following on from 'are you tough on your horses'

chestnuttymare said:
Foxhunter, just as a matter of interest, are you male or female?

ets not meaning to be rude, but part of me thinks that these days it seems to be women who have the biggest problem from what i have seen.
Click to expand...

Last time I looked I was a woman! LOL

I am certain that a lot of problems arise from inconsistency. Training anything requires patience and consistency with determination. No one can teach anything unless the 'pupil' wishes to learn and for anything to want to learn, teaching has to have boundaries and be enjoyable with the teacher having no doubt of their ability to get the message through.

A girl that is working here bought a rather moody mare that had been owned by the same person for several years. The mare had little manners in the stable, shied at anything when being ridden and was generally not pleasant animal.
By insisting on the little things like making her step back when entering the stable, standing still when asked, being made to go up to whatever she spooked at, never being rough or harsh, just firm and consistent, it is a different horse. She has gone from a horse that was bossy and if she was lying down she would get up, to a relaxed, I am not getting up just because you are here, horse in a matter of weeks.

I found it amusing that when her old owner came down to see her and she was in the field, she ignored the old owner who had carrots for her and walked straight to her new owner.

A horse, dog or child who has a firm, fair, fun leader is happier than one who has been allowed to take the position of leader.
 
There's another issue here - irresponsible breeding. I can point to several deeply unpleasant mares whose owners could do nothing with so decided to put them in foal. Some horses just have a screw loose and no amount of rehabilitation will make them safe to own and/or ride . . . not only is there a case to be argued for having them humanely destroyed, but on no account should they be bred from.

P
 
Lol, just wondered.
I totally agree that them knowing the boundaries. It's not rocket science is it but so many people seem to have problem horses. I also think it is never too late to teach and old dog (horse) new tricks. Mine wasn't a youngster when i got her, her problem was lack of respect due to il/harshl treatment but she quickly respected fair treatment. It took her much longer to drop her barriers and show any affection. I sought help very quickly as she was too much for me and I didn't feel I had the experience to deal with the problems she had. Believe it or not, it was a mix of parelli and old fashioned horsemanship that sorted us out. I say us as we worked together.
I now have an amazing horse who is a total dream to ride and handle on the ground. Here's the but, I could have so easily been one of these women with a dangerous horse.
There has been so much sense spoken in this thread.
I am sure there is an issue Polarskye also with indiscriminate breeding, but even a bad tempered horse will learn to respect boundaries I think.
 
This is a really interesting post.

I went to see a possible loan horse (before I got my new ponio) who was being kept at his owner's private yard. He was a 15h3 Welsh D. The advert said happy hacker. This is what I observed:

1. He had just been brought in for the evening when I arrived. The owner took him out to show him to me. The whole time we were talking he kept grabbing hold of the owner's jacket, sleeve, hair, shirt collar, fence post. He did the same to me. She just said "oh, he is a silly boy - aren't you - kiss kiss."

2. She then put him back in his stable where he started kicking the door, ears back. She said "oh, that's because he'll be wanting his hay" and she ran to the barn (opposite his stable so he saw he jump to his tune) to get him some.

3. He had his ears back constantly when you went in his stable and turned aggressively if he was eating his hay when you were in there.

4. He was very overweight, particularly round the crest area.

5. He had a specific routine in the summer, out by 6.30am and no later. Then in at 8am (yes am) for a hay break. Then put out again for 3 hours. After he that he would go out again until 6pm then in again where he would be stabled at night. The purpose of this was for the horse to be protected from flies and this was a condition of the loan.

6. She said before he goes to me she needed him to be checked over by his therapist (I kid you not!) to make sure he is ok to leave.

7. He didn't like schooling so she didn't school him. He only liked going out for hacks for up to an hour or he got in a bit of a tantrum because he missed his friends.

I mean seriously, this is a prime example of ownership gone wrong and a horse that has suffered as a result!
 
I agree with many of the posters who say that horses and dogs benefit from knowing who is leader. I believe both like routine and a quiet and consistent approach and that you can change a lot of "bad" behaviour through this. It's worked for me in all sorts of problems - from horses that "won't" bridle to those who barge and bully.

That said, anyone know how I can stop my middle collie barking like a lunatic every time I get ready to take all three collies for a walk? I got her three years ago when she was 9 and we've ironed out loads of problems (chasing joggers, cyclists, cars, having to be muzzled when out, being aggressive towards my 16-year-old collie) but I haven't managed to crack the hysterical "OMG we're going for a walk" barking! That said, that is one problem I can live with so perhaps I haven't been so consistent in tackling it.
 
Foxhunter49 said:
Last time I looked I was a woman! LOL

I am certain that a lot of problems arise from inconsistency. Training anything requires patience and consistency with determination. No one can teach anything unless the 'pupil' wishes to learn and for anything to want to learn, teaching has to have boundaries and be enjoyable with the teacher having no doubt of their ability to get the message through.

A girl that is working here bought a rather moody mare that had been owned by the same person for several years. The mare had little manners in the stable, shied at anything when being ridden and was generally not pleasant animal.
By insisting on the little things like making her step back when entering the stable, standing still when asked, being made to go up to whatever she spooked at, never being rough or harsh, just firm and consistent, it is a different horse. She has gone from a horse that was bossy and if she was lying down she would get up, to a relaxed, I am not getting up just because you are here, horse in a matter of weeks.

I found it amusing that when her old owner came down to see her and she was in the field, she ignored the old owner who had carrots for her and walked straight to her new owner.

A horse, dog or child who has a firm, fair, fun leader is happier than one who has been allowed to take the position of leader.
Click to expand...

Cracking example of a saying we have, 'Your horse is your mirror'.
 
As an ex behavioural therapist (with nonverbal autistic humans), I have to say consistency is key. Someone who reprimands an unwanted behaviour inconsistently will only reinforce and probably worsen that behaviour, or replace one unwanted behaviour with another, also unwanted, behaviour.

Relationship is also important ... As a colleague of mine used to say, 'You have to put cookies in a jar before you can take any out', ie. you have to build a positive reinforcing relationship (food, affection, grooming, play, etc.) before you start making demands. The more positive the relationship the greater the demands you can make! This doesn't mean you don't put boundaries in from the get-go!

Boundaries leave people feeling safe. Just look how society breaks down when authorities withdraw, eg., in the event of major extended disaster! Horses (and other pack, herd, tribe animals) need boundaries too. They (We) feel more secure when they (we) know who's in charge and what their rules are!

This should be done firmly but fairly .... and, as many have already said, consistently! 'Punishment' (from a strong 'No' upwards) must be immediate and proportional, never cruel (This, of course, is open to definition but I can't see a human biting, hitting, shoving or kicking harder than another horse would, and if you're in a dangerous situation then needs must)!

I've had a 30 year break from being in a horse yard and have never owned my own (and probably never will due to funds) but I often feel exasperated by those who fawn and mollycoddle horses as if they're babies (almost like their surrogates)! From what I've seen this tends to be more the part-timer, relative newcomer or emotionally-needy. Those who live and work around a large number of horses all day everyday can't afford to be as soft!

I see folk taking the softly-softly-cotton-wool-baby-waby-wuv-ooo approach with their cats, kids and partners too. More often than not, the resultant behaviour leaves much to be desired ....

I don't think horse-owners (or carers of autistic humans) need to spend a fortune on expensive 'magic' answers. They just need to familiarise themselves with basic behavioural principles and apply them, consistently!!!

:)
 
loladay said:
As an ex behavioural therapist (with nonverbal autistic humans), I have to say consistency is key. Someone who reprimands an unwanted behaviour inconsistently will only reinforce and probably worsen that behaviour, or replace one unwanted behaviour with another, also unwanted, behaviour.

Relationship is also important ... As a colleague of mine used to say, 'You have to put cookies in a jar before you can take any out', ie. you have to build a positive reinforcing relationship (food, affection, grooming, play, etc.) before you start making demands. The more positive the relationship the greater the demands you can make! This doesn't mean you don't put boundaries in from the get-go!

Boundaries leave people feeling safe. Just look how society breaks down when authorities withdraw, eg., in the event of major extended disaster! Horses (and other pack, herd, tribe animals) need boundaries too. They (We) feel more secure when they (we) know who's in charge and what their rules are!

This should be done firmly but fairly .... and, as many have already said, consistently! 'Punishment' (from a strong 'No' upwards) must be immediate and proportional, never cruel (This, of course, is open to definition but I can't see a human biting, hitting, shoving or kicking harder than another horse would, and if you're in a dangerous situation then needs must)!

I've had a 30 year break from being in a horse yard and have never owned my own (and probably never will due to funds) but I often feel exasperated by those who fawn and mollycoddle horses as if they're babies (almost like their surrogates)! From what I've seen this tends to be more the part-timer, relative newcomer or emotionally-needy. Those who live and work around a large number of horses all day everyday can't afford to be as soft!

I see folk taking the softly-softly-cotton-wool-baby-waby-wuv-ooo approach with their cats, kids and partners too. More often than not, the resultant behaviour leaves much to be desired ....

I don't think horse-owners (or carers of autistic humans) need to spend a fortune on expensive 'magic' answers. They just need to familiarise themselves with basic behavioural principles and apply them, consistently!!!

:)
Click to expand...

The confusion arises when people think that by not 'growling,shouting, hitting, thumping, or kicking' horses you are being soft on them. This is far from the case, too much anthropomophism on the side of the pro hitting and on the softly, softly,mollycoddle type folk, horsemanship is totally different to either of these approaches.

As for punishing horses, theres hours of fun in that debate. lol.
 
I put the word 'punishment' in inverted commas because what you really need for established behaviours, if you want to increase or decrease them, are 'consequences'. These can be negatively or positively reinforcing.

You can also put behaviour on 'extinction' which means providing no reaction and/or consequences. This will often work to reduce an unwanted behaviour.

Finally, we always worked on the twin principles that all behaviour has a function and that an (maladaptive/nonfunctional/non-socially acceptable) unwanted behaviour can not be eradicated it can only be replaced, ideally by a more (adaptive/functional/socially acceptable) wanted behaviour.

Whilst I am not a 'punisher' by nature, I think I would reflexively warn a horse off biting or kicking me with a similar response. Worked on my daughter, who only ever hit me once and that was 17 years ago!!
 
loladay said:
I put the word 'punishment' in inverted commas because what you really need for established behaviours, if you want to increase or decrease them, are 'consequences'. These can be negatively or positively reinforcing.

You can also put behaviour on 'extinction' which means providing no reaction and/or consequences. This will often work to reduce an unwanted behaviour.

Finally, we always worked on the twin principles that all behaviour has a function and that an (maladaptive/nonfunctional/non-socially acceptable) unwanted behaviour can not be eradicated it can only be replaced, ideally by a more (adaptive/functional/socially acceptable) wanted behaviour.

Whilst I am not a 'punisher' by nature, I think I would reflexively warn a horse off biting or kicking me with a similar response. Worked on my daughter, who only ever hit me once and that was 17 years ago!!
Click to expand...

I agree with a lot of what you say, however I feel it is a mistake to confuse human behavioural principles with what is going on with horses, if were we training chimpanzees then it might have more relavance. Horses are too subtle for many people and things have escalated to biteing barging or kicking before we are aware of what is going on.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top