Follow on from Kit279 - Thrashing a horse

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flowerlady

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How many of us have witnessed at shows, riding schools out hacking etc., anywhere really that children are riding, do we witness over use of the whip, wearing spurs and constantly kicking.

It always amazes me that when a child is learning to ride they are given a crop as a matter of course. Why are they not taught to use legs, seat and voice commands before introducing these artifical aids?

Then we get to the showground after they have succeeded to learn walk, trot and canter enough to stay on and the parents buy their little horrors a nice safe little pony. It is then that the child becomes like a little satan yanking on the pony's mouth, trashing it with a crop, and kicking so hard the pony has probably got dead side by now. So then they buy them spurs (which in my opinion) Children should never be allowed to wear. Nor carry a crop until they understand the use of it. Then they start screaming at the poor pony who by this time doesn't seem to understand what's expected of him. If he bucks and rears he's a bad un. If he doesn't go forward enough he's a lazy devil who deserves everything the child can throw at him. I was very pleased to see at a jumping competition run at one of the BHS colleges one of the judges asked one of these children to come to the judges table as we were near there we heard them tell them if they used the whip again they would be disqualified and not allowed to enter any more of their comps. The child then went again at the jump the pony jumped it and the child then thrashed it hard towards the next jump the Judges shouted over the tanoy you are now disqualified and will your parents please come to the Judges table. An argument then started and they were asked to leave the premises. I feel sorry for what may have happened to the pony when they got it home. So why teach them to rely on a whip and spurs. To me this is an abuse of the animal which sometimes instructors should take on board when teaching from the beginning.

PS. I am not saying all children ride like this but far too many.

What are your views cookies if you get this far
 
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At the riding school my daughter attends they are not allowed whips for that very reason. They have to learn the other aids first.

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Well thats good to hear. Lets hope it moves to alot of the other schools.

Weebler can I ask in your siggi about pudpud were you pudpud or are you a friend telling us pudpud's been absent
 
i do carry a whip with me, but i only use it to encorage the horse to do what i want it to do, IF it hasn't listened (sp) to my voice command or legs. i will admit i used to use the whip quite a lot when i first started riding, but that is only because i wasn't very confident. i never hit them hard but i prefere just giving them a SMALL reminder when i realy need to.
 
I carry a whip in the summer - so I can swat horseflies off my boys! Otherwise, I don't think I've ever used a whip - I just ask nicely and the horse usually gets the message. I've always had TBs though so maybe I don't need a whip...
 
The thing is though is that i'm 22 and I know that if you ride at a certain level you do need spurs etc but I have never used spurs in my life and have in fact had to buy dummy spurs for showing and although I always carry a whip it is reserved for emergencies e.g. moving bums out of the road when hacking. Like flowerlady said, why are people being taught to ride with these aids, surely you should be taught to ride first and these should be used to better your abilty once you are at that level, they should not be used as a quick fix to stop you having to learn the hard way!
 
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i will admit i used to use the whip quite a lot when i first started riding, but that is only because i wasn't very confident. i never hit them hard but i prefere just giving them a SMALL reminder when i realy need to.

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This was my point you used the whip when you first started riding!!
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But you say it was because you weren't very confident. Did the whip make you feel confident?
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IMHA if a pony or horse is smacked repeatedly they are more liable to buck rear and throw you off.
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So learner riders should not be given the option of using a quick fix aid such as crops or spurs.
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I can't understand how smacking a pony/horse with a whip would have made you feel more confident.
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Words like thrashing & whipping are far too emotive & are frequently inappropriately used to describe abuse / misuse of the whip. I don't know if I have ever seen a horse 'Thrashed' as such....& no I haven't led a particularly sheltered life.
I have however seen loads of instances where the whip / spurs &/or bit are being used abusively/incorrectly. As a judge I will warn & if necessary eliminate competitors whenever I see it happening, & when I'm not officiating I speak up either to the organisers or deal with it myself if I see any behavior regarding the treatment of a horse or pony that concerns me.
I don't condem correct & appropriate use of whips or spurs, but I will not stand by & see them used abusively.
 
Yes Baileyboo I agree with your sentiments and I was talking about when peeps are first learning to ride the first things parents seem to buy them from the tack shops are Riding Hat, Body Protector, gloves and a crop? I suppose when they whack them as a lot do they need all these things to protect them from the fall they will inevitably have. A shame they don't buy them a book on riding and understanding the horse for beginners.

Well done you buying dummy spurs. I have no problem with spurs or crops when used properly and not incessantly.
 
I didn't even have a saddle when I was learning to ride. Never mind any artificial aids!

As far as I'm aware, you don't ever NEED spurs or a whip for any discipline. The horse may require them to be able to achieve what they're being asked to. But at this level they're being riden by proficient riders.

Maybe the manufacturers should be persuaded not to make kiddie sized spurs????? If it's available, kids these days want them.
 
Zebedee I use the word 'thrash' & 'whipping' as to me this is what I consider are emotive enough to get the point across. 'Misuse of the whip does not describe scenes I have seen (at shows outside the ring holding the whip like a baton and thrashing the pony hard). As I have said further down I have no problem with spurs or crops when used properly not just because the pony say knocked a jump down and they are angry.
 
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well i have only been riding a year. i only realy used my whip for the first 2 months ( i only ride once a week at my local riding stables)

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See what I mean why in the first 2 months would you need a whip?
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I agree - my pet hate is seeing kids yanking their ponies heads about. Where I did my training the children were all taught to ride "hands free" they weren't allowed to hold the reins until they could do a rising trot independent of the reins (they were being led I hasten to add) and this gave them a good balanced seat and they had to learn to use their legs to turn the ponies instead of their hands. All the children that I have taught since I have done this with including my own and my ponies and horses are all taught to go off the voice and the aids so that hopefully they won't need a smack. They don't get away with murder if they don't listen they have a "little reminder" but I think with children these days it is the parents that are to blame there is so much new money around and little Angelica has to have a pony to be like the next door neighbour/classmate and when they don't do well because they've learnt on a riding school angel and been bought a totally inappropriate pony by parents who have no idea they take it out on the pony.
 
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I agree - my pet hate is seeing kids yanking their ponies heads about. Where I did my training the children were all taught to ride "hands free" they weren't allowed to hold the reins until they could do a rising trot independent of the reins (they were being led I hasten to add) and this gave them a good balanced seat and they had to learn to use their legs to turn the ponies instead of their hands. All the children that I have taught since I have done this with including my own and my ponies and horses are all taught to go off the voice and the aids so that hopefully they won't need a smack. They don't get away with murder if they don't listen they have a "little reminder" but I think with children these days it is the parents that are to blame there is so much new money around and little Angelica has to have a pony to be like the next door neighbour/classmate and when they don't do well because they've learnt on a riding school angel and been bought a totally inappropriate pony by parents who have no idea they take it out on the pony.

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Exactly
 
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well i have only been riding a year. i only realy used my whip for the first 2 months ( i only ride once a week at my local riding stables)

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See what I mean why in the first 2 months would you need a whip?
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As a former RS teacher I can answer this one!!
RS horses & ponies are a breed apart!! They are wiley, clever & a good one is worth it's weight in gold. They are however sometimes a bit too clever!! They know straight away when riders are unable to use their legs efficiently enough to motive them (the ponies). If these riders are not allowed to carry a stick they will not learn or progress as the wretched animals spend the whole session smirking with a 'Make me' look on their faces!! Give the riders a stick however which they may need to give one or two 'taps' with at the beginning of the lesson & we see a far more co-operative animal!!
The argument of "well then they'd learn to use their legs properly" simply doesn't apply in the real world....the ponies are far too clever to let it!! These are the same ponies that will carry an RDA rider like precious china in one session & try to buck off a AI student in the next!! They know exactly what caliber of rider is on their back & react accordingly...not always for the better!!

I still say that using the words whipping & thrashing to describe abuse of the whip clouds the issues that are under discussion. Abuse / misuse of the whip begins far before actual 'Thrashing' occurs
 
It's not just children that miss-use whips , at our local riding club last Sunday the adults were jumping and one particular "rider" was absolutly thrashing her horse before every jump it was awful to watch and in my opinon she should of been thrown out , the horse was lovely but had every gadget on possible and the poor thing couldn't concentrate on jumping because it was being whipped for England , so when it refused and she nearly fell off we thought she was going to kill it
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, I was disgusted by her and other adults cheering her on , our pony was absolutly terrified of whips when we bought him but has got used to my girls carrying one now , pony club insist on them riding with whips but they wont use it on him because he gets very disstressed and upset
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I still say that using the words whipping & thrashing to describe abuse of the whip clouds the issues that are under discussion. Abuse / misuse of the whip begins far before actual 'Thrashing' occurs

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But if they weren't given a whip to misuse the 'Thrashing' wouldn't occur in my opinion. But I do see your point and do know that riding school ponies will as I put it take the mick out of learner riders. But the instructor should be able to stop the misuse of whips then if we use your terms by teaching that the whip is only for show??? To get my point across I use the word 'Thrashing' or whipping as I said before if someone said they were misusing the whip. I would have to ask them to explain. If I was told they when whipping the pony I would understand immediately.

I think we may just have to agree to disagree on the terminology and hopefully agree that the crop is used far too much?
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Sueandtoto I never carried a whip on my horse it should be your childrens choice. The club should encourage this not insist on it.
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Can I ask when doing games and they have to jump off an on again and pick things up what do they do with the whip then?
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Maybe as a parent you should ask the club organisers why they HAVE to carry a crop especially if your pony gets upset by it.
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There is far too much inappropriate use of whips & spurs & it does MAINLY occur at the lower levels. The problem has escalated because in the 'Want it now' culture that children in particular are allowed to grow up in fewer & fewer appreciate the time factor in educating both horses & riders. Who cares about position ,balance & softness when the horse is managing to heave itself over the 2'9 fence & wins a rosette? That fact that correctly ridden & schooled the horse is question is probably capable of jumping much higher is immaterial to them. They must be doing ok because they've won a prize is the attitude of many parents & frequently adult riders
 
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There is far too much inappropriate use of whips & spurs & it does MAINLY occur at the lower levels. The problem has escalated because in the 'Want it now' culture that children in particular are allowed to grow up in fewer & fewer appreciate the time factor in educating both horses & riders. Who cares about position ,balance & softness when the horse is managing to heave itself over the 2'9 fence & wins a rosette? That fact that correctly ridden & schooled the horse is question is probably capable of jumping much higher is immaterial to them. They must be doing ok because they've won a prize is the attitude of many parents & frequently adult riders

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Echo all this
 
my 5yo is learning to ride atm. Her little legs don't actually come much past the saddle flaps at all. Pony is kind and as safe as houses, but will not walk on for her. So right now she has a little whip. She gives 2 leg aids and if no response she taps with stick. Pony moves.

I've reinforced that the leg aid comes first, she always remembers and actually I have to remind her to use the stick. It's not that the pony is dead to the leg, she is off the leg WHEN she feels it. Little one isn't capable of thrashing or hitting hard, and I'm comfortable that the pony isn't at all abused.
 
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Sueandtoto I never carried a whip on my horse it should be your childrens choice. The club should encourage this not insist on it.
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Can I ask when doing games and they have to jump off an on again and pick things up what do they do with the whip then?
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Maybe as a parent you should ask the club organisers why they HAVE to carry a crop especially if your pony gets upset by it.
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The instructors at Pony Club like the kids to carry whips to re-enforce their leg aids if needed , Toto does not need a whip really , and yes as a parent I have asked if they have to have one and was told those are the rules! , they dont play games at their local riding club , they do showing classes.
 
My first pony was far from safe!! And I couldn't even use a whip on him, or he'd have been even worse!

Don't agree that it's teaching them to use a whip thats the problem. It's parents who fail to teach their children a horse is a living, sentient being that has feelings and doesn't understand why it's being thrashed.

Have spent much of the last 13 years with a whip in hand and have never thrashed a horse because I was a sore loser!
 
when i first started riding we didn't get to use a whip until we were moved into the more advanced class.
I do remember going into an adults class once, they were all very good, then this lady's horse didn't canter when she asked so she whipped it again and again several times really hard, i wasn;t that old, and it really shocked me and the RI didnt say anything to the lady not to do it. the horse reared because of her smacking it so much.
I moved classes after that and i have ridden that horse myself and it never behaved liek that with me.
I definately think children shoulnt be allowed to use spurs, until they are older so understand the proper use, even though soem adults who know how to use them properlyabuse them which in some cases is worse.
 
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There is far too much inappropriate use of whips & spurs & it does MAINLY occur at the lower levels. The problem has escalated because in the 'Want it now' culture that children in particular are allowed to grow up in fewer & fewer appreciate the time factor in educating both horses & riders. Who cares about position ,balance & softness when the horse is managing to heave itself over the 2'9 fence & wins a rosette? That fact that correctly ridden & schooled the horse is question is probably capable of jumping much higher is immaterial to them. They must be doing ok because they've won a prize is the attitude of many parents & frequently adult riders


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I agree with this whole topic and Zebs comments in particular. This is why you see so many lame / injured ponies. Poor riders and insufficient warm up, before jumping or cantering around the place, I have seen it again and again.

Also remember, the whip happy child, if not corrected turns into the whip happy teenager who grows to be the whip happy adult.

I was at a HT a couple of weekends ago and saw a rider in her late teens doing the classic, screaming, yanking and whipping. What was lacking was a rider with any ability. I saw a similar situation at Badminton charity ride, where a rider in her late teens early twenties was trying to get her horse over a 2'9" roll top. Every time the horse jibbed out, as the rider was trying to go much too fast. It was like watching someone do the birdie dance on horseback, after taking amphetamines, with arms legs and whip all thrashing away. Eventually the horse jibbed out one last time (fourth or fifth attempt) the rider fell off, landed on the roll top and really seemed to hurt herself. I could not help but say 'thank goodness for that' and several people around me agreed.

I am afraid this sort of thing is not just confined to kids
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Echo what Zebedee says about rs ponies. I learned at a small rs (many years ago) The rs horses and ponies know exactly what you are capable of and take the p*** accordingly. I dont believe I ever owned a whip until I got my highland as a two year old. I only used it to keep his bum in on the roads and would not dare to use it on him now. I'd be off over his head very quickly. My grand-daughter owns a pure bred arab who she rides very well. She has a few problems with him napping and does use a whip to reinforce her leg but only when neccessary
 
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