Follow on from HELP nappy naughty horse?

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chancing

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I posted month or so ago about my new horse bought in January who was lovely until end of April where he turned into a bit of a ****. He had a back and saddle issue which is now sorted saddle adjusted back treated and vet checked farrier checked teeth checked etc so now can rule out all pain. However...

He is still being a total nightmare just wanting to nap and generally avoid doing any work. Just hacking and doing a small amount in the school - got help from professional rider also and she is having similar issues. Get on and then he naps and naps before going for a hack or in school. In school will go ok and not throw as many tantrums with prof rider but with me will do a bit of work and then slam anchors on and rear reverse spook and generally be awful. Hacking in company he is ok but still spooky and will nap. Hacking on own very very spooky which he has always been to a point but definitely worse at the moment, will whip round and nap and rear and reverse and generally be stupid.

So...sorry for long post. Has anyone had any experience one this will it sort itself out and will I get my lovely genuine loving boy back who seemed to generijnwly want to work for me and look after me? Losing the will here at the moment :(

Should add he is on hay in a small holed net as he is a very good doer he gets 12-14 hours turnout per day is very settled and easy on ground to handle. Not on any hard feed no other changes or problems discovered by Dentist farrier vet etc
 
Vet did a lameness work up and then had back lady and then another back lady for second opinion both fully qualified and used widely across U.K.
 
He's 10 and no she said not. He came from a local event rider who bought him as a 4/5 year old for her mum who hunted him a bit then lost interest. Then he was sort of anyone's ride for a while just hacking and hunting as a hireling and then did nothing and then was a hireling again when I bought him in Jan. He was in poor condition so whether he's feeling well and trying to take the muck all of a sudden.
 
Has anyone else been able to get a tune out of him? Are you weight and height suitable for him? (assuming as a hirling hes more than capable!) Have you tried a magnesium supplement? I would be looking into his diet, perhaps he is 'missing' something. I know magnesium deficiencies can cause behavioural issues, spooky being one of them......
 
Yes I suppose in a way. Sally got some good work out of him in school after his initial nappy silly bit and then he hacked yesterday and was very spooky but ok and then had a meltdown because a deer ran out of the hedge further down the field and took him 20 mins or so to settle again. And apparently he was good for most of a ride on Tuesday but still whipped round if something didn't suit. Feels as though he does 10 mins and then says that's enough.
 
Your description is suggesting pain to me.

I think the timing may be suspicious for medication of the back or the sacroiliac joint wearing off after purchase. Why did they suddenly stop using, and sell, an experienced hireling of a young age?

I would be asking for back x rays and if they are clear, a PSD scan, then a test of medication of the SI. Assuming you haven't the money or insurance to stick him in for a full scinitigraph scan.
 
Good suggestions above. How much work is he getting?

If he has been evented and hunted and behaved well during that time, could it be that he needs a heck of a lot of work to keep his behaviour in check? Have you tried upping his workload so that he's worked hard most days to see if it makes a difference?

Really hope you get to the root of his issues because it doesn't sound much fun for you at the moment.
 
It is always prudent to rule out pain - and I agree the timing could suggest a regular SI or hock medication wearing off. If you had him vetted now might be the time to check the bloods! But - to me it actually reads like a behaviour problem. (Although KS, SI issues and early stage wobblers are all often misdiagnosed as behaviour problems.) However what jumped out to me was that you said he was in poor condition when you got him and he isn't now. That suggests to me he was kept poor to limit bad behaviour - it happens a lot I'm afraid. Now he is fit and well fed he is "feeling his oats" as we used to say.

Obviously you can't reduce his hard feed as he isn't getting any. But might it be possible to reduce the quality of his forage? Or mix with oat straw? Equally can you turn out 24/7? Getting him and keeping him properly fit is a good suggestion - but you will need time to do that, and it might not work. You could try asking a horsemanship professional to work with you for a while (not the one beginning with P) and see if they have any suggestions. Essentially this is a really long term issue I'm afraid.
 
its a hard one to call but would suggest ruling out pain before working him harder.

ive had 2 horse, diff types,but same MO of behaviour-napping, rearing, spinning.

first horse i never felt was in pain when a lot of people said he MUST be, we have him scoped, x rays, scans, painkiller trial, did some injections regardless, swapped saddles,bits, feed, EVERYTHING and the vet could find nothing at all. His behaviour escalated to the point he was PTS but never ever found anything and eventually concluded it was either mental problems, or behavioral (had been same way since backing).

second horse everyone felt was just being naughty (as is young and entire) but my gut said he was genuine and must be in pain.... despite being fat, shiny, gorgeous coat, full of beans and a total hoover pig he had grade 4 infected bleeding ulcers that had been rumbling along maybe since weaning!!!!

in your shoes i would scope, medicate the SA, x ray hocks and back and scan suspensories...... not necessarily in that order but they are the most likely culprits and your vet will be able to decide where to start.

you are going to need to throw some money at him i think, as it could be something awful or nothing at all some sweat wont sort!
 
Hi OP,

I feel you pain as I've been in a similar situation, albeit with my big WB who I've owned from a baby. To cut a long story short, I ruled out all of the physical causes and got some professional help from Jason Webb and Tom Mitchell. I still have regular lessons with Tom nearly 2 years later and can honestly say it was the best decision I ever made as it's completely turned the relationship with my horse around. Not sure what part of the country you're in but please let me know if I can help.
 
I had one who came to me very poor, but perfectly mannered. As soon as it put a bit of condition on and was fed properly (i.e. For what it was doing, not overfed) it became a spooky nightmare. Managed to find a link between its behaviour and alfalfa and knocked that on the head and saw an improvement, but very much had to keep it slightly underweight in order to get much out of it really.

But I would definitely go down the full vet check route first, just in case.
 
If the horse has had back pain, from a poorly fitting saddle and is on restricted feed, it is possible that he has de veloped gastric ulcers, or that they have flared up again, if he had them when he was poor. I would either have him scoped, if finances/insurance allows, or ensure that he has ad-lib forage available, by means of feeding oat straw chaff if necessary, or, if your vet agrees try a gastroguard trial.
His behaviour definitely sounds pain related.
 
Thanks for all replies feeling very down with this whole thing :( ive just booked him in for another full lameness work up, having his fully scoped and then if nothing found back checked again (4th time) and a bute trial.

Im almost hoping for some ulcers! Hes out grazing approx 6pm - 8am and he has ad lib forage during day albeit in a small holed net to slow him down but he doesnt ever finish it. He looks fat and shiny and full of beans so im hoping its the same as the lady above.

Just a thought?! raff has episodes of either very smelly runny poo or hard dry fairly solid 'pellet' poo could this be indicative of anything?
 
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chancing said:
Thanks for all replies feeling very down with this whole thing :( ive just booked him in for another full lameness work up, having his fully scoped and then if nothing found back checked again (4th time) and a bute trial.

Im almost hoping for some ulcers! Hes out grazing approx 6pm - 8am and he has ad lib forage during day albeit in a small holed net to slow him down but he doesnt ever finish it. He looks fat and shiny and full of beans so im hoping its the same as the lady above.

Just a thought?! raff has episodes of either very smelly runny poo or hard dry fairly solid 'pellet' poo could this be indicative of anything?
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My vets tell me: Back checks can't rule out kissing spines, only x rays can. Ulcers are often present when a horse has kissing spines. Bute trials are often not effective with kissing spines. Please don't waste your money on any more back checks.
 
sounds like my horse last year!! He was okay hacking in company but wouldn't go in front.

No one else would ride him for me because he reared so much! so I took 2 weeks off work and had a plan that by the end of the 2 weeks I'd have him hacking alone! I actually managed it the first day!! just around the farm, but I managed to have 6 days a week, going slightly further each time, without much napping!!

If he refused to go I had to get a really aggressive tone and I did use my whip, he would rear, but I had to keep going. once he gave in he realised he could have a lot of fun!

So I sent loads of time just getting him 100% around the farm then about 4 months later, I attempted the roads, he planted on the corner, which is a really dangerous place but this point I didn't need to use the whip any more, I was firm with my voice and leg and he gave in within a couple of mins. The next time it took 30 seconds and since then he rarely plants there!

He still has the stubborn streak in him but he also realises that I will not take his s h I t anymore, so he gives in very quickly now!

I've always been a very soft rider but I've had to get so much firmer! my yard manager has helped me a lot with that! and she says how proud she is with what I've achieved, as she genuinely didn't think id get there!!

If you look back at my posts from this time last year, they would be very much in line with what you've written!

So really slow, steady and firm are what worked for me!

Off to the beach tomorrow! yay
 
Have you had his back x-rayed and flexion tests or a lamness work up at the vets? I know hes been checked etc but my mare was EXACT the same and following flexion tests and a work up, then me begging for xrays (even though 2 physios said she was fine!) she had kissing spine and arthrtis in her hocks at 8. Gutting.
 
ycbm said:
My vets tell me: Back checks can't rule out kissing spines, only x rays can. Ulcers are often present when a horse has kissing spines. Bute trials are often not effective with kissing spines. Please don't waste your money on any more back checks.
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Agree with YCBM - back xrays will be only £300-400 and well worth it. Back checks are pointless. They can feel the muscles and not the bones mind it turned out mine had several muscle damage and loss from the KS and no physio could tell. Mine was avoiding work as she was in agony. Specially if they do alot to young, ie hunting, eventing etc..
 
Aimeetess said:
Agree with YCBM - back xrays will be only £300-400 and well worth it. Back checks are pointless. They can feel the muscles and not the bones mind it turned out mine had several muscle damage and loss from the KS and no physio could tell. Mine was avoiding work as she was in agony. Specially if they do alot to young, ie hunting, eventing etc..
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I agree, my horse was xrayed for KS 5 months before I had to start getting hard on him!

Once you know this isn't an issue you have to get tough and let him know that napping is not ok!
 
Mine was like this and just to discount it, I had her scoped. Turned out she had grade 3 ulcers which were bleeding. She was in excruciating pain. I am surprised at how many horse owners overlook this incredibly common problem and try everything else first. With what I now now, unless there is something blatantly obvious, I would scope first to discount it, and if no ulcers, then look at other possibilities.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
If the horse has had back pain, from a poorly fitting saddle and is on restricted feed, it is possible that he has de veloped gastric ulcers, or that they have flared up again, if he had them when he was poor. I would either have him scoped, if finances/insurance allows, or ensure that he has ad-lib forage available, by means of feeding oat straw chaff if necessary, or, if your vet agrees try a gastroguard trial.
His behaviour definitely sounds pain related.
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This
 
chancing said:
Scoped and nothing so next week he has to stay in and have work up again and X-rays so we will see
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I don't understand why he'd have to stay in before having a work up?

My vet made me lunge my horse every day until he went in for the work up, so that we ensured that the problem was still there when he went in. Otherwise whatever was causing the pain might have subsided without the work and would have been more difficult for them to find?
 
What exactly did he have done on the first workup, Trot up and down in a straight line and lunge on a circle, or did they do nerve blocks?
 
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