck?
[/ QUOTE ]
It's a sweet old custom, until you realise that the hippomane is precipitated salts from urine which has at there for months and months in the amniotic fluid. It's a bit grim
[/ QUOTE ]
Now thats just taking the fun out of it!
[ QUOTE ]
Do people still tie the foal bread to beam or wall for good luck?
[/ QUOTE ]
It's a sweet old custom, until you realise that the hippomane is precipitated salts from urine which has at there for months and months in the amniotic fluid. It's a bit grim
[/ QUOTE ]
Now thats just taking the fun out of it!
amandaco2
Well-Known Member
my maiden mare rejected her filly
she foaled fairly uneventfully-just needed a tiny bit of help getting bey out.
she was left alone straight away and they were calling each other and licking her filly as soon as she came out.
filly was strong and stood up in 40mins.
mare very motherly and wouldnt let foal from under her nose.
bey(filly) was trying to find the milk bar.and mum wouldnt stop likcing her or letting her from under her nose so we came in at 4 hours post birth and tried to help bey finmd the teat and mum got very stressed.she was ok with us handling baby but got VERY upset when we held her.tried holding her leg up and putting bridle on as she started rearing.
got vet who gave her 2 injections and filly drank
mare came too and turned on foal.had her teeth out and tried to charge at her.the mroe awake mum got the worse she was.she kicked at her and bit her.
so we gave her more sedative and we had to hold a front leg up,tie her up and pinch her neck otherwise she was kicking out like a mad thing when ever baby came near.
called several stud all advised giving her a really hard smack when she was nasty to the foal and loads of priase if she showed any affection
had to stay with them for 3 days and nights(had to restrain mare every single time baby went near for about 30hours and then she gradually got better.by 3 days they were on their own and fully bonded and never had a problem with mum again!
(shes not had another foal though)
she foaled fairly uneventfully-just needed a tiny bit of help getting bey out.
she was left alone straight away and they were calling each other and licking her filly as soon as she came out.
filly was strong and stood up in 40mins.
mare very motherly and wouldnt let foal from under her nose.
bey(filly) was trying to find the milk bar.and mum wouldnt stop likcing her or letting her from under her nose so we came in at 4 hours post birth and tried to help bey finmd the teat and mum got very stressed.she was ok with us handling baby but got VERY upset when we held her.tried holding her leg up and putting bridle on as she started rearing.
got vet who gave her 2 injections and filly drank
mare came too and turned on foal.had her teeth out and tried to charge at her.the mroe awake mum got the worse she was.she kicked at her and bit her.
so we gave her more sedative and we had to hold a front leg up,tie her up and pinch her neck otherwise she was kicking out like a mad thing when ever baby came near.
called several stud all advised giving her a really hard smack when she was nasty to the foal and loads of priase if she showed any affection
had to stay with them for 3 days and nights(had to restrain mare every single time baby went near for about 30hours and then she gradually got better.by 3 days they were on their own and fully bonded and never had a problem with mum again!
(shes not had another foal though)