Follow up to Dressage critique thread

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Jericho

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Thank you to all those that took the time to look at my thread of daughter on her pony. I took some video of them schooling yesterday so you could see him in a more normal situation and wondered if you would be able to take another look and give opinions on him again. Daughter tried really hard to keep hands level and leg still but as you can see this will take time to improve.

Link to original post http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?743696-Dressage-critique-please

Video from yesterday https://youtu.be/roqjZdjcZS0

Many thanks

X
 
Your daughter has definitely taken the hand comments on board and seems to be trying to keep them stiller and already the picture looks better as a result. I love longer stirrups but I think she might benefit from popping up a hole for the time being, this may help her keep her leg a little stiller and then she can work to having them that length again over the next few weeks.

Horse looks more relaxed in that video than the test video, but there is still a lot of stiffness from behind and he is holding himself quite rigid across his back, as a result, he is struggling to track up.

He's a lovely horse and obviously very willing and your daughter is a kind and sympathetic little jockey. I would be tempeted, if her were mine, to get a vet check and then book an appointment with a Physio.

My sports horse has a draggy hind toe. He has been vet checked- Xrayed etc, no physical cause can be found and he is still actually sound. He has the physio every 3 months now, because that simple action of toe dragging causes him to hold tension in his back after so long, so we keep on top it with regular sessions. It might be that your chap will benefit from regular physio sessions perhaps.
 
I'm still drawn to the off hind a bit, but this looks less grudging than the test video.

I think the issue she has (assuming he is not a bit feely on something behind) is that he's not really through and in self carriage, this is pulling her out of the saddle as he is holding himself rather than working properly. He's a bit against the contact and stiff through his back which means she can't ride the hindlegs under, as it's all blocked. I suspect if she tried to get him more engaged at this stage, he will respond by going against her more or run onto his forehand more.

If you can get him a bit (lot!) more supple and moving though his back I think she will find it easier and it will also help to resolve the hand/leg issues she's having, as part of it is her own strength but she is getting disrupted and shoved about by him too. Bit of a chicken and egg problem, but we all have it in the beginning unless lucky enough to learn on schoolmasters. You can see on a few turns how he is set against her, and I'd want to be using those turns and curving lines to develop the softness. There are moments where it looks promising but then he goes back to being a bit wooden and sometimes I wondered whether the slight unlevelness is caused just by this stiffness. She's doing well, and he looks like a sweetie but for me this is the thing that has to come next. :)

Is there someone that can ride the pony a bit to get him a little softer, so she can get on with him feeling a bit looser and then have an idea of what she needs to work towards?
 
It definitely shows he is not coming through with the off hind, I slowed the video down so it was clearer, if he were mine I would want the vet to look at him and if nothing showed I would get a good physio, my instinct would be that his hocks are just beginning to give him a bit of discomfort, he is the age where these things often start to show, and that is why he is not happy to work as well as he should, not the end of the world as often they come back quickly after appropriate treatment.

He moves slightly better when she asks more but that is accompanied by his tail swishing suggesting that he is finding it harder.
 
He does look better at home but I still think I'd want his back end checked out, for a pony of his age and schooling he should move better.
I suspect when owner rides he probably moves better but my suspicion is that your daughters comparitive lack of strength is showing up his weakness rather than it being her that is the issue if that makes sense!
 
I didn't comment on the other thread, but agree with the other posters that he doesn't look quite right behind. If he was mine I'd get a vet to do full lameness workup, but or at least start by getting hocks x-rayed in case he's starting to get a bit of arthritis (and if they're clear I'd be looking at the suspensories).

He looks like a lovely chap and your daughter clearly has a good partnership with him. She just needs a bit more core strength so she can use her legs and hands independently. Particularly in the canter she looks like she's struggling to stay in balance with him some of the time and looks like she's moving around the saddle quite a bit. But first I'd rule out anything physical with the pony.
 
He looks much more forward in the canter at home. Your daughter seems to really have to do a lot of work to keep him that way though! Once you have ruled out anything physical with him, I'd be tempted to work on her getting more of a reaction to her aids during her lessons.
 
They both look more relaxed at home but the pony is still not going anywhere, does not track up in walk or trot and the canter is very stilted.
I would still go for a lameness worked and shorten the stirrups.
 
his a really lovely pony but I have to agree that his hind end does not look right off hind leg is not coming through and this is the reason his not really using his back which often happens with hind end lameness, they end up making the back sore through compensating.

One of my horses started to feel tense and not really wanting to go forward he also started tail swishing in canter, (which I notice your pony does) so I had his back looked at and it was quite sore, a few leeks later he started to look lame on his nearside hind it tunrned out he had damaged his suspensory ligament, I am not saying your pony has done the same but with the signs he is displaying I would get a lameness work up done as carrying on can often make what's wrong worse, his not very old so hopefully it's something that can be sorted out fairly easily.
 
Oh also is he shod behind? I have my guy's hinds off at the minute and he is definitely more reluctant to collect, especially as they're a bit soft due to the wet. And I agree to get his hocks looked at. Even if they do need medicating it's not a massive financial outlay and can make a huge difference!!
 
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Others have already said about a vet check, so I'll say I agree and leave it there.

The overall impression is that he's not in front of the leg, is on the forehand, and is pulling your daughter forwards. She's compensating for that with her riding. It's hard to tell on the video but I suspect she may be using her knees to brace herself, particularly in canter and particularly on the left side (left foot turned out more than the right one). As a result, the lower leg is less stable (the swinging action).
 
Do you have a bigger rider to spare? Would be interesting to see.
I don't think a basic lameness workup would be the wrong thing to do though!
 
What does your daughter's trainer say? Nice pony and I think your daughter's riding will improve when the pony is more supple in his back and neck as it's very hard to sit nicely on a tight back.(I speak from experience!) I also think it would be worth getting a bigger more experienced rider on him as I think your daughter will struggle to get him properly through until he's a bit more supple and giving. Don't let her get too disheartened, get her the right help and they will make a great partnership. With regard to lameness workup, well, I'd get another rider on first to see what tune they get, he's an experienced pony who knows the ropes and may just be taking advantage of her inexperience to have an easier life.
 
See I think with a bigger rider he will automatically look better but that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't an issue. I can make mine look sounder but really he isn't ;)
 
ester said:
See I think with a bigger rider he will automatically look better but that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't an issue. I can make mine look sounder but really he isn't ;)
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He might automatically look better, or he might kick off if something is hurting and he's asked to work through it ;) Could go either way.

I think it's worth trying to get something up her sleeve though in the event that vet doesn't find anything because it would probably be the easiest way to help her daughter get the pony going better :)
 
I was saying that because the OP on the other thread said when the owner rides him he goes very differently but that they ride him very differently too, - and no reports of him kicking off - I was only making it in response to the suggestion of using it as a tool to check for a problem i.e. If he goes better he must be fine not as part of a holistic approach going forwards with regards to his schooling etc.
 
be positive said:
It definitely shows he is not coming through with the off hind, I slowed the video down so it was clearer, if he were mine I would want the vet to look at him and if nothing showed I would get a good physio, my instinct would be that his hocks are just beginning to give him a bit of discomfort, he is the age where these things often start to show, and that is why he is not happy to work as well as he should, not the end of the world as often they come back quickly after appropriate treatment.

He moves slightly better when she asks more but that is accompanied by his tail swishing suggesting that he is finding it harder.
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This, he is not totally right behind.

Your daughter needs to sit back on her seat bones more, rotate the pelvis back as if she has money (or sat on her favourite actors or singers hands) then relax into the saddle.
Also try to get her not to put so much weight through the heels, they need to be a shock absorption not kept stiff.
Weigjt in ball of foot and let the heel bounce slightly.

Havr a lesson form a good bio mechanics instructor, it's worth its weight in gold.

She is a lovely rider
 
I noticed that in the original test video and the home video your daughter is riding on the wrong trot diagonal at times and not checking it. It could be that the pony favours one way so will automatically put her on that diagonal by always stepping into trot with the same front/hind leg or that she finds one diagonal more comfortable without being concious about it because the pony is softer one way - this would also go with the one hind leg being stiffer. I didn't study either vid well enough to notice whether it was always one rein or the wrong diagonal on both reins!
 
Again thank you for all your comments and advice. Everything you are all saying is definitely ringing true. His old owner is much tougher on him and really makes him work and he does look a very different horse. Holds him much more and gets after him and then he goes ok and he really can look very supple - happily half passing and canter pirouetting - although he does still tail swish a lot but with ears pricked if that makes sense. He clearly finds it quite hard work and his conformation doesn't help him but he seems to enjoy the challenge and likes to 'think'. He will literally put his bridle on and marches to the arena ears pricked! I do agree that he very much 'holds' himself and is not stepping through and the physio has picked up on this and been working on it. When my daughter has had a lesson with her good instructor and they have really got going he does activate those back legs and steps through but I feel very uncomfortable thinking that he is trying hard through any pain because he is such a good boy and he doesn't move like a horse that is particularly comfortable. Having said that put him out on a cross country course and show jumping he is much freer but I realise adrenaline can mask any pain.

Anyway, moving forwards, I had a good chat with his vet today who has known him since he was 5 and I sent him the videos - he wasn't too concerned and said he has to a certain extent always held himself because that was the way he was ridden although the shortness and tightness has never been flagged by previous owner as an issue and thus not been investigated. Vet has suggested a Bute trial to see if reducing pain somewhere makes any difference with the view to investigating further. His back has been checked and I have been told it's very strong and muscled. (Saddle has also been checked twice since we have had him) Overall I agree that it is worth investigating alongside help from a more experienced stronger rider plus a few other tweaks like shortening stirrups.

Thanks again for help - sorry for my ramblings and musings, you really have all been a great help x
 
sounds like a plan.
Again, assuming you find nothing worthy of investigation...
Re the stronger rider, I really think they need to teach the pony to be lighter and softer to a gentle aid.. while it is true that your daughter needs to develop her strength (don't we all!) he also needs to learn not to rely on her to hold him together because this will just perpetuate the wooden way of going.
Ponies with his conformation will struggle to achieve the *mega* way of going that horses bred for the job can do, but he can still go well if he is fit and healthy, and any work you do to develop his softness will make his work easier. Good luck :)
FWIW tail swishing can be a sign of pain or discomfort, but it can also be habit or temper - my sec D swishes every time I use my whip ;) she is more than capable of what I'm asking her, she just has to quietly voice her opinion about it
 
Still being brutal here, I don't think there's too much wrong with that pony, but I do think your daughter needs to spend a lot more time developing a really strong seat. She is still not able to ride truly independantly, i.e. with her torso and lower body able to do two different things - she is lifting her hands every time she rises and thus is not able to allow the pony to soften through the head/neck/back/hindleg and be really through and able to move forwards. This also affects the rider's stability, and is the reason why she is so wobbly and tense in the legs - she is gripping rather than sitting, and tipping forwards. This is also why she turns out her lower legs and is very tight in the arms and shoulders. Having a more advanced pony is great, but with any schoolmaster you must also have a really good instructor to get the best out of it.
 
I absolutely appreciate your honesty - she knows she has lots to learn and will never stop learning. I'll talk her through your points. We knew when we took him on it was going to be long journey. She is learning all the time and loves the challenge of it all, just need to keep her positive too and let her have fun too - she still wants to bomb round the field, do fun grid work and fly the jumps, but i am a great believer that all that different riding will give her a good seat and balance as well (as well as keep her and the ponies life varied) She is still only 13 - hard to balance it all, especially as she probably has chosen one of the toughest sports as her hobby!! Should have stuck to football or something LOL

Cortez said:
Still being brutal here, I don't think there's too much wrong with that pony, but I do think your daughter needs to spend a lot more time developing a really strong seat. She is still not able to ride truly independantly, i.e. with her torso and lower body able to do two different things - she is lifting her hands every time she rises and thus is not able to allow the pony to soften through the head/neck/back/hindleg and be really through and able to move forwards. This also affects the rider's stability, and is the reason why she is so wobbly and tense in the legs - she is gripping rather than sitting, and tipping forwards. This is also why she turns out her lower legs and is very tight in the arms and shoulders. Having a more advanced pony is great, but with any schoolmaster you must also have a really good instructor to get the best out of it.
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milliepops said:
Re the stronger rider, I really think they need to teach the pony to be lighter and softer to a gentle aid.. while it is true that your daughter needs to develop her strength (don't we all!) he also needs to learn not to rely on her to hold him together because this will just perpetuate the wooden way of going.
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Yes totally agree with that - the more she tries to sit back and try to get him engage his backend the heavier she says he feels. I know when it is happening as she starts doing lots and lots of transitions to get him lighten so she is developing the feel a little. Again his owner is much better at it and nips it much earlier in the bud and gets him to carry himself more.
 
i read the previous post and didnt comment because everyone had said everything...the pony does look much better in the school but i feel your daughter is working much too hard. this pony shouldnt need kicking every stride and it looks like he is taking the micky. i agree with others that i would have a vet check him and maybe the bute trial is a good step. if the pony has nothing wrong i would work at the slower paces asking him to walk on with a light squeeze, if no reaction i would tap with a schooling whip(not hard) and continue with this until he is sharper off the leg...sometimes they get dead to the aid and just ignore it....he looks like a nice pony and your daughter is doing well the picture just needs a bit of tweeking....
 
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