Focus - two steps forward, one step back (long and whingy)

blackcob

blackcob

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After a brilliant few weeks we had a bit of a setback yesterday. Out in the park, on a long line, she spotted an off-lead spaniel that was quite intense (chasing a ball, barking, spinning round, generally being a crazy spangle :p). I called her to me no problem, sit, treat, begin to walk off in the other direction.

Crazy spangle spots us and begins to approach in a very excitable way - running forward, barking, spinning, staring at her, etc - Dax begins to fixate on it and won't snap out of it to follow me. I call her once more and walk off with the intention of giving her a tug when I reach the end of the line and then rewarding her when she comes back to me.

Spaniel woman spots us, marches over and is all "oh, I saw you struggling back there (:confused:), I've trained dogs for years, would you like to know where you're going wrong?". She takes my politely pained look as signal to start outpouring. I'm sure she was trying to be helpful, and most of the stuff she was saying were things we were doing anyway, but she was so incredibly condescending about it and all "my dog was doing X at four months, but that's because I'm an excellent trainer", that sort of thing. Fed up, I pointed out that at four months my dog was locked in a mid-terrace back garden and never socialised because her previous owner was a numpty, thanked her for her time and finally managed to reel in my (by now) extremely overstimulated dog. :o

Guh. I'm just so disappointed because I can call her off most things now, quiet dogs are no problem but intensity and excitement just make her go deaf. She is particularly bad with collies - it's that collie gaze and lowered stance, I think, it just sends her into that fixated zone. That woman made me feel about an inch tall, despite all of the many advances we've made so far, and saying 'well, a husky isn't the same as a spaniel' just sounds a bit lame to someone who's never owned an unbiddable dog like a husky (she had to ask me what breed she was, so is clearly not aware that huskies operate on a different level to normal dogs :().

She's not food-orientated, chicken and sausages elicit a better response than most treats but only for a couple of repetitions and then she loses interest. Neither is she fussed about balls and toys, even her favourite big cuddly woodlouse (and boy did we get some funny looks that day, running around waving a cuddly woodlouse...). In the house and outside with no intense dogs she's 100%, I can get focus and eye contact instantly, sit, down, stay, come, no problem, it just falls apart when there's too many distractions.

Any ideas? I know this will all improve with time and we've done really well so far, but she's an incredibly intelligent dog and I just can't help but feel I'm missing something somewhere that will help resolve this last problem.
 
Had Dax been fed?

Did you actually put any sort of pressure on the line? Sometimes when they have completely zoned out, distractions will not work and you will have to literally haul on her and bring her in or walk along the line, get her by the collar and bring her to where you want to be.

Give her one chance to focus and come back, and then physically bring her back - don't give her loads of options not to listen to you. You can give the line a tug. Or you can give the line a HEY! tug. She'll get a pop on the neck or the back, wherever, but she'll get over it and it will snap her out of it. Then when she is back 'with' you, positivity.

Never worry about other people. If they stare, who cares, if they talk rubbish, smile and nod. You know your own dog.
 
She'd had breakfast at 7.30am but it was late afternoon by this point and she doesn't have dinner until after the walk so she's keen to come back for food - I had a pocketful of kibble and chicken and was alternating the two to keep her guessing. Up until the spaniel appeared she was 100% coming back for a reward and interested in working with me. We'd been doing down - stay - come in the previous field with no-one around and she was perfect.

Yep, if she doesn't come back, she gets a tug. I very rarely have to put pressure on it these days, she knows that a whistle means an imminent tug if she doesn't react, but even hauling her back on the line is not enough of a deterrent to stop her fixating on a really interesting dog. She'll strangle herself on it while I drag her in rather than break eye contact with it. :( We're consistent, if she doesn't come when called then she is physically reeled in every time. She'll recall off a calm submissive dog no problem, usually immediately when called and only occasionally will she need an additional tug before she comes straight back.

I know, I know, the woman was a condescending witch, I just hate to be made a fool by people who don't know anything about the situation. She kept telling me I needed to train her in an empty field with no distractions - no sh*t, we've been doing that for months, she's fantastic at it, god forbid we encounter a few issues now we're transferring it to somewhere with distractions. :p
 
I'd bin the kibble altogether, it's not interesting.

Sounds like she was just a bit tired of work if you'd already been training for a while, don't get disheartened. If I was doing things over again I would do a lot more rewarding with 'freee!' - rather than food or a ball, you get to hoon around for a few minutes, then come back :)

Yeah, your woman is right, keep training in a sterile environment, that will REALLY help :p

Rather than letting her strangle herself and fight against you, if you can, show her the difference between a slack line and a tight one, throw her a bit of the line and pull back a few times while you are reeling her in (wish I was with you to explain, looks silly written down :o)
 
CaveCanem said:
(wish I was with you to explain, looks silly written down :o)
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Like tiring out a big fish when you're fishing by paying out slack and then tugging in in stages? :p Best analogy I can come up with, lol. I know that continuous pressure is not going to achieve anything but when the other dog keep coming forward, even as you're bringing them in, it's damn near impossible to do anything else. Equally, though, there's no point going back to the sterile environment because we've got that down by rote. I need to borrow a well-behaved, quiet dog to practice around - sadly a very rare thing around here, even at the bloody training classes. :rolleyes:

Blaaaargh. Today is another day. Positive attitude and intent and all that. Many thanks for help thus far, I'm reassured that I'm not going wildly wrong, I think more than anything I'm just angry at the woman from yesterday. Fair enough her dog was pretty obedient but she still allowed it to wind mine up something silly, and if I'd wanted a spaniel I'd have bought a bloody spaniel. :p
 
Ask the women the next time you see her, why, if she is such an excellent Trainer, her spaniel was barking, as it is regarded as an fault in Gundogs :p Spinning round and chasing a ball (running in) are also undesirable traits, and maybe she should go to see someone who knows about training Spaniels :D :D

(Disclaimer - I am not suggesting anyone who has a Spaniel exhibiting these traits is a moron, just that people who ram there training opinions on other people are)

Don't worry about it, I've always been given 'advice' on Otto from people who know better than me :rolleyes: If they actually did I'd give them the time of day, but when they haven't the first clue about what a Spaniel's role in the field is, I nod and plan what I'm going to have for dinner :D
 
*sigh*

She did it again - spent the entire walk almost entirely ignoring on-lead dogs, or those just walking calmly to heel, then spots just one that's off-lead and hooning and goes absolutely mental. :mad:

I'd already spotted it and got her engaged with a ball and food and she was absolutely fine, it was almost out of sight, then she just suddenly snapped and went galloping after it. Skinned a couple of fingers on the line. :o

Took me a full minute to bring her back to heel as she was dancing around on the end of the line like a mad thing, deaf as a post, all worked up because she could no longer see the other dog.

I can't trust her on a line there any more, back to short-lead walks only in the park. :rolleyes: Feels a bit like giving up but one of these days she's going to take off and take out some old granny on the taut line, or incite an aggressive dog with her very dominant run-in.
 
See we had to teach this for the long down, the dogs initially find it very hard to stay in one place, while the dog doing his or her routine is galloping back to the handler for the recall, from the down out of motion. Very exciting and most dogs want to break and join in the gallop.

One way we combat this is to tie the dog to a post. If the dog moves, you have an opportunity to engage it before it reaches the end of the line, then put it back in position, you can step in and grab the line before it reaches the end and put it back in position or you can wait until the dog reaches the end of the line and pops itself on the neck when it goes taught.

This is associated with some sort of corrective command obviously, the moment the dog breaks position and the moment it comes to the end of the line.

There is an issue with over intelligent dogs distinguishing being on lead from being off lead, but most don't 'get it'.

Wish you were closer!!!

(I have had that happen though, recall from a cat, walk to heel past cat, good boy - SOD THIS! Dog breaks and bombs after cat :p)
 
kirstyhen said:
Ask the women the next time you see her, why, if she is such an excellent Trainer, her spaniel was barking, as it is regarded as an fault in Gundogs :p Spinning round and chasing a ball (running in) are also undesirable traits, and maybe she should go to see someone who knows about training Spaniels :D :D

(Disclaimer - I am not suggesting anyone who has a Spaniel exhibiting these traits is a moron, just that people who ram there training opinions on other people are)

Don't worry about it, I've always been given 'advice' on Otto from people who know better than me :rolleyes: If they actually did I'd give them the time of day, but when they haven't the first clue about what a Spaniel's role in the field is, I nod and plan what I'm going to have for dinner :D
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^^^^ yep:p

I don't wish to sound harsh, but you'd hope a highly experienced dog trainer would recognise a husky when she saw it too:D

People often made sarky remarks about me and Henry:mad: but we are having the last laugh now (some of the time anyway):D Next time you could always do what I did once and hand over the lead... after the trying to be helpful person had been tanked off down behind my little wannabe husky, the advice stopped!:D

PS for steadiness, I have been told never to recall Henry from a sit stay, at the moment I only ever release him when I am next to him.

Oh and tell the spaniel woman that if she had more control over her dog, none of this would have happened in the first place (though I still can't understand why you wouldn't want a spaniel :D :D :D) :p
 
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Annette4 said:
I happen to know of one relatively local who will probably ignore her as he's a wuss and avoids big dogs ;)
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I'd be scared that he's conveniently snack-sized! :eek: :p

See we had to teach this for the long down, the dogs initially find it very hard to stay in one place, while the dog doing his or her routine is galloping back to the handler for the recall, from the down out of motion. Very exciting and most dogs want to break and join in the gallop.
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That's exactly it, a calm walking dog is hardly a distraction at all but one running is like OMGFUNLET'SGOOOOO! Thing is, I am the post - if she goes to chase I reprimand, then either tug or let her reach the end of the line and tug herself. Repeated bops on the neck/harness at full speed have not deterred her one bit. I'm not sure if she's just thick or very persistent. :rolleyes:

She's redeemed herself immensely this afternoon by visiting family and being a model dog, including being mushed around the garden by a four and six year old (they were playing arctic explorers) and playing ever so gently with my uncle's elderly dobe (who is normally dog-aggressive, her gentle nature has won him over and they were terribly sweet with each other :D).

Oh and tell the spaniel woman that if she had more control over her dog, none of this would have happened in the first place (though I still can't understand why you wouldn't want a spaniel)
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PMSL, so true - if she'd kept her mad bloody dog at a distance Dax would've lost interest and readily come back in the face of having nothing better to do. :p I like spaniels, I do, I'm just a masochist who likes untrainable wolfythings better. :D
 
This may seem a bit extreme but have you considered a spray collar?

We have a problem qith our Dobie fixating on other dogs and when she stopped listening to tugs on the line we found out about the spray collars.

They have a beep setting on them which acts as a warning, then if this is ignoreed you can send either a short or long puff of air under their chin.

This really helped us with our girlie and now she only needs the beep if she starts to get a bit obsessed and she's comes straight back to us now and behaves herself. :D
 
CaveCanem said:
Well then BC you'll just need to get her a pal, looks like she wants to get running with a buddy :D

Ya can't argue with instinct!
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Nooooooooooo! :p

I would actually love to have another and I'm sure it would do her a lot of good but where we are now it just isn't practical. Given our house situation (long story...) we are looking for another property but there's just nothing out there at the moment.

The second I have somewhere with a larger, more secure garden I would look to get another to keep her company. Even OH has (grudgingly) agreed, having seen her interact with other dogs. :)

You wouldn't catch me walking two of the buggers on long lines though, imagine the tangles! :D

beanie_boo, spray collars have been discussed - non-doggy OH is all for them, he's a real techie and is convinced that contraptions are the way forward - I'm not so convinced as the last thing I would want to do is have her associate the spray with other dogs and become fearful of them. She has a lovely nature with other dogs, if a little too enthusiastic :o and I wouldn't want that to change.
 
It depends how you use the collars, some people see such gadgets as a correction, but you can use them as an 'oi!' when your voice has not been enough, and once they have snapped back out of it by the 'oi!' and you have their attention, then recall and lay on the praise.
 
CaveCanem said:
It depends how you use the collars, some people see such gadgets as a correction, but you can use them as an 'oi!' when your voice has not been enough, and once they have snapped back out of it by the 'oi!' and you have their attention, then recall and lay on the praise.
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thats exactly how we use it, not as a punishment, only when she ignores us because she is very good at selectively hearing what you say :P

Was just an idea, let us no how you go :D
 
Eeeep. I don't know, I really don't. I don't know what exactly my objection is to a spray collar, given that we cured her of jumping up at people by arming them with a plant mister (:o).

I will give her more time, keep doing what we're doing and if we don't make any progress in a few months then it'll perhaps be a suitable next step. I want to have this knocked on the head by winter because when I finally hitch her up to the bike for real I can't have her distracted by loose dogs, else I'll end up in A&E. :eek:
 
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