Follow on to all KS threads. Why and Why??

Elsbells

Elsbells

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After reading and hearing so much about horses suffering from kissing spines, the operations and all the problems and limitations that follow this, I wonder why KS appears so often?

Is it from breeding a to short coupled a horse nowadays, or something else?

When I was a girl,(I'm aged) horses were longer in build not taller, they still got rosettes in the ring and we didn't seem know anything about cold backs and kissing spines then?

I'm not trying to stir things up, I'm genuinly intrested. So opinions anyone please?
 
It could simply be that it is spotted earlier and more often these days with better technology and teaching in vet colleges.
 
dollyanna said:
It could simply be that it is spotted earlier and more often these days with better technology and teaching in vet colleges.
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Or it could be that so many owners and riders don't know when they have problems and carry on regardless, there isn't the 'feel' for horses from many now so that many get pushed far too hard far too soon.
It's not that long ago that you'd almost be shot for even thinking of backing (racehorses excepted) a horse before it was four - and later if it was a big one, now they're expected to work in an outline within weeks of being broken at three. It's no wonder that so many break nowadays, their skeleton hasn't been given a chance to mature slowly and naturally before they are expected to carry not only themselves but a rider too.
 
Well said, Maesfen. With you 100%. Too much is expected of horses too young, and I also believe that many modern horses are totally 'over-schooled' as that's all their riders care to do with them; there's also an element of the Peter Principle, where you are promoted - or promote yourself - to the level of your own incompetence. and the sufferers are the horses, with their kissing spines and cold backs and behavioural problems, not their riders. I'm aged too, as you can tell......
 
I grew up with them started and turned away at 2 or 3 if they were late growers. To me we've got more worried about starting them 4 plus.
 
Part of me feels that insurance allows owners and vets to "dig" a bit deeper to come up with an answer and technology has helped provide this.

Whilst the other part feels that older (more traditional) methods included turning away for 6 or 12 months / and not starting a horse until it's older in the first place.


I often wonder whether it is the buyers that want to see a 4 or 5yr old with a comp record and plenty of experience, or whether it is the sellers that feel they must get their youngster out to make it more marketable?

-I'll ignore the "it's too sharp to be backed or ridden so I'll breed from it.".
 
Maesfen said:
Or it could be that so many owners and riders don't know when they have problems and carry on regardless, there isn't the 'feel' for horses from many now so that many get pushed far too hard far too soon.
It's not that long ago that you'd almost be shot for even thinking of backing (racehorses excepted) a horse before it was four - and later if it was a big one, now they're expected to work in an outline within weeks of being broken at three. It's no wonder that so many break nowadays, their skeleton hasn't been given a chance to mature slowly and naturally before they are expected to carry not only themselves but a rider too.
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This^^^^^^^.

IMO, it is also because of the modern style of riding. Horses are frequently not ridden 'from behind' but pulled in from the front, with far too many riders using too much hand and not enough leg. This develops the wrong muscles.
I have read of an alternative treatment for KS which involves working correctly to develop enough musculature to hold the skeleton correctly. What a pity that the correct musculature wasn't developed in these horses to start with.
 
Just tried to add this but was too late.

ETA, just been reading another thread about bitless bridles, which just exemplifies what I was saying. When I was a child we were taught to ride without reins (and not on the lunge either), the horses went correctly 'in an outline' because they were ridden from the leg and did not rely on a bit to hold them in position, neither did the rider.
 
my horse developed it (very very mildly) after having a long time off after an injury, as she had built up the wrong muscles to avoid the pain when she was off work- i have heard of this happening in a couple of cases now
 
Biggest cause in my opinion is the fact many horses are pushed to do too much to young just so they can be sold as a "potential".

Ill fitting tack is another issue that creates all sorts of problems and it is far too common. People tend to just slap a longer saddle on their horses regardless of whether their horse has room for that saddle or not, they want/need a larger saddle so they get one and forget the horse.

I don't think the fact many horses are backed so young - and often by people who are far too heavy - gives them a very fair start in life either.
 
When I was younger and working in an old fashioned hunting/showjumping yard, physical causes for behaviour such as bucking was hardly ever considered. We all had our favourite saddle and used it on whatever horse we rode. I think that KS was just as common then, but it just wasn't investigated. Horses were seen as quirky or just plain dangerous. They were usually shot if the problems persisted. Even now, horses with KS are often just seen as 'cold backed'.
 
I agree with what the others are saying. I think there was a bit less tolerance in the "old days".
In the case of my mare it's probably nothing to do with her confirmation, which is pretty good, or her breeding as she comes from a long line of endurance horses. The best guess was the result of a falling over on to her back when she was a yearling.
 
I had my hunter PTS three weeks ago for KS he had a uneven pelvis when he arrived and was a very naughty horse but we got him fit well muscled and all was ok I had a lot of fun with him but over the sumner he changed I thought he needed a break so took of his shoes( we tended to keep him ticking over as it kept his muscles in good shape ) I brought him up in September and it was clear something was different he was quieter and a little flat really more of the same I felt earlier in the year and he had lost a lot of back muscle.
I got him on a fittening programme he started hunting all was well expect he was strong in the hand which he had never been before and he would not stand for the farrier without me holding him
Two weeks before Christmas I jumped a fence out hunting and we had to turn sharply after it next thing he was on the floor I was surprised he was always very agile.
Christmas eve we went to the hounds the first fence was a wall small he made a










complete hash of it as I lay on the floor I thought there's something wrong with
this horse ( got th
the next morning he had a small soft swelling to the left side of his spine just behind his withers.
At this stage I suspected KS but the vet suspected something further back linked to the unlevel pelvis however the first X-ray to the area behind the withers showed extensive damage a further X-ray to the area around the pelvis showed nothing
With hind sight I fear I started this off by tacking his shoes off he was foot sore for a while and I think that was what probally made a small lurking problem into a huge one.
 
Sorry about that last post iPad malfunction .
When I think back to my youth I can think of several horse who may well have had KS but you did not X-ray on those days the horses just fell by the wayside.
Saddles are much better now than they were when I was young so I don't think it's that.
My horse was hunting in Ireland as a three yo I found this out after I bought him he was 14 when he went.
I don't think theres more I just think that the vets have more tools at there disposal now a days
 
my old mare was backed at 2 &1/2 she went up to medium dressage, i took her on age 13 she was still competing in her 20s she was sound when retired only retired as i dint have time to ride her and the young one, lost her at 33.

my
next horse i had as a foal. backed at 3 & 1/2 dint do much but hack as had no school etc did a little show jumping not much at all and was lame at 12 arthritis of the coffin joint, at 18 he is on 2x bute a day to be field sound

some are just un lucky! and i agree better at detecting than we used to be?
 
My mare has KS, when I asked the vet what caused it she said that it is conformational to start with, but that because she was an ex-racer it would've been made worse by being broken and raced young. She also said that a lot of horses have it and get along in their own way coping with the pain they just may not be as supple etc. as a horse without it - certainly my mare was out competing all summer with no sign.

I think its more that we are better at recognising something might be wrong, and insurance gives us the funds to investigate - whilst vets also have more diagnositic tools available to them.

Like many things I think its always been there - just now we are better at spotting the signs and finding out whats wrong.
 
We have a horse here came out of the racing industry cost over £60,000 guinneas as a yearling but ,but never raced as was thought couldn't cope mentally. Went through two private homes within the space of 4 months and my client then bought him half starved out of a field. Turns out he has KS, just like my ex racer. I had another one too with KS but it never seemed to bother him as he was fine to ride. I do wonder if it is breaking them so early before they have had chance to develop is a contributory factor to the development of KS. I also wonder how many horses out there have the condition and are just labeled as dangerous and PTS?
 
Sorry to hear what happened with you and your horse Goldenstar. If it's any consolation I am pretty sure that taking the shoes off wouldn't have been the reason your horse finally succumbed. The vertebrae rubbing gradually gets more and more inflamed and causes increased discomfort.
I was very interested to read about the swelling beside his withers. I've never read anyone mentioning that before. With my lovely young mare there came a final ride when she just wasn't right and showed it. I hadn't been able to settle her saddle and it kept slipping to one side. When I got off (I was nearly chucked off) I was mortified to realise that she had a swelling to one side of her withers and that was why the saddle had been moving. Two days later she also developed a strange rigour in the big muscle up the side of her neck, it looked as if there were dents in it. After all of this my vet finally saw what I'd been seeing for some time and she was diagnosed by xrays of her back.
It's a sad condition for sure.
I wonder about backing young as well, although I didn't back my horse until she was a proper 4 years old, and then she did very little. I do think in her case it was the result of her fall. A physio I met had a theory that some foals could even get damaged when they were born if they fell awkwardly - who knows?
 
The saddle slipping thing may also be a warning sign. Before I had any ridden trouble with my boy, his saddle always slipped to the left despite both the saddle and his back being even on each side. Nothing I did regarding padding could make it sit right. He had a total of 3 saddles (all checked by saddler) and they all did it.
 
interesting discussion:) I sometimes wonder about the seemingly countless diseases and syndromes that horses have these days compared to years gone by, on the face of it is does seem that they 'break' more easily these days but IMHO i don't think thats the case, i think we're just more aware of behaviour being linked to pain, we have dedicated equine vets rather than livestock vets which means things get investigated in a different way. Vet knowledge is always moving forwards and things which 20 years ago would have meant a definate PTS are now treatable.
So i don't think horses are less hardy or even worked harder younger now, we're just more aware of all the diseases and syndromes:)
 
Ibblebibble said:
interesting discussion:) I sometimes wonder about the seemingly countless diseases and syndromes that horses have these days compared to years gone by, on the face of it is does seem that they 'break' more easily these days but IMHO i don't think thats the case, i think we're just more aware of behaviour being linked to pain, we have dedicated equine vets rather than livestock vets which means things get investigated in a different way. Vet knowledge is always moving forwards and things which 20 years ago would have meant a definate PTS are now treatable.
So i don't think horses are less hardy or even worked harder younger now, we're just more aware of all the diseases and syndromes:)
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Agree with this.

I am of the opinion that 99% of behavioural problems are down to pain or owner/handler mismanagement.
 
Ibblebibble said:
interesting discussion:) I sometimes wonder about the seemingly countless diseases and syndromes that horses have these days compared to years gone by, on the face of it is does seem that they 'break' more easily these days but IMHO i don't think thats the case, i think we're just more aware of behaviour being linked to pain, we have dedicated equine vets rather than livestock vets which means things get investigated in a different way. Vet knowledge is always moving forwards and things which 20 years ago would have meant a definate PTS are now treatable.
So i don't think horses are less hardy or even worked harder younger now, we're just more aware of all the diseases and syndromes:)
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Wagtail said:
Agree with this.

I am of the opinion that 99% of behavioural problems are down to pain or owner/handler mismanagement.
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I agree with the top bit but not the bottom. I think many behavioral problems are also due to temperament. Not in a mean way, just that plenty of horses are just too fearful, have too much anxiety, are too reactive and dramatic, and do not learn easily what will and won't hurt them to be safe to persevere with and for people to have endless patience for.

I do think more KS is diagnosed these days because more people look for it and diagnostic technology has improved.
 
I agree with Wagtail. I was talking to an old man at the pub the other day (I work behind the bar) and he said they had one horse that no one could back, and it was very cold backed. To me this would indicate pain, but they lunged it in a PLOUGHED field until it was nearly on its knees then got on and trotted it up and down the road until it stopped bucking. The horse was always quirky but was rideable. We wouldn't do that today.
There are many causes for a KS, but starting them to early etc is not always the reason to me. Horses were started a lot younger long ago, so its 'modern this and that' is rubbish, and more people are more educated on how to get the horse working properly.
My horse was diganosed with KS, he was backed at 3 very lighlty, turned away until he was nearly 5. He won a lot of showing classes inhand as a youngster and has good confo, and altough not long in the back, is in propprtion.
Intresting he had very wide gaps between the processes at the wither, and therefore less space further down the back. It could be how the horse is positioned in the womb.

Also, rehabing and operating on KS is a new thing, until recently if it was diagnosed they were just shot.
 
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There is something about KS that we don't fully understand imho - it would be interesting to have a whole yard of horses x-rayed and correlate the results against the work that the horses were doing, their history etc.

As with ulcers, I wonder if a large proportion of horses have KS but many don't show symptoms. The only horses that tend to get x-rayed are the ones that are showing sufficient symptoms for a vet check.

Hope it will be much better undestood in the next few years.

Re pain and behaviour - yes you have to rule out pain as a cause before dealing with behaviour (morally), but a lot of behavioural problems that I work with come down to riders not having been taught how to apply horse psychology on a moment to moment basis, even accomplished competition riders/pros.
 
I have to say that in thirty years of caring for horses I have yet to find a horse that was just 'bad'. Even the ones that I initially thought had behavioural issues, it ended up being a physical cause or one that was human made (such as insecurity due to moving too much). If the cause is addressed, the horse usually comes right.

ETA I have to correct myself here. There was ONE mare once that had severe aggression problems towards humans. She wasn't mine and so I had no say in her care. So she may have had physical problems or problems caused by humans, I don't know. All I know is that under tack she was a changed horse and excelled show jumping and dressage, so no obvious physical problems, but never have I been so terrified of a horse.
 
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Very interesting thread. I don't have anything to add really but my Mum thinks its funny I always have back, saddle, teeth done. Her and Dad's hunters had one saddle all their life, never had their teeth done and always seemed fine. They had bucketfuls of oats, boiled barley and linseed and were never silly, although they worked hard.
 
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